Calling out wingless FD owners
12-10-07, 02:13 AM
#1
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Calling out wingless FD owners
I'm going to be doing some track days next season and wanted to get some feedback from wingless FD owners. Does it feel sketchy at speed? I previously have done autocross and it felt a little light in the rear around some higher speed sweepers. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
12-10-07, 07:31 AM
#2
Old Rotary Dog
No, the car feels fine w/o the rear wing at 120+ down the back straight at VIR. Make sure that you have a good alignment on the car, though. Also look at your suspension components and make sure your bushings are all in good shape.
If the rear is feeling "light" at Auto-X speeds (<60mph) your problem is not related to any wing. The stock wing, in any case, does very little it anything in terms of downforce or air smoothing.
-bill
If the rear is feeling "light" at Auto-X speeds (<60mph) your problem is not related to any wing. The stock wing, in any case, does very little it anything in terms of downforce or air smoothing.
-bill
12-10-07, 06:10 PM
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Thanks. I was using the stock springs and dampers on autocross which probably has a lot to do with it. I'm planing on getting coilovers and some links before next season.
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12-11-07, 01:17 PM
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You don't need any aerodynamic device on your 3rd gen until you have a seriously built, specialized, track car.
Friends (who are far more knowledgable than I) have thousands of track miles and over a decade of experience track tuning the FD. At serious speeds, in a fully prepped car, it has been found that an airfoil mounted high in wind (like a GTC wing, but higher) does help rear downforce at speeds over 100mph.
The caveat is that commensurate front aero needs to be utilized in order to attempt to keep the car balanced. Whether it is a splitter, canards or a combination of both, one needs to further plant the front of the car to work well with a large rear air foil.
Basically, there is no benefit whatsoever unless you are driving at the upper reaches of capability of the chassis. It's particularly absurd to expect airflow to have an impact on handling on an autox course in a street car. It's just not logical or possible given the known laws of physics.
The factory wing at autox speeds would be lucky to compress the rubber gasket that seals the hatch much less provide any meaningful downforce to the chassis.
Friends (who are far more knowledgable than I) have thousands of track miles and over a decade of experience track tuning the FD. At serious speeds, in a fully prepped car, it has been found that an airfoil mounted high in wind (like a GTC wing, but higher) does help rear downforce at speeds over 100mph.
The caveat is that commensurate front aero needs to be utilized in order to attempt to keep the car balanced. Whether it is a splitter, canards or a combination of both, one needs to further plant the front of the car to work well with a large rear air foil.
Basically, there is no benefit whatsoever unless you are driving at the upper reaches of capability of the chassis. It's particularly absurd to expect airflow to have an impact on handling on an autox course in a street car. It's just not logical or possible given the known laws of physics.
The factory wing at autox speeds would be lucky to compress the rubber gasket that seals the hatch much less provide any meaningful downforce to the chassis.
12-12-07, 08:58 PM
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Basically, there is no benefit whatsoever unless you are driving at the upper reaches of capability of the chassis. It's particularly absurd to expect airflow to have an impact on handling on an autox course in a street car. It's just not logical or possible given the known laws of physics.
The factory wing at autox speeds would be lucky to compress the rubber gasket that seals the hatch much less provide any meaningful downforce to the chassis.
The factory wing at autox speeds would be lucky to compress the rubber gasket that seals the hatch much less provide any meaningful downforce to the chassis.
Wow!
Thanks, but don't be such an elitist. You made many assumptions that seemed to generate a much more complicated question than I was presenting. My question was about the feel at higher speeds on the track. I don't care about the factory wing because I know it's mostly useless. The only reason I spoke of autocross was to point out the lightness I felt at slower speeds(55-65). I know aero doesn't play a meaningful role during autocross. I wanted to see if my "lightness" would become worse once aero does come into play. Obviously some issues are my 15 year old suspension and aggressive auto cross alignment.This is why I don't post much on this forum.
Every thread has that one sometimes two guys puffing up their chests saying, "Hey stupid listen to me, because I've got stuff to say."
12-13-07, 07:17 AM
#11
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on balance there was correct advice offered in this thread.
i have run a number of times at Brainerd Int'l Raceway (Minn). it offers a 6000 foot main straight that you enter around 80 mph. at the end of the straight is a wide radiused banked 90 degree turn that you don't have to lift for in my FD.
generally i was not looking at the speedo in that turn but i am sure i was running over 165. i did pedal it just a touch prior to entry (no brakes) because i was running on Toyo street tires w no cage etc.
i run the R1 splitter and no rear wing w a 25 inch ride height. at the time i was running 18 X 8.5 fr and 18 X 10 rear.
the composure of the car was such i could have been reading a newspaper in turn 1. absolutely solid. i run 8/6 spring rate.
as wranklin correctly states... alignment is key as well as bushings.
i recommend the following settings:
30 psi cold front
27 cold rear
bleed down after each session and monitor pressure w a pyrometer.
1.2 neg camber front and rear.
monitor and adjust at the track if you want to go fast.
toe in less than an 1/8th front. zero rear.
25 inch ride height.
as we all know aero is very very important as speed builds. one year at the Runoffs at Road Atlanta (pre-chicane) going into the last qualifying session i was gridded third. we decided to take the factory spoiler off and see if we could improve. the spoiler is tiny on the RX3 and sits in a spot where it shouldn't catch much air. i was blown away by how it screwed up my car. i couldn't flatfoot the top of the hill before the big dip at the end of the long back straight. on the other side of the course w the esses which is 3rd gear mostly the car was slow. all due to the removal of a spoiler that weighed less than a pound and was pop riveted on my rear deck. even in 3rd gear.
my real point is that we all need to be very very careful w aero. keep in mind that as the wing adds weight to the rear of the car it removes front weight. some of the rear spoilers i see....
my car is about ready to get back on the track in 08. i do plan to add an approx 2 inch blade spoiler to the rear.
bushings are important too. you probably already know this from autocross. the bushing that really really needs to be replaced is the big rubber bushing at the front of the lower longitudinal arm at the rear of the car. under braking and acceleration you lose toe settings. the other set that needs replacement is the diff bushings. the rest of the bushings are fine left stock other than the pillow ***** which are a maintainence item.
good luck,
howard coleman
i have run a number of times at Brainerd Int'l Raceway (Minn). it offers a 6000 foot main straight that you enter around 80 mph. at the end of the straight is a wide radiused banked 90 degree turn that you don't have to lift for in my FD.
generally i was not looking at the speedo in that turn but i am sure i was running over 165. i did pedal it just a touch prior to entry (no brakes) because i was running on Toyo street tires w no cage etc.
i run the R1 splitter and no rear wing w a 25 inch ride height. at the time i was running 18 X 8.5 fr and 18 X 10 rear.
the composure of the car was such i could have been reading a newspaper in turn 1. absolutely solid. i run 8/6 spring rate.
as wranklin correctly states... alignment is key as well as bushings.
i recommend the following settings:
30 psi cold front
27 cold rear
bleed down after each session and monitor pressure w a pyrometer.
1.2 neg camber front and rear.
monitor and adjust at the track if you want to go fast.
toe in less than an 1/8th front. zero rear.
25 inch ride height.
as we all know aero is very very important as speed builds. one year at the Runoffs at Road Atlanta (pre-chicane) going into the last qualifying session i was gridded third. we decided to take the factory spoiler off and see if we could improve. the spoiler is tiny on the RX3 and sits in a spot where it shouldn't catch much air. i was blown away by how it screwed up my car. i couldn't flatfoot the top of the hill before the big dip at the end of the long back straight. on the other side of the course w the esses which is 3rd gear mostly the car was slow. all due to the removal of a spoiler that weighed less than a pound and was pop riveted on my rear deck. even in 3rd gear.
my real point is that we all need to be very very careful w aero. keep in mind that as the wing adds weight to the rear of the car it removes front weight. some of the rear spoilers i see....
my car is about ready to get back on the track in 08. i do plan to add an approx 2 inch blade spoiler to the rear.
bushings are important too. you probably already know this from autocross. the bushing that really really needs to be replaced is the big rubber bushing at the front of the lower longitudinal arm at the rear of the car. under braking and acceleration you lose toe settings. the other set that needs replacement is the diff bushings. the rest of the bushings are fine left stock other than the pillow ***** which are a maintainence item.
good luck,
howard coleman
12-13-07, 07:45 AM
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Wow! Thanks, but don't be such an elitist. You made many assumptions that seemed to generate a much more complicated question than I was presenting. My question was about the feel at higher speeds on the track. I don't care about the factory wing because I know it's mostly useless. The only reason I spoke of autocross was to point out the lightness I felt at slower speeds(55-65). I know aero doesn't play a meaningful role during autocross. I wanted to see if my "lightness" would become worse once aero does come into play. Obviously some issues are my 15 year old suspension and aggressive auto cross alignment.
This is why I don't post much on this forum. Every thread has that one sometimes two guys puffing up their chests saying, "Hey stupid listen to me, because I've got stuff to say."
Thanks, but don't be such an elitist. You made many assumptions that seemed to generate a much more complicated question than I was presenting. My question was about the feel at higher speeds on the track. I don't care about the factory wing because I know it's mostly useless. The only reason I spoke of autocross was to point out the lightness I felt at slower speeds(55-65). I know aero doesn't play a meaningful role during autocross. I wanted to see if my "lightness" would become worse once aero does come into play. Obviously some issues are my 15 year old suspension and aggressive auto cross alignment.This is why I don't post much on this forum.
Every thread has that one sometimes two guys puffing up their chests saying, "Hey stupid listen to me, because I've got stuff to say."Nothing in my response was chest pounding or elitest. In fact, I state that I am not an expert, but I do spend lots of time at racetracks with people who are considered knowledgable on the subject.
I am sorry if you think my response was harsh. It wasn't intended as such.
Aero is a post-graduate level subject commonly discussed on the internet by people without enough knowledge to fill a thimble. I was simply relating what I know to be fact. There's no reason for you to chase handling issues with your car by looking at aero FIRST. My response basically said that once you have addressed each and every component of the car, and maxxed out your driving skill THEN and only then will aero components give you any real benefit.
12-13-07, 03:18 PM
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The bigger the better! I love the huge carbon fiber gt wings tey are just too much money. And sorry all you fast and furious lovers but this style has been around BEFORE that stupid movie. When I had my supra everyone was like " what kind of car is that?" Then after that stupid movie it was like" Oh thats the fast and the furious car! AAAHHHHH .
Anyway, back to the subject...I thought I noticed a difference at high speed. I'm not a track racer but, I think it feels tighter in the rear with the wing. I'm talking about 120-175mph.
Anyway, back to the subject...I thought I noticed a difference at high speed. I'm not a track racer but, I think it feels tighter in the rear with the wing. I'm talking about 120-175mph.
12-13-07, 03:25 PM
#15
ShineAuto are looking to create one. There have been some in the past, but they aren't made anymore. However, those will not generate as much downforce as a GT style wing and they will not be adjustable like a GT style wing. If you find that you need a wing for the track, you should get something that is adjustable so you can dial in the amount of downforce needed for a given track.
12-13-07, 03:54 PM
#16
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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this is approximately what is going on my car. it may be a tad shorter and may have adj height. (also different mounting hardware)
wings are differing things to people. the old show or go deal. i am in the "go" category and am looking for just a touch of downforce, ideally adj, w a very low visual profile.
if you like a big wing that's fine w me. we can't all be divorced from the same woman.
wings are differing things to people. the old show or go deal. i am in the "go" category and am looking for just a touch of downforce, ideally adj, w a very low visual profile.
if you like a big wing that's fine w me. we can't all be divorced from the same woman.
12-13-07, 04:28 PM
#17
Now I'm not advocating that you *need* a wing for road racing, but here's a thread which talks a little about it:
https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech-103/whos-running-big-wing-fds-time-attack-600325/
The main post to note:
For the original poster, it's not required. The FD handles just fine without one. However, they can enhance your driving.
https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech-103/whos-running-big-wing-fds-time-attack-600325/
The main post to note:
I figure I'd get back and post some feedback on the Wing. I installed the APR GTC 200 wing and it definately made a difference. I dropped 2 seconds off my lap times. 1:11's to 1:09's at Phoenix international. I made no other changes.
The main difference is in the Nascar oval portion of the track(speeds near 90-120mph), although minor differences are felt all around. My FD still can oversteer, but it is more planted on corner exit. I would say no effect at speeds under 40 mph. Speeds 40-70 have a noticeable difference, with the higher speeds really adding downforce.
I did not notice any increase in understeer as a result.
The main difference is in the Nascar oval portion of the track(speeds near 90-120mph), although minor differences are felt all around. My FD still can oversteer, but it is more planted on corner exit. I would say no effect at speeds under 40 mph. Speeds 40-70 have a noticeable difference, with the higher speeds really adding downforce.
I did not notice any increase in understeer as a result.
12-13-07, 10:00 PM
#18
FYI, all three of the RX-7s featured at http://www.7parts.com/cars.html have won a national championship in SCCA autocrossing. All three run (very agressive) wings, and I would bet that all three drivers have tested with and without them.
-s-
-s-
12-13-07, 10:19 PM
#19
this is approximately what is going on my car. it may be a tad shorter and may have adj height. (also different mounting hardware)
wings are differing things to people. the old show or go deal. i am in the "go" category and am looking for just a touch of downforce, ideally adj, w a very low visual profile.
if you like a big wing that's fine w me. we can't all be divorced from the same woman.
wings are differing things to people. the old show or go deal. i am in the "go" category and am looking for just a touch of downforce, ideally adj, w a very low visual profile.
if you like a big wing that's fine w me. we can't all be divorced from the same woman.
I love your wing. I have often wondered why this style never really caught on with the FD crowd. I'm hoping Shine fills my void
12-14-07, 09:55 AM
#20
I currently run wing-less, and I believe that it forces me to "drive the line" consistently, instead or relying on downforce, especially on the high-speed corners.
At my last time-trial, I was faster down the front straight against track-dedicated and winged BMW E36 M3's, because I entered turn 9 faster, and I'm only running AD coil-overs 600/400, Kumho 710's (225 & 265), stock turbos, stock air-intake, stock motor with a PFC controlling 850cc X 4 injectors, DP, resonated midpipe, and cat-back and a conservative Steve Kan tune.
BTW: I top out in 4th gear (140 MPH) at the Start-Finish line, and if I go into 5th, I will reach 150 MPH by the 500-ft. brake marker. The straight is 2,755-ft., I usually come out of turn 9 at 90-100 MPH depending on traffic (course run clockwise).
Check it out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXpRYLzsMxE
BTW: Howard's wing reminds me of what I call the NASCAR duck tail . . .
+1 on the bushings Howard recommends.
:-) neil
At my last time-trial, I was faster down the front straight against track-dedicated and winged BMW E36 M3's, because I entered turn 9 faster, and I'm only running AD coil-overs 600/400, Kumho 710's (225 & 265), stock turbos, stock air-intake, stock motor with a PFC controlling 850cc X 4 injectors, DP, resonated midpipe, and cat-back and a conservative Steve Kan tune.
BTW: I top out in 4th gear (140 MPH) at the Start-Finish line, and if I go into 5th, I will reach 150 MPH by the 500-ft. brake marker. The straight is 2,755-ft., I usually come out of turn 9 at 90-100 MPH depending on traffic (course run clockwise).
Check it out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXpRYLzsMxE
BTW: Howard's wing reminds me of what I call the NASCAR duck tail . . .
+1 on the bushings Howard recommends.
:-) neil
Last edited by M104-AMG; 12-14-07 at 10:10 AM.
12-14-07, 11:25 AM
#21
Rotary Enthusiast
I have both a wingless FD and an FD with a huge wing. I track both cars.
It's hard to compare them because the wingless FD is basically a street car (stock weights) and runs on 245 width R compound tires and the FD with the wing is a stripped down dedicated race car that runs on 305+ width Hoosier or full slicks.
However, the FD with the wing feels much better connected to the track.
On the other hand, with the wingless FD I've only felt the need for a spoiler in high speed sweepers. The worst is Cal Speedway where you enter a banked oval at 150mph+ the other is the "Riverside" sweeper at Buttonwillow where you enter a long banked sweeper at around 100mph. I'm sure a wing would help a lot at both places.
Anyway... you'll be just fine running your car on a road course without a spoiler. A good spoiler might help you but unless you're going to start racing why bother.
It's hard to compare them because the wingless FD is basically a street car (stock weights) and runs on 245 width R compound tires and the FD with the wing is a stripped down dedicated race car that runs on 305+ width Hoosier or full slicks.
However, the FD with the wing feels much better connected to the track.
On the other hand, with the wingless FD I've only felt the need for a spoiler in high speed sweepers. The worst is Cal Speedway where you enter a banked oval at 150mph+ the other is the "Riverside" sweeper at Buttonwillow where you enter a long banked sweeper at around 100mph. I'm sure a wing would help a lot at both places.
Anyway... you'll be just fine running your car on a road course without a spoiler. A good spoiler might help you but unless you're going to start racing why bother.
12-19-07, 09:05 AM
#22
Just to add my 2 cents, I believe the OE 93-95 wing has been shown to produce no downforce (but a little drag), while the R1 lip was shown to produce a little of both.
I've got a 99 nose/lip which theoretically should have even more downforce, and I run it with a wingless rear, up to 155. Perhaps a '99 spec wing, or a FEED wing would offer a bit of help, but I don't think you're going to see much until you go for a true air foil like a GTC or others at the rear.
I've got a 99 nose/lip which theoretically should have even more downforce, and I run it with a wingless rear, up to 155. Perhaps a '99 spec wing, or a FEED wing would offer a bit of help, but I don't think you're going to see much until you go for a true air foil like a GTC or others at the rear.
12-20-07, 08:02 PM
#23
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i just ran my fd with an re amemiya gt II wing for the first time at buttonwillow. although the fd does not need a wing it does help. the car felt more planted around highspeed turns. the wing and rear diffuser are the only things i have changed since last time i was at buttonwillow.
12-21-07, 07:59 AM
#24
You shoulda tried the wing and difuser seperately, so see which had what actual effect!
i just ran my fd with an re amemiya gt II wing for the first time at buttonwillow. although the fd does not need a wing it does help. the car felt more planted around highspeed turns. the wing and rear diffuser are the only things i have changed since last time i was at buttonwillow.
