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FD Brake Ducts

Old 12-10-03, 02:13 PM
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Lightbulb FD Brake Ducts

Anybody running brake ducts on an FD that would like to share some pictures? I am interested to see how people manage to shoehorn them into the FD's fenders...

I can't imagine how I would accomplish the task on my car - I am running 245/45-16 R3S03's, and there is VERY little room to the inside of the wheel when turned to full lock. However, I am certain there must be somebody out there that has figured out the appropriate routing for the hoses...
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Old 12-10-03, 02:57 PM
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Comp brake ducts? The R1 version comes with a couple of small ducts to direct air to the backing plates but they aren't race ducts. I believe the '99 stock front end also has it's own ducts.
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Old 12-10-03, 03:38 PM
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I have dedicated 3" hose ducted to my backing plates. The backing plates are fabbed from thin sheet aluminum and a fabbed 3"OD tube is welded to the backing plate on the front side. I then route 3" silicon hose from Racers Parts Wholesale from the backing plate to a plastic collector duct under my oil coolers on each side. I use the GTC nose, BTW. Using 265/650x18 slicks there is some rubbing on the hose, so I replace it as needed. I get about 20 track days before needing to replace the hose.
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Old 12-10-03, 05:01 PM
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CWR made carbon fiber brake ducts. They were really just scoops positioned inside the inner fender but could easily have a hose(s) connected to the inlets if you're resourceful, but I have never looked close enough at tire clearance. The hose may actually have to come from the engine compartment or belly pan somehow.

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Old 12-10-03, 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by rotary-tt
Comp brake ducts? The R1 version comes with a couple of small ducts to direct air to the backing plates but they aren't race ducts.
They really don't direct air to the backing plates, they just spill some into the fender area. A closed system with a hose is tremendously better as it will work when the wheels are steered as well and not waste air that entered through the duct in the first place.
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Old 12-10-03, 08:47 PM
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The carbon piece looks nice! That is about what I expected to find, actually. I figured somebody had to make a piece like that!

As for the hoses, that is what I was thinking, DamonB - they would probably have to run in from the inner side of the well, probably from underneath. I just worry about the occassional "off" tearing out the hoses...

bradrx7, you run 265/65x18's? Wow, I thought I had clearance issues in the wheelwell! Is your car lowered significantly? Mine is fairly low, and with just 245/45x16's, at full steering lock, my tires are eating away at the well liner in the front, and I have only about an inch and a half between tire tread and the inner-side well liner. That was the source of my concern with the hoses. Of course, the car never sees full steering lock in practice, but I don't want to be rolling out of the paddock into staging and tear out a hose! Do you have any pictures available? I can snap some pics of the clearance in my wheelwells if needed...
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Old 12-10-03, 08:49 PM
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And yes, the R1's stock ducts are pretty much worthless. Not to mention that my car has none of that "ducting" left anyways.
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Old 12-11-03, 12:24 AM
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Anyone know the price and availability of those CF ducts. They are very nice. looks like they were supposed to be there.
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Old 12-11-03, 05:26 AM
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Originally posted by BigIslandSevens
Anyone know the price and availability of those CF ducts. They are very nice. looks like they were supposed to be there.
i could probally make that, it dont look overly complicated
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Old 12-11-03, 08:15 AM
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Hey DigDug,

I looked into the same thing when I had some serious fade on the track back in September. I found the brake ducts at N-Tech:

http://www.ntechengineering.com/inde...d=6&model_id=2

Unforuntately, Nick was out of them and wasn't going to make another production run as he doesn't have the demand for them. Apparently, the ones for the stock brakes are the hardest to make (due to lack of room down there).

When I spoke to Nick, he suggested I use his competition brake pads so I did for my next track session; they worked flawlessly with no fade what so ever. I'm still thinking of making my own ducts after I get some other problems with my car "just to say I did it".

Are you looking to ducts because you are getting some brake fade or just to get them?
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Old 12-11-03, 08:31 AM
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When I was at the Grand Prix of Denver I saw a different kind of setup on the Trans-Am cars. The had what looked like a small brake caliper, maybe three inches long, that fit over the rotors just like a caliper. They had 3 inch brake ducting coming from them and then routed to the front of the car. I assume that it dumps air directly into the vanes of the rotor. Anyone know where you can get something like that? Or do you know what I am talking about?
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Old 12-11-03, 09:11 AM
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For CWR CF brake duct install and some more pics.
I run these with 275 hoosiers on 17x10.5 front rims. No clearence issues. Not a fully ducted setup but much improved over stock IMO.
http://reganrotaryracing.tripod.com/cwcbrak.htm
FWIW,
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Old 12-11-03, 10:30 AM
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I looked into the same thing when I had some serious fade on the track back in September. I found the brake ducts at N-Tech:
Those would definitely work. So they have trouble supplying them? Maybe I can convince them to make some more...

Yes, I am looking to ducting because of fade. I am running Hawk blues, which are pretty good in terms of fade - for the most part, except for a few isolated situations (like turn 1 at VIR or turn 1 on Summit main), I really have to try to get them to fade. Now I'm looking for something to help with those "isolated situations"! I have heard from numerous people that the FD responds well to good ducting, so I sort of naturally took to that route.

When I was at the Grand Prix of Denver I saw a different kind of setup on the Trans-Am cars.
I have seen these as well - definitely a high-dollar solution (the ones I have seen were CF - fairly intricate). Very nice how they wrap around the rotor to envelop it with cool air, rather than just blowing against the back of the rotor - makes much more efficient use of the ducted air... If I could find these, I would definitely purchase them! However, I have never seen these on any RX7 - only TransAm and ALMS cars. But I wouldn't mind being the first!

I run these with 275 hoosiers on 17x10.5 front rims. No clearence issues. Not a fully ducted setup but much improved over stock IMO.
CrispyRX7, what do you mean "not a fully ducted setup"? Do you run them without hoses or something?
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Old 12-11-03, 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by DigDug
bradrx7, you run 265/65x18's? Wow, I thought I had clearance issues in the wheelwell! Is your car lowered significantly?
Digdug... I run 265/650x18 metric sized Dunlop slicks. this is the equivalent of a 275/35x18 DOT tire. The car is not slammed, but it is lower. My front liners are severly distressed <g> but I do not care and cut thme out to allow the oil coolers to vent anyway.

I'll try to attach a picture of me at Mosport. the car is leaning over in T1 and you can see how low the car gets at speed even though I run 1000/700 spring rates.

Also, the CWC ducts are worthless for track use without adding hoses.
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Old 12-11-03, 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by bradrx7
Also, the CWC ducts are worthless for track use without adding hoses.
I agree. The N-Tech approach seems to be the most common solution found among other racecars and it would also make hose routing easier. Of course it also seems you could build something like that from scratch pretty easily...

Bringing more cooling air to your brakes will provide the same results as bigger brakes without the weight penalties. I remember some GTP cars having water misters inside the long brake ducts to effectively air condition the brake cooling air
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Old 12-11-03, 11:02 AM
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"worthless for track use without adding hoses"
Debatable. Define your parameters and assumptions.
I get no fade at 140+ at VIR T1 and SP T1 using AP front brakes and "unpiped" CWR ducts.
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Old 12-11-03, 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by DigDug
Those would definitely work. So they have trouble supplying them? Maybe I can convince them to make some more...

Yes, I am looking to ducting because of fade. I am running Hawk blues, which are pretty good in terms of fade - for the most part, except for a few isolated situations (like turn 1 at VIR or turn 1 on Summit main), I really have to try to get them to fade. Now I'm looking for something to help with those "isolated situations"! I have heard from numerous people that the FD responds well to good ducting, so I sort of naturally took to that route.
Well, they don't have problems supplying them. They have problems with people not needing them. FD's are rare beast as it is let alone people running them on a track or on a track hard enough to need brake ducts.

You might try some competition pads from N-Tech (or some other place). I was told by several track guys not to use the Hawk pads for the track. The N-Tech FD Competition pads have been great so far (using the stock brakes and Super Blue for fluid). They usually only took a half lap to get warmed up (about 4 turns with hard braking at the track that's close to me) and never faded.

If the competition pads don't do the trick, then you might look into some brake ducts.
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Old 12-11-03, 11:36 AM
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Why would someone tell you NOT to use Hawk pads on the track? The Hawk Blue 9012 compound pads are some of the best track pads available...but they do make one hell of a mess. Sure there are other options but it sounds like the "other track guys" are merely noting a preference and not a deficiency with a Hawk pad as Hawk makes some very good track pads.
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Old 12-11-03, 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by CrispyRX7
Why would someone tell you NOT to use Hawk pads on the track? The Hawk Blue 9012 compound pads are some of the best track pads available...but they do make one hell of a mess. Sure there are other options but it sounds like the "other track guys" are merely noting a preference and not a deficiency with a Hawk pad as Hawk makes some very good track pads.
Crispy
For others experience, they Hawks weren't worth the money (and some still had fade with them). Nick from N-Tech suggested his competition pads and I've been extremely pleased with them so far.

I don't have first hand experience with the Hawk pads at the track myself, only going on what others have experienced and then pasted on to me. So far, they haven't steered me wrong.
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Old 12-11-03, 12:06 PM
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Granted Hawks pads have increased in price significantly over the last few years, are a bit agressive on rotors when cold, and make a nasty dust but I'd challenge anyone who says they are less than suitable for track use. As for Nick...well of course he would say his own pads are better - he wants you to buy his! Not that his pads are any less suitable - they are all good enough. And as for fade with Hawk Blues there are very few folks that I can think of that could beat on brakes hard enough to get blues to fade. If using any other compound - Blacks, HP+, HP, then sure but then again these are NOT *track* pads.
Regards,
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- use of Hawk Blues for 6 years with never a hint of fade
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Old 12-11-03, 12:21 PM
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Yeah, I have to say I like the Hawk blues - they bite very well, and they are very consistent. I only have problems with fade into turn 1 at VIR at about 150, and into turn 1 at SP at about 160. Most of the time, they are plenty sufficient as they are...

I am running stock brakes within stock wheels, to which I have given a lot of thought. The stock wheels make sense for me because A) they are sufficient with the right rubber, and B) I have several sets of them! This limits the possibilities for brake upgrades, but honestly, I can work with the stock setup. I am just looking to get that little extra cooling to (hopefully) get rid of the little bit of fade that I do experience in those high-speed braking zones. Otherwise, I am pretty happy with my current setup.

bradrx7, your overall ride height looks roughly equivalent to mine, so your wheelwell clearance is probably tighter than on my car. Do you happen to have any pictures that show how you routed the hoses to your brakes? I am very interested to see how you ran them, because I haven't come up with a strategy that I really feel confident in. I keep worrying that they will get torn out on track in some convoluted situation...
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Old 12-11-03, 12:47 PM
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DigDug,
hehe can I ask what your engine setup is to hit those speeds at VIR and SP?
TIA
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Old 12-11-03, 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by CrispyRX7
As for Nick...well of course he would say his own pads are better - he wants you to buy his! Not that his pads are any less suitable - they are all good enough.
I didn't call Nick to order Hawk pads from him (or any pads for that matter). I actually call him to order his brake ducts and Shark Mod. He only had a kit for larger brake kits but he said I could modify it to fit. After a little discussion, he said that the competition pads would take care of my problem without the ducts (even though the duct were more expensive).

I'm not even sure Nick sells Hawk pads anyway.
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Old 12-11-03, 02:50 PM
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As far as engine setup, I have a 13B with stock turbos. The key thing is the ECU - it is a one-off unit developed by Peter and Mazda Motorsports back in the IMSA days, and it has maps up to 15lb of boost. The engine is heavily ported, and the ECU was programmed on the dyno specifically for this motor to take full advantage of the breathing capacity. Its level of tune seems to be about as high as you can go with stock turbos and a 13B.

Surprisingly, it is VERY reliable - what Peter and Mazda figured out was that as long as you provide enough fuel, the motor is damn near bulletproof. Thus, foamed fuel cell, dual fuel pumps (each with its own pickup at one rear corner of the cell), surge tank, and bigger injectors. Oh, and I actually change the fuel filter! But once again, the really key thing is the ECU - it knows to run very rich at all times. And of course any efficiency- or emissions-related subsystems have been removed and the ECU doesn't deal with the inputs anymore.

Oh, and 2600lb dripping wet! That has a lot to do with the speeds I am seeing at the ends of the straights, because I can carry a lot of speed out of the preceding turns...

Anyways, sorry to wander off there. I was sorta surprised recently when I went to buy a new set of Hawk blues, and they seemed to have gotten cheaper (about a month ago I ordered them through RPW). I think the fronts were about $90 and the rears were like $60, but I'd have to check the invoice to confirm that. That's not too bad for these pads...

Last edited by DigDug; 12-11-03 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 12-11-03, 02:57 PM
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Back on topic... Mahjik, so do you know these guys at N-Tech? Have you asked recently if they are still not making those pieces? Is it even worth the time for me to email them and ask?
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