FB ITA into something meaner build
02-16-12, 10:03 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
FB ITA into something meaner build
Heya
I figure its time I make a build thread in the race section.. as its an ITA race car that I built, and am now doing some upgrades that are worth documenting for people who have not done them, and may want to in future. I have found many many useful things on the forum over the years, and have learned from others mistakes on the forum, as we all have.
What I have is a 1984 RX-7. It was sold to a friend, and then I did some work on it for him. It was originally a GS, that I put a GSL/w lsd rear in. Then the mazda comp ITA suspension setup, with GC plates, and eibach springs, and tokico shocks. Sway bars, and bushings.
He ended up selling it to my best friend, and I ended up its caretaker while he was overseas "somewhere.....else", doing "something......else"
I did some track days with it, Chin Motorsports. And discovered a lot of the handling anomalies, like bump steer, and the rear binding.
He ended up deciding to go ITA with it. SO in went a fuel cell, and better fuel pump and filter, larger fuel lines, etc. ISC dropped a cage in it. Belts and seat etc were already in it from my earlier work.
He came back in country, and ended up getting a job in the midwest wehre there are emissions, so he was unable to bring the car with him, so I bought it back from him.
I did some SCCA driving with it, and a race or two, befire the 150K mile motor gave up.
I built a nice fresh 12A, new housings, and balanced internals. Tuned and tweaked with RB long collected exhaust.. Its really nice.
Recently I added a 444 Rear to it, so it has some scoot, and it more in tune with the tracks we have in central Florida.
On to the fun.
The biggest problem with the FB when racing IMHO is the goddamn brake rotors. WHAT A PITA.
So after putting up with them for a while.. I decided to go 5-lug. And go with the larger rotors and 4 piston calipers.. as well as rear axles and 5 lug, with FC brakes also.
The next issue.. is the 5 lug rims fitting under the fenders now... so I am going to have to go with making a widebody for it.
I prefer the Mandeville GTU setup with fenders into the doors.. but the few kits available are either not wide enough.. or they are oddly shaped.. or for street cars.. OR.. are prohibitively expensive.
Now.. with the widebody, and brakes/tires.. I need more power.
This will be AFTER Deals Gap Rotary Rally.. I think. Timewise.
Engine options..
My Eprod design, 6-port FC engine with the 3 LB flywheel and quartermaster 5.5" double disk clutch etc.
Or.. the engine my friend Jim Bonsi (Rip) built and raced for the Chimney Rock hjillclimb in the late 70s early 80s. Its a 13B based engine.. that is full peripheral port, and fullll bridgeport. With a 6 barrel fuel injection manifold, and 2.5" exhaust collectors, dry sump etc etc etc. It was making 675@16K to the flywheel N/A. And is pretty monsterous. BUT needs gone through since its been pickled for the last 10 or 15 years, while he was trying to convince me to put it in one of my cars.
SO.
Brakes/Hubs/Spacers
Widebody/Fiberglass GT body
Engine swap
Pics of the progress sofar inc.
I figure its time I make a build thread in the race section.. as its an ITA race car that I built, and am now doing some upgrades that are worth documenting for people who have not done them, and may want to in future. I have found many many useful things on the forum over the years, and have learned from others mistakes on the forum, as we all have.
What I have is a 1984 RX-7. It was sold to a friend, and then I did some work on it for him. It was originally a GS, that I put a GSL/w lsd rear in. Then the mazda comp ITA suspension setup, with GC plates, and eibach springs, and tokico shocks. Sway bars, and bushings.
He ended up selling it to my best friend, and I ended up its caretaker while he was overseas "somewhere.....else", doing "something......else"
I did some track days with it, Chin Motorsports. And discovered a lot of the handling anomalies, like bump steer, and the rear binding.
He ended up deciding to go ITA with it. SO in went a fuel cell, and better fuel pump and filter, larger fuel lines, etc. ISC dropped a cage in it. Belts and seat etc were already in it from my earlier work.
He came back in country, and ended up getting a job in the midwest wehre there are emissions, so he was unable to bring the car with him, so I bought it back from him.
I did some SCCA driving with it, and a race or two, befire the 150K mile motor gave up.
I built a nice fresh 12A, new housings, and balanced internals. Tuned and tweaked with RB long collected exhaust.. Its really nice.
Recently I added a 444 Rear to it, so it has some scoot, and it more in tune with the tracks we have in central Florida.
On to the fun.
The biggest problem with the FB when racing IMHO is the goddamn brake rotors. WHAT A PITA.
So after putting up with them for a while.. I decided to go 5-lug. And go with the larger rotors and 4 piston calipers.. as well as rear axles and 5 lug, with FC brakes also.
The next issue.. is the 5 lug rims fitting under the fenders now... so I am going to have to go with making a widebody for it.
I prefer the Mandeville GTU setup with fenders into the doors.. but the few kits available are either not wide enough.. or they are oddly shaped.. or for street cars.. OR.. are prohibitively expensive.
Now.. with the widebody, and brakes/tires.. I need more power.
This will be AFTER Deals Gap Rotary Rally.. I think. Timewise.
Engine options..
My Eprod design, 6-port FC engine with the 3 LB flywheel and quartermaster 5.5" double disk clutch etc.
Or.. the engine my friend Jim Bonsi (Rip) built and raced for the Chimney Rock hjillclimb in the late 70s early 80s. Its a 13B based engine.. that is full peripheral port, and fullll bridgeport. With a 6 barrel fuel injection manifold, and 2.5" exhaust collectors, dry sump etc etc etc. It was making 675@16K to the flywheel N/A. And is pretty monsterous. BUT needs gone through since its been pickled for the last 10 or 15 years, while he was trying to convince me to put it in one of my cars.
SO.
Brakes/Hubs/Spacers
Widebody/Fiberglass GT body
Engine swap
Pics of the progress sofar inc.
02-16-12, 01:01 PM
#2
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Evolution pics..
In primer after getting all the suspension done..
This pic is at a autocross in Gainesville I believe. The timeframe when I was doing those and Chin Motorsports events with it.
"Fresh" paint before track stickers hit it...
At Daytona..
One of the years at DGRR
In primer after getting all the suspension done..
This pic is at a autocross in Gainesville I believe. The timeframe when I was doing those and Chin Motorsports events with it.
"Fresh" paint before track stickers hit it...
At Daytona..
One of the years at DGRR
02-16-12, 02:50 PM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
FC Inner Bearing Spindle Adaptor.
**Im sure there are other methods to do this.. such as buy it from RE-Speed.. but this is just how I decided to do it.**
As you can see, the FC spindle on the left.. and FB on the right.. the outer bearings are the same, the inner are not.
This being the case.. after a LOT of measurements, I was able to figure the dimentions for making an adaptor that fits over the FB spindle, and allows you to run FC inner bearings. It also accounts for the FC bearing seal, and thickness of the larger Caliper Bracket that wasnt made yet.
Another dimension to be aware of is the diameter of the FB inner bearing seal VS the FC Bearing. The FB seal is larger in diameter than the FC bearing. SO if you get your depth wrong.. your bearing adaptor will either come apart in the lathe as you break through, or it will fail on the car if the spacing is too thin.
Big Ole Lump of hard as heck steel. This was a axle on one of my companys Roadtec milling machines. (Picture 1000 HP V12 twin turbo diesel asphalt milling machine) The axle I believe was off one of the conveyors that had a pump fail horribly. Good hard stuff.
Here it is bored out, so it fits over the FB spindle. Ready to have the FC spindle shape turned into it.
This is a top view of the inside shape of it.
How do you make sure that the bearing adaptor is "true" and has ZERO runout? You make a arbor in the lathe.. and DONT REMOVE IT UNTIL ALL ARE DONE.
More of the heavy steel with a hole bored through it, and a large bolt pressed into it on the hydraulic press. Then the surface is turned to the exact size of the FB spindle. Then a end is made for it, and it has ZERO runout.
Here you see the first spindle adaptor bolted onto the spindle adaptor, and its snug against the face of the chuck. (for measuring the depth of the seat inside, without taking it off the lathe, and getting it out of round.)
Tada Turned down to within a couple thou, of the shape of the FC spindle. This is before polishing it up to take out any turning imperfections.
First "test" adaptor with a very snug slip fit. To allow mock up. The first two are a snug fit, but able to be coazxed off by hand. The last two are an interference fit, and needed pressing on.
Assembled FC hub on the FB strut.
Comparison of the hubs.. FC vs FB.. bleh.
**Im sure there are other methods to do this.. such as buy it from RE-Speed.. but this is just how I decided to do it.**
As you can see, the FC spindle on the left.. and FB on the right.. the outer bearings are the same, the inner are not.
This being the case.. after a LOT of measurements, I was able to figure the dimentions for making an adaptor that fits over the FB spindle, and allows you to run FC inner bearings. It also accounts for the FC bearing seal, and thickness of the larger Caliper Bracket that wasnt made yet.
Another dimension to be aware of is the diameter of the FB inner bearing seal VS the FC Bearing. The FB seal is larger in diameter than the FC bearing. SO if you get your depth wrong.. your bearing adaptor will either come apart in the lathe as you break through, or it will fail on the car if the spacing is too thin.
Big Ole Lump of hard as heck steel. This was a axle on one of my companys Roadtec milling machines. (Picture 1000 HP V12 twin turbo diesel asphalt milling machine) The axle I believe was off one of the conveyors that had a pump fail horribly. Good hard stuff.
Here it is bored out, so it fits over the FB spindle. Ready to have the FC spindle shape turned into it.
This is a top view of the inside shape of it.
How do you make sure that the bearing adaptor is "true" and has ZERO runout? You make a arbor in the lathe.. and DONT REMOVE IT UNTIL ALL ARE DONE.
More of the heavy steel with a hole bored through it, and a large bolt pressed into it on the hydraulic press. Then the surface is turned to the exact size of the FB spindle. Then a end is made for it, and it has ZERO runout.
Here you see the first spindle adaptor bolted onto the spindle adaptor, and its snug against the face of the chuck. (for measuring the depth of the seat inside, without taking it off the lathe, and getting it out of round.)
Tada Turned down to within a couple thou, of the shape of the FC spindle. This is before polishing it up to take out any turning imperfections.
First "test" adaptor with a very snug slip fit. To allow mock up. The first two are a snug fit, but able to be coazxed off by hand. The last two are an interference fit, and needed pressing on.
Assembled FC hub on the FB strut.
Comparison of the hubs.. FC vs FB.. bleh.
02-16-12, 10:41 PM
#4
Scott, stop back by the shop. I'll show you the wide body molds I have for the FB. They need a little work but I think they are Mariah copies. I'm the caretaker of them but they belong to a guy whose car I prep. Funny thing is they don't match the widebody that is on his car...
02-16-12, 11:00 PM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Heya! I will try to come by tomorrow around lunch. I will give a ring before I come over to make sure you are there. ld love to see them and see what they look like, and or what ones they are.
02-17-12, 03:18 PM
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Wheel Spacers/Adaptors
SOoo.. this one was a bit of a quandry for me, as there are several schools of thought.
1st concept..... But some spacers with a big hole in the middle and slap em on the car. The wider they are, the less stud you have to use. Once you start getting to 1/2 inch of spacer you are running out of stud. 1" spacer and you have ZERO stud. So some people pop out the factory studs, and slip in some long ones.. but loose the hub centric design.
2nd concept.... readily available around 50 bucks a pair.
Wheel adaptors that are 1" wide. And NOT Hub centric. They invilve having a aluminum ring that is 1" thick with 10 holes in it. 5 holes to bolt it to the hub.. and 5 holes with studs sticking out.
In what I have found with some research they work on street cars.. within reason.. but they DO FAIL. Google them.
3rd Concept... Spacers above.. but with either a hub centric insert.. OR a hub centric design. Price for a pair goes up to around 140 for a pair. (some cheaper some not) But still aluminum.. and with a measurable fail rate ont eh street.
4th concept... A Spacer that is 1" thick with the hub centric design, and a hub sized boss sticking out to hand the wheel on.. with longer ARP studs.
I decided at first to go with a steel version of the 10 hole design....... that WAS hub centric. SO that I would maintain the hub centric design, but not have the work hardening of aluminum, and the brittleness.
As you see below.. this is the 3 WEEKS worth of work I did to get the design started..before I decided this is dumb.
I started out with a nice big plate of steel from a milling machine frame rail. Nice and thick.. I believe it was 1.5" thick. VERY Hard stuff. One of our welders Ray torched out some 7" circles in it for me.. .(6" needed for the spacers.. so room to turn off the slag)
Here we see one on the mill with the Dykem I was liberal with so I could find the center.
Two of them set up in the mill with the centers aligned, so I could drill them out, and bore the center holes.
Here we have the 3" boring head chewing away on the hard steel.. nice coolant flow going on, to keep the bit cool. Could only take a small pass at a time. 10K was about it.
Getting in there and making some swarf.
Here you can see the shoulder inside the spacer. This will allow the spacer to be hub centric, and then have room for the narrower portion to rest inside the spacer. Another case where you need a shoulder so there is material and thickness for the protruding hub that the rim sits on.
Another arbor, turned from steel, and a bolt pressed into it. It has a shoulder like the hub itself, and is turned so that the spacer will sit flush against the jaws for a little added stability.
Here we have the first one chucked onto the arbor.. that is sitting in my CNC rotary table.
My thought here was to put in my .75" indexed carbide end mill.. and then kick off the rotary table, and let it turn slowly while the mill removes all the high spots, and slag from torching it off.
The thing is.. when chewing away.. the slad was super hard (duh) and I could only take a small pass at a time. So I was ending up making a 10K depth of cut, and around 10K deep into the face. But as you can see... it was cutting a tiny portion at a time. And it was REALLY hard on the end mill and machine....
Back to plan 2... The lathe.
Now.. this chunk of steel is VERY heavy. Picture a weight room weight that is 1.5 inches thick and 7" around.
It was entertaining to fire up the lathe and have that bad boy zing up to an appropriate speed. Then start feeding into the interrupted cut surface.
MANY glowing hot tiny curved shards flying off burning the hairs on my arms.
BUT.. it worked really well and was making a LOT of progress.
Here you can see after about 1 HOURRRRRRRRRRR It was getting most of the high spots turned down to a reasonable size.
After doing this turning for several nights.. getting it down to 6.25" And burning the CRAP out of my arms with glowing hot snips of metal.. I decided to re-think this 10+ pound lump o steel that will be hanging off my wheel.
I started thinking it is time to come up with an alternate plan.. as I had spent many nights getting ONE OF THEM to the point where it was about to need .5" of metal turned off the face of it... which was going to take DAYS on my low horsepower lathe.
1st concept..... But some spacers with a big hole in the middle and slap em on the car. The wider they are, the less stud you have to use. Once you start getting to 1/2 inch of spacer you are running out of stud. 1" spacer and you have ZERO stud. So some people pop out the factory studs, and slip in some long ones.. but loose the hub centric design.
2nd concept.... readily available around 50 bucks a pair.
Wheel adaptors that are 1" wide. And NOT Hub centric. They invilve having a aluminum ring that is 1" thick with 10 holes in it. 5 holes to bolt it to the hub.. and 5 holes with studs sticking out.
In what I have found with some research they work on street cars.. within reason.. but they DO FAIL. Google them.
3rd Concept... Spacers above.. but with either a hub centric insert.. OR a hub centric design. Price for a pair goes up to around 140 for a pair. (some cheaper some not) But still aluminum.. and with a measurable fail rate ont eh street.
4th concept... A Spacer that is 1" thick with the hub centric design, and a hub sized boss sticking out to hand the wheel on.. with longer ARP studs.
I decided at first to go with a steel version of the 10 hole design....... that WAS hub centric. SO that I would maintain the hub centric design, but not have the work hardening of aluminum, and the brittleness.
As you see below.. this is the 3 WEEKS worth of work I did to get the design started..before I decided this is dumb.
I started out with a nice big plate of steel from a milling machine frame rail. Nice and thick.. I believe it was 1.5" thick. VERY Hard stuff. One of our welders Ray torched out some 7" circles in it for me.. .(6" needed for the spacers.. so room to turn off the slag)
Here we see one on the mill with the Dykem I was liberal with so I could find the center.
Two of them set up in the mill with the centers aligned, so I could drill them out, and bore the center holes.
Here we have the 3" boring head chewing away on the hard steel.. nice coolant flow going on, to keep the bit cool. Could only take a small pass at a time. 10K was about it.
Getting in there and making some swarf.
Here you can see the shoulder inside the spacer. This will allow the spacer to be hub centric, and then have room for the narrower portion to rest inside the spacer. Another case where you need a shoulder so there is material and thickness for the protruding hub that the rim sits on.
Another arbor, turned from steel, and a bolt pressed into it. It has a shoulder like the hub itself, and is turned so that the spacer will sit flush against the jaws for a little added stability.
Here we have the first one chucked onto the arbor.. that is sitting in my CNC rotary table.
My thought here was to put in my .75" indexed carbide end mill.. and then kick off the rotary table, and let it turn slowly while the mill removes all the high spots, and slag from torching it off.
The thing is.. when chewing away.. the slad was super hard (duh) and I could only take a small pass at a time. So I was ending up making a 10K depth of cut, and around 10K deep into the face. But as you can see... it was cutting a tiny portion at a time. And it was REALLY hard on the end mill and machine....
Back to plan 2... The lathe.
Now.. this chunk of steel is VERY heavy. Picture a weight room weight that is 1.5 inches thick and 7" around.
It was entertaining to fire up the lathe and have that bad boy zing up to an appropriate speed. Then start feeding into the interrupted cut surface.
MANY glowing hot tiny curved shards flying off burning the hairs on my arms.
BUT.. it worked really well and was making a LOT of progress.
Here you can see after about 1 HOURRRRRRRRRRR It was getting most of the high spots turned down to a reasonable size.
After doing this turning for several nights.. getting it down to 6.25" And burning the CRAP out of my arms with glowing hot snips of metal.. I decided to re-think this 10+ pound lump o steel that will be hanging off my wheel.
I started thinking it is time to come up with an alternate plan.. as I had spent many nights getting ONE OF THEM to the point where it was about to need .5" of metal turned off the face of it... which was going to take DAYS on my low horsepower lathe.
02-17-12, 04:17 PM
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we've the different kind of spacers too. #2 is scary. #1 with longer studs is ok, however the wheels do loosen up in a race (we torque them every pitstop), and if they loosen, the studs break, even arp ones.
the new spacers are hub centric, on the hub and wheel. we still use the longer arp studs, and they are much better.
all these are aluminum, steel might work, but it'll get heavy if the spacer is thick.
BTW this is a cool build, it'll be neat to see where you go with it
the new spacers are hub centric, on the hub and wheel. we still use the longer arp studs, and they are much better.
all these are aluminum, steel might work, but it'll get heavy if the spacer is thick.
BTW this is a cool build, it'll be neat to see where you go with it
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02-17-12, 04:41 PM
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This is very cool.
What I'm interested in is this:
Please post pictures of this....I would like to see it with my own eyes.
What I'm interested in is this:
Its a 13B based engine.. that is full peripheral port, and fullll bridgeport. With a 6 barrel fuel injection manifold, and 2.5" exhaust collectors, dry sump etc etc etc. It was making 675@16K to the flywheel N/A.
02-18-12, 01:31 AM
#9
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Thread Starter
Thanks! I am gonna take some pics Saturday, and try to get more posted if I have time.. but its only 20 percent chance of rain.. but like 60 on sunday.. so may be late in posting.
I will be posting up the design of the spacers I eventually went with...
Thanks!
Dont worry I will get pics uploaed to image shack and likely make a diffferent thread regarfing the design..
BTW I realise I double posted the pic of the spacer in the mill... here is the lathe one.
I will be posting up the design of the spacers I eventually went with...
Thanks!
Dont worry I will get pics uploaed to image shack and likely make a diffferent thread regarfing the design..
BTW I realise I double posted the pic of the spacer in the mill... here is the lathe one.
02-18-12, 02:28 AM
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Amazing work! And chance you'd make and extra set of those handy dandy bearing adaptors to fit the 5 lug FC rotors on? There's some dollars in it for ya and I am a fellow floridian ... your welcome to come to jax to take some molds of my widebodys fenders they are Imsa fenders...
Aaron
Aaron
02-20-12, 02:09 PM
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Amazing work! And chance you'd make and extra set of those handy dandy bearing adaptors to fit the 5 lug FC rotors on? There's some dollars in it for ya and I am a fellow floridian ... your welcome to come to jax to take some molds of my widebodys fenders they are Imsa fenders...
Aaron
Aaron
I can make some.. but Im in a crunch to get things together for DGRR. Also, you can get them from RE-Speed for I THINK 200. Sam is really a good guy to deal with in my experience sofar.
But we can talk offline when I have some breathing room if you dont have a solution after DGRR.
Also.. Id love to take a look at the car. THing is.. Im gonna do the widebody with my sons, and do the learning/teaching thing before they take off for college. It may serve them down the road with thier own 7s. And for that matter any other cars they have down the road.
Awesome, glad to help further additional improvements to a great starting platform. I Loved ITA.. and on track when you go from a streeet car to an ITA car.. on track at full song.. its quite a experience. BUT... after period of time.. it gets a bit tame.
I also got to drive a friends F500 at Sebring Long course.. and took 2nd place my first race. After that... well... the 7 seemed like a big ole taxi cab. braking lame.. cornering lame.. acceleration lame.. everything was sooo slowwwwww and sluggish. It was very sad how lame the performance of a well sorted ITA car is.. compared to nationally competitive, former national champ formula car.
I was either gonna sell all my 7s and go with formula 1000, or DSR/CSR, or turn it into something... else. Obviously I chose.. something elseeee.
02-20-12, 11:42 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
SO after realizing the steel spacers were going to be a complete pain in the *** to machine down to 1" thick, leaving the hub section protruding appx .5 inch, (depending on front or rear spacer) I decided that I was a ******* idiot for not taking a little extra time to plan better.
I decided that making a hub spacer with 5 1" studs, and recessed holes to mount it to the hub was silly. The 10 holes will weaken the steel, but the machining without very high dollar/old school ultra powerful tooling was going to be a pain. My lathe could do the work.. as could my mill, but the cut depths were fairly small.. and it was going to take months to get things sorted.
SO.
I decided to go with a spacer that was 1" thick, and had a .4" protruding hub sized area. The spacer would only have 5 holes penetrating it, that would be used with longer 3.5" and 2.5" ARP studs in front and rear respectively.
Off to Alro metals where I purchased some chunks of 6" diameter of 6061-T6 lopped off in appx 1.5" slices.
However.. as the pics below show... the huge bandsaw they have didn’t cut square... not that any band saw cuts true either way. Close... but never actually true.
This pic you can see the amount of angle as I decided to turn this one to show the amount of angle in the face of the cut.
After truing the surface.. hole was drilled, and then the boring bar chucked in and I began the process of opening the hole out to the diameter of the smaller shoulder of the hub. This being the smaller shoulder where the Dust cap covers the bearing and nut. It is bored clean through the spacer.
Granted the pics are from different spacers.. and out of sequence.. but you get the idea. As seen below.. I am turning the front face of the spacer. After facing both sides and making sure it’s square and true, and the hole is bored properly, I would turn the face down so that it was 1" thick, and had a center hub protrusion that is the proper thickness.
In this picture you can see the recess in the hub side of the spacer, showing the wider region that fits over the hub itself. Hence giving it the hub centric arrangement. The cheap eBay spacers I found DIDNT have this configuration. They were either a 10 hole, or a thinner one with a large hub hole.
Here is a pic of one of the billets on the lathe next to a turned spacer, awaiting time on the rotary table.
Here you can see the spacer getting its 5 holes drilled on the rotary table I converted to CNC. (God I love that thing) The spacer is riding on the hub arbor I turned for the steel spacers I was originally making.
Final product... 1" spacer sitting on the hub and brake rotor. You can see that the stock FC studs are 1" of protrusion. In the center you can see the factory hub nested inside the aluminum spacer.
I will try to get another post up tomorrow to get things caught up from the weekend work.
And yes I took Pics of the engine I may swap in.
I decided that making a hub spacer with 5 1" studs, and recessed holes to mount it to the hub was silly. The 10 holes will weaken the steel, but the machining without very high dollar/old school ultra powerful tooling was going to be a pain. My lathe could do the work.. as could my mill, but the cut depths were fairly small.. and it was going to take months to get things sorted.
SO.
I decided to go with a spacer that was 1" thick, and had a .4" protruding hub sized area. The spacer would only have 5 holes penetrating it, that would be used with longer 3.5" and 2.5" ARP studs in front and rear respectively.
Off to Alro metals where I purchased some chunks of 6" diameter of 6061-T6 lopped off in appx 1.5" slices.
However.. as the pics below show... the huge bandsaw they have didn’t cut square... not that any band saw cuts true either way. Close... but never actually true.
This pic you can see the amount of angle as I decided to turn this one to show the amount of angle in the face of the cut.
After truing the surface.. hole was drilled, and then the boring bar chucked in and I began the process of opening the hole out to the diameter of the smaller shoulder of the hub. This being the smaller shoulder where the Dust cap covers the bearing and nut. It is bored clean through the spacer.
Granted the pics are from different spacers.. and out of sequence.. but you get the idea. As seen below.. I am turning the front face of the spacer. After facing both sides and making sure it’s square and true, and the hole is bored properly, I would turn the face down so that it was 1" thick, and had a center hub protrusion that is the proper thickness.
In this picture you can see the recess in the hub side of the spacer, showing the wider region that fits over the hub itself. Hence giving it the hub centric arrangement. The cheap eBay spacers I found DIDNT have this configuration. They were either a 10 hole, or a thinner one with a large hub hole.
Here is a pic of one of the billets on the lathe next to a turned spacer, awaiting time on the rotary table.
Here you can see the spacer getting its 5 holes drilled on the rotary table I converted to CNC. (God I love that thing) The spacer is riding on the hub arbor I turned for the steel spacers I was originally making.
Final product... 1" spacer sitting on the hub and brake rotor. You can see that the stock FC studs are 1" of protrusion. In the center you can see the factory hub nested inside the aluminum spacer.
I will try to get another post up tomorrow to get things caught up from the weekend work.
And yes I took Pics of the engine I may swap in.
02-23-12, 02:47 PM
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Todays upload covers the install of the brakes, and tires on the FB.
The brake caliper bracket was a no brainer to make.. with two caveats.
On the surface it seems a doddle to make. Simply take the FB brake caliper bracket/dust shiels, and trace the bolt pattern to a template material (cardboard, or somethign stiffer)
Then transpose over the factory FB caliper bracket hole position.
Then get a FC spindle and get the holes from there, and get the witdth, and then figure out the positioning of the caliper for rotor spacing.
SO in other words, make a cardboard template, bolt it up to the strut.. slap on the hub and brake rotor, then slip the caliper on and figure the spacing to clear the rotor properly. Trace the holes over and go from there.
Yes you can get all serious and go into the radial spacing of the holes from the FC spindle center to the perimeter.. but you can also swag it.
I was originall yplanning to go with larger 2 piece rotors, and some calipers like wilwoods, or brembos.. but decided to go with on hand functional for now.
I also made up a aluminum template, from the cardboard with much more precise hole placement to put things together and verify spacing and placement.
So the first issue you will encounter with putting the calipers on the car....
The bottom hole of the caliper.. if you go with the FB location you will not be able to put a bolt into it because of the steering arm. So you are back to the bs of having to unbolt the bottom of the strut to get to things.
SO you need to rotate the caliper upward from that spot.
The second thing to encounter.. is the spacing of the caliper to ensure rotor clearance.
You will ened a washer tacked onto the face of the bracket, so that the caliper is spaced off appx 1/8 of an inch.
Here is my caliper bracket:
Here it is mounted on the right side of the car
Now to fitment.
The FC wheels with a 1" spacer fit perfectly fine.
HOWEVER.. FD wheels DONT FIT. (&*^&*^&*%)
They need an additional 1/4 inch of clearance from the shock.. just like on a FC.
Here you can see the wheel on the left..
Here is another shot... you can see that the 225/60/16 wheel is a bit on the large side for the wheel well.
It will drive with it.. but going over bumps even with the tight suspension.. caused it to rub the fender.
Turning is alll rubbing.
Here you can see the spacing with width vs the fender. As you can see it sticks out... sooo a 225 is a bit too wide for it.
Here you can see what I made the spacers for.. and why I went down this road.
The hoosier cantilievered slicks on the 7" rims. (Bought these from John Berg several years back for my FC EP project)
Cantilevered slick on 7" rim
As you can see.. they are a lot smaller profile. (Car is on jackstands)
And in this shot.. you can see.. a Dew can fits nicely on top of the tire without touching. Soooooo yes.. Fenders are needed.
The brake caliper bracket was a no brainer to make.. with two caveats.
On the surface it seems a doddle to make. Simply take the FB brake caliper bracket/dust shiels, and trace the bolt pattern to a template material (cardboard, or somethign stiffer)
Then transpose over the factory FB caliper bracket hole position.
Then get a FC spindle and get the holes from there, and get the witdth, and then figure out the positioning of the caliper for rotor spacing.
SO in other words, make a cardboard template, bolt it up to the strut.. slap on the hub and brake rotor, then slip the caliper on and figure the spacing to clear the rotor properly. Trace the holes over and go from there.
Yes you can get all serious and go into the radial spacing of the holes from the FC spindle center to the perimeter.. but you can also swag it.
I was originall yplanning to go with larger 2 piece rotors, and some calipers like wilwoods, or brembos.. but decided to go with on hand functional for now.
I also made up a aluminum template, from the cardboard with much more precise hole placement to put things together and verify spacing and placement.
So the first issue you will encounter with putting the calipers on the car....
The bottom hole of the caliper.. if you go with the FB location you will not be able to put a bolt into it because of the steering arm. So you are back to the bs of having to unbolt the bottom of the strut to get to things.
SO you need to rotate the caliper upward from that spot.
The second thing to encounter.. is the spacing of the caliper to ensure rotor clearance.
You will ened a washer tacked onto the face of the bracket, so that the caliper is spaced off appx 1/8 of an inch.
Here is my caliper bracket:
Here it is mounted on the right side of the car
Now to fitment.
The FC wheels with a 1" spacer fit perfectly fine.
HOWEVER.. FD wheels DONT FIT. (&*^&*^&*%)
They need an additional 1/4 inch of clearance from the shock.. just like on a FC.
Here you can see the wheel on the left..
Here is another shot... you can see that the 225/60/16 wheel is a bit on the large side for the wheel well.
It will drive with it.. but going over bumps even with the tight suspension.. caused it to rub the fender.
Turning is alll rubbing.
Here you can see the spacing with width vs the fender. As you can see it sticks out... sooo a 225 is a bit too wide for it.
Here you can see what I made the spacers for.. and why I went down this road.
The hoosier cantilievered slicks on the 7" rims. (Bought these from John Berg several years back for my FC EP project)
Cantilevered slick on 7" rim
As you can see.. they are a lot smaller profile. (Car is on jackstands)
And in this shot.. you can see.. a Dew can fits nicely on top of the tire without touching. Soooooo yes.. Fenders are needed.
02-25-12, 02:56 PM
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Yeppers Heard that already. The slicks I have now are old either way, so are not usable other than for reference. But are good for spacing.
In the garage today, and changing out the rear axles, bearings, seals, etc etc etc etc.
Will take pics and post them tonight if able.
(If you are in the st. pete side of town stop by, or call and Ill give directions)
In the garage today, and changing out the rear axles, bearings, seals, etc etc etc etc.
Will take pics and post them tonight if able.
(If you are in the st. pete side of town stop by, or call and Ill give directions)
03-03-12, 04:17 PM
#18
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Rear Brakes and axles!
Soo I am condensing a couple weeks of work into one post. I didnt take as many pictures as I should have, but these get the point across.
First thing.... I "cheated"
I was looking at time, and the need to do a widebody, or at least have the option.. and I decided to buy the RE-Speed rear brake kit, along with the Moser axles. I had already planned to get eh axles from the start, but the brakes are simply easier if I let them do the hard work and I simply bolt them on.
Here we have the gorgeous beefy axles from Moser.
Here you can see them sitting next to thier RE-Speed (Thanks Sam) rear brake adaptors.
I begin in the press with the nice time of pressing bearings and retainers onto the axles.. no sweat. The RE-Speed large retainers..soooo nice.
NOTICE THE TWO CAST IRON BEARING PRESS PLATES ON THE HARBOR FREIGHT PRESS......
Pressing on in teh studs, with a old (i forget the name.. been working all saturday on server issues) front thing for a 6-port that the crank pulley mounts to.
NOTICE THE STEEL ROUND ON THE LEFT SIDE......
Thats because after the 4th or 5th stud I pressed in.. the Harbor Freight Iron plate SHATTERED!!! And one half of the ****** shot out and took out my left leg. 1 Week later and my knee is still clicking and I still have the healing cut up the left side of my calf. Plus my jeans have a compression hole in it, where the jeans got pulverised when it took me off my feet.
BE CAREFUL!! I am soo glad I didnt have my face down there to watch it. And yes I always wear safety glasses when pressing.
Now here is where we ran into a problem.
I bought a 4.44 rearend from a friend. Complete. And not paying attention.. I simply dropped the rear out of my 7 and slid that one under and bolted her in. Beautiful, tire-shredding power in 2nd and 3rd EASY.
So its time to slap the mosers into the car.. and SURPRISE! They dont fit.... THe rearend in the car is a small bearing rearend... the one I removed 6 months ago was a large bearing rearend (facepalm)
SOOO I have to drop the ENTIRE rear out of the car, and then go figure out which old one out in the attic of the garage was in the car, and is a big bearing.. and then bring it down etc etc etc.
More surprises.. here are the watts link bushings....
10 minutes on the lathe, and Delrin replacements VOILA! (Yes I know all the binding issues etc.. and will address all those issues on the rear geometry in the near future (after DGRR))
Here we have a comparo of the Stock Big bearing axle with the Moser.
Notice the smooth taper, and larger diameter for the majority of the length. Also the smooth taper to the splines.
On my RX-3 I was always shearing the axles right at the splines where the factory had turned the diameter down, and there was a sharp edge.
ITS ROTOR SHAPED!
Dont forget to change the wheel seal!
Factory brakes.. YAWN
New (dirty/used) Hotness!
My son Taylor with his 13.5 wide shoes, bolting up the exhaust after we were all done.. (Yes 6'3" and 13.5 wide can fit in a FB comfortably (in his own 7))
Rim fitment in my next post (Yes I found a combination that works INSIDE the wheel wells.)
Soo I am condensing a couple weeks of work into one post. I didnt take as many pictures as I should have, but these get the point across.
First thing.... I "cheated"
I was looking at time, and the need to do a widebody, or at least have the option.. and I decided to buy the RE-Speed rear brake kit, along with the Moser axles. I had already planned to get eh axles from the start, but the brakes are simply easier if I let them do the hard work and I simply bolt them on.
Here we have the gorgeous beefy axles from Moser.
Here you can see them sitting next to thier RE-Speed (Thanks Sam) rear brake adaptors.
I begin in the press with the nice time of pressing bearings and retainers onto the axles.. no sweat. The RE-Speed large retainers..soooo nice.
NOTICE THE TWO CAST IRON BEARING PRESS PLATES ON THE HARBOR FREIGHT PRESS......
Pressing on in teh studs, with a old (i forget the name.. been working all saturday on server issues) front thing for a 6-port that the crank pulley mounts to.
NOTICE THE STEEL ROUND ON THE LEFT SIDE......
Thats because after the 4th or 5th stud I pressed in.. the Harbor Freight Iron plate SHATTERED!!! And one half of the ****** shot out and took out my left leg. 1 Week later and my knee is still clicking and I still have the healing cut up the left side of my calf. Plus my jeans have a compression hole in it, where the jeans got pulverised when it took me off my feet.
BE CAREFUL!! I am soo glad I didnt have my face down there to watch it. And yes I always wear safety glasses when pressing.
Now here is where we ran into a problem.
I bought a 4.44 rearend from a friend. Complete. And not paying attention.. I simply dropped the rear out of my 7 and slid that one under and bolted her in. Beautiful, tire-shredding power in 2nd and 3rd EASY.
So its time to slap the mosers into the car.. and SURPRISE! They dont fit.... THe rearend in the car is a small bearing rearend... the one I removed 6 months ago was a large bearing rearend (facepalm)
SOOO I have to drop the ENTIRE rear out of the car, and then go figure out which old one out in the attic of the garage was in the car, and is a big bearing.. and then bring it down etc etc etc.
More surprises.. here are the watts link bushings....
10 minutes on the lathe, and Delrin replacements VOILA! (Yes I know all the binding issues etc.. and will address all those issues on the rear geometry in the near future (after DGRR))
Here we have a comparo of the Stock Big bearing axle with the Moser.
Notice the smooth taper, and larger diameter for the majority of the length. Also the smooth taper to the splines.
On my RX-3 I was always shearing the axles right at the splines where the factory had turned the diameter down, and there was a sharp edge.
ITS ROTOR SHAPED!
Dont forget to change the wheel seal!
Factory brakes.. YAWN
New (dirty/used) Hotness!
My son Taylor with his 13.5 wide shoes, bolting up the exhaust after we were all done.. (Yes 6'3" and 13.5 wide can fit in a FB comfortably (in his own 7))
Rim fitment in my next post (Yes I found a combination that works INSIDE the wheel wells.)
03-04-12, 12:29 AM
#19
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Very cool stuff you've been tackling. Mind taking some pictures of how the fuel cell is installed? I think I'm going that route after finding a trashed stock tank on the track car I'm building.
03-04-12, 11:23 AM
#20
I have one in my RX7 and zero plans to ever put one in another car unless mandated by the rules.
03-04-12, 11:19 PM
#21
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Its a 15 gallon thats been in the car leak free, foam still perfect for around 10 years now. LOL I keep checking things.. and its still in excellent shape.
Its a Fuel Safe, and it has a surge tank, and fuel level sender in the top, plus rollover valves.
I look at it like this..... If you are rolling down the track and something goes wrong.. and you tumble, and or get rear ended, or things go horribly awry.. I will be sitting there on fire wishing I had spent the 800-1200 for a fuel cell. There used to be more clips of cars racing without a fuel cell having it turn into a ball of fire.. and there were a few when things go badly, and the car starts tumbling.. and the fuel cell rips free of the car.. leaving the car without 15 gallons or so of fuel waiting to burn.
Basically... Got in the center of the car, cut out a rectangle where the spare tire well was, and dropped it down into the hole. Two 1/4" by 2" wide metal straps over it, with large bolts and plates backing them.
Over the top of the fuel cell there is an aluminum box over it. Silicone down, and riveted over the fuel cell. It has a square hatch with a 1/4 turn fastner to close it. That way it can be fueled etc, and meets the letter of the rules.
I will try to get some pics of it Monday evening after work.
03-05-12, 11:55 AM
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
MONDAYMONDAYMONDAYYYY
SO I was able with my sons, to go through the pile of rim/tire combinations we have for the FC/FD and come up with a combination that actually fits on the car without needing to roll fenders, or do the widebody yet....
The cantileivered slicks are nice.. and will be alright for some road racing, but I already had surmised that the radials are a much better solution. However I already had two sets of of rims with the slicks mounted. SO I decided to see whats needed to get them on.
As you can see from these pics.. they fit... as long as I dont go over bumps.
These are 7" wide rims, with slicks that end up with 9-10 inches of rubber on the ground. Originally for Eprod. Howeverrrrr... since I am not limiting myself to a specific rule set yet... I have options.
Car on the ground, rims on. Spacers on.
Here we have a view over the fender with the tires sticking out nicely. Almost 2 inches in back. (IIRC it was 1.5 inches out front)
Back 3/4 view. They are not too bad.You can barely see the fronts. Yep meatyyyy.
Here we have the first contender in a rear rim/tire combination that fits.
THis is a FD rim.. with a 225/45/16 Michelin Pilot on it. Clears the inner non-spinny bits, and clears the fender. Plus the rim width is nice. I think it was 8"
Up front we have a FC stock 16" rim. THis is a 16x7 I believe. And it is running a 205/55/16 I believe. It might be a 205/50. But I will verify when I get home.
It fits nice, and clears while turning and going over bumps.
I took her out with the tire/rim/brake combo.. and she rode real nice.
A goodly amount of traction. I think similar to the amount available previously with the FB rims and 205/60/13 SPec racer DOT race tires on it.
I think that if I get the crap tires off the front, and replace them with some decent rubber.. I should have a combination that will handle decently for the bits of street driving, and DGRR that lies ahead for the short term.
And yes.. the FC rims in a 16 will fit the rear nicely. BUT I need to have a 205/50/55 on them to clear the fender.
Also the FD rims do NOT clear the coil overs in the front. The 1" spacer is NOT enough. I need another 3/8" to clear the springs. Converting it to FC hubs, and using a 1" spacer gets me back to the same place a FC is normally, clearance to shock wise.
I will see what Pics I have here at work and see about the fuel cell pics. I may just do another post in the NA section to toss pics of the possible engine up. I will most likely bring that with to DGRR. But kinda still up in the air if I will have room, and a safe place to keep it.
SO I was able with my sons, to go through the pile of rim/tire combinations we have for the FC/FD and come up with a combination that actually fits on the car without needing to roll fenders, or do the widebody yet....
The cantileivered slicks are nice.. and will be alright for some road racing, but I already had surmised that the radials are a much better solution. However I already had two sets of of rims with the slicks mounted. SO I decided to see whats needed to get them on.
As you can see from these pics.. they fit... as long as I dont go over bumps.
These are 7" wide rims, with slicks that end up with 9-10 inches of rubber on the ground. Originally for Eprod. Howeverrrrr... since I am not limiting myself to a specific rule set yet... I have options.
Car on the ground, rims on. Spacers on.
Here we have a view over the fender with the tires sticking out nicely. Almost 2 inches in back. (IIRC it was 1.5 inches out front)
Back 3/4 view. They are not too bad.You can barely see the fronts. Yep meatyyyy.
Here we have the first contender in a rear rim/tire combination that fits.
THis is a FD rim.. with a 225/45/16 Michelin Pilot on it. Clears the inner non-spinny bits, and clears the fender. Plus the rim width is nice. I think it was 8"
Up front we have a FC stock 16" rim. THis is a 16x7 I believe. And it is running a 205/55/16 I believe. It might be a 205/50. But I will verify when I get home.
It fits nice, and clears while turning and going over bumps.
I took her out with the tire/rim/brake combo.. and she rode real nice.
A goodly amount of traction. I think similar to the amount available previously with the FB rims and 205/60/13 SPec racer DOT race tires on it.
I think that if I get the crap tires off the front, and replace them with some decent rubber.. I should have a combination that will handle decently for the bits of street driving, and DGRR that lies ahead for the short term.
And yes.. the FC rims in a 16 will fit the rear nicely. BUT I need to have a 205/50/55 on them to clear the fender.
Also the FD rims do NOT clear the coil overs in the front. The 1" spacer is NOT enough. I need another 3/8" to clear the springs. Converting it to FC hubs, and using a 1" spacer gets me back to the same place a FC is normally, clearance to shock wise.
I will see what Pics I have here at work and see about the fuel cell pics. I may just do another post in the NA section to toss pics of the possible engine up. I will most likely bring that with to DGRR. But kinda still up in the air if I will have room, and a safe place to keep it.
03-05-12, 02:39 PM
#24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Engine option
So here is the engine.
This is a 13B.
The engine was built by my friend Jim Bonsi (Rip)
As I mentioned before it was in a Lola chassis with wings, and 4 wheel steering. It was used for hillclimb. CHimney Rock is where he used to run it.
It is a full Bridgeport engine with peripheral port rotor housings.
Fuel Injection is a 6 barrel throttle body, and it has 6 Injectors.
The fuel injection was a bosch system originally, and from what I remember JB saying, they had to have someone come into town to tune the thing. Granted this was late 70s early 80s IIRC.
Engine is a dry sump as you see.
Some things done..
balanced, lightened, dry sump, oil squiters behind apex seals, 16K redline, many many modifications and porting adjustments to the housings, oil and water passages.
There are many many things done to it.
HP on a engine dyno was 675 to the flywheel.
I am planning to go through the engine, take it down, and make sure everythign is still alright from sitting. It was pickled, so it should be ok. But I wont know till I take it down completely and then spec it all out and re-assemble it.
The progressive throttle body linkage is visable, and it allowed it to bring in the primaries, secondaries, and peripheral ports at a progression that you can adjust with the linkages. The way its configured curently.. Primary and secondary are linked after a small amount of throttle. Then after WOT for those.. the Peripheral ports open. This was to help the car NOT spin when applying throttle at low speeds. He used to have issues with it getting out of control at low speeds when mashing the throttle out of turns.
I wont be taking pictures that I will be distributing etc.. sorry. GOnna document it all for myself and likely Evil Aviator. Will have him down for the teardown I think. But other than that.. These are all the pics Im comfy uploading currently.
So here is the engine.
This is a 13B.
The engine was built by my friend Jim Bonsi (Rip)
As I mentioned before it was in a Lola chassis with wings, and 4 wheel steering. It was used for hillclimb. CHimney Rock is where he used to run it.
It is a full Bridgeport engine with peripheral port rotor housings.
Fuel Injection is a 6 barrel throttle body, and it has 6 Injectors.
The fuel injection was a bosch system originally, and from what I remember JB saying, they had to have someone come into town to tune the thing. Granted this was late 70s early 80s IIRC.
Engine is a dry sump as you see.
Some things done..
balanced, lightened, dry sump, oil squiters behind apex seals, 16K redline, many many modifications and porting adjustments to the housings, oil and water passages.
There are many many things done to it.
HP on a engine dyno was 675 to the flywheel.
I am planning to go through the engine, take it down, and make sure everythign is still alright from sitting. It was pickled, so it should be ok. But I wont know till I take it down completely and then spec it all out and re-assemble it.
The progressive throttle body linkage is visable, and it allowed it to bring in the primaries, secondaries, and peripheral ports at a progression that you can adjust with the linkages. The way its configured curently.. Primary and secondary are linked after a small amount of throttle. Then after WOT for those.. the Peripheral ports open. This was to help the car NOT spin when applying throttle at low speeds. He used to have issues with it getting out of control at low speeds when mashing the throttle out of turns.
I wont be taking pictures that I will be distributing etc.. sorry. GOnna document it all for myself and likely Evil Aviator. Will have him down for the teardown I think. But other than that.. These are all the pics Im comfy uploading currently.
