Race Car Tech Discuss anything related to road racing and auto X.

Calling out wingless FD owners

Old 12-10-07, 02:13 AM
  #1  
Junior Member
10 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Calling out wingless FD owners

I'm going to be doing some track days next season and wanted to get some feedback from wingless FD owners. Does it feel sketchy at speed? I previously have done autocross and it felt a little light in the rear around some higher speed sweepers. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Ariesoner is offline  
Old 12-10-07, 07:31 AM
  #2  
Old Rotary Dog
10 Year Member
 
wrankin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
No, the car feels fine w/o the rear wing at 120+ down the back straight at VIR. Make sure that you have a good alignment on the car, though. Also look at your suspension components and make sure your bushings are all in good shape.

If the rear is feeling "light" at Auto-X speeds (<60mph) your problem is not related to any wing. The stock wing, in any case, does very little it anything in terms of downforce or air smoothing.

-bill
wrankin is offline  
Old 12-10-07, 06:10 PM
  #3  
Junior Member
10 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks. I was using the stock springs and dampers on autocross which probably has a lot to do with it. I'm planing on getting coilovers and some links before next season.
Ariesoner is offline  
Old 12-11-07, 07:55 AM
  #4  
The shy megalomaniac
iTrader: (2)
 
NeoTuri's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 879
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
Feels smooth at 140mph... but as like commented on before it has more to do with alignment than the wing.
NeoTuri is offline  
Old 12-11-07, 10:42 AM
  #5  
Mr. Links
15 Year Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Mahjik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 27,592
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
You won't have a problem at any of the Midwest tracks.
Mahjik is offline  
Old 12-11-07, 12:24 PM
  #6  
Junior Member
10 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What toe settings would you recommend? I set them up pretty aggressive for autocross to get as much slow speed rotation i could.
Ariesoner is offline  
Old 12-11-07, 12:37 PM
  #7  
Mr. Links
15 Year Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Mahjik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 27,592
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Arrow

Check the Pettit Racing Long Track specs:

http://pettitracing.com/rx7/index_information.htm
Mahjik is offline  
Old 12-11-07, 12:46 PM
  #8  
Rotary Freak
iTrader: (3)
 
Jay7 Nyc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC - SFL
Posts: 1,696
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I've been 165mph with my wingless FD. She felt nice and tight and when I broke it down to 120ish to go into a bend she didn't feel loose at all...
Jay7 Nyc is offline  
Old 12-11-07, 01:17 PM
  #9  
Full Member
10 Year Member
 
WVRx7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Charleston, WV, USA
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You don't need any aerodynamic device on your 3rd gen until you have a seriously built, specialized, track car.

Friends (who are far more knowledgable than I) have thousands of track miles and over a decade of experience track tuning the FD. At serious speeds, in a fully prepped car, it has been found that an airfoil mounted high in wind (like a GTC wing, but higher) does help rear downforce at speeds over 100mph.

The caveat is that commensurate front aero needs to be utilized in order to attempt to keep the car balanced. Whether it is a splitter, canards or a combination of both, one needs to further plant the front of the car to work well with a large rear air foil.

Basically, there is no benefit whatsoever unless you are driving at the upper reaches of capability of the chassis. It's particularly absurd to expect airflow to have an impact on handling on an autox course in a street car. It's just not logical or possible given the known laws of physics.

The factory wing at autox speeds would be lucky to compress the rubber gasket that seals the hatch much less provide any meaningful downforce to the chassis.
WVRx7 is offline  
Old 12-12-07, 08:58 PM
  #10  
Junior Member
10 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Basically, there is no benefit whatsoever unless you are driving at the upper reaches of capability of the chassis. It's particularly absurd to expect airflow to have an impact on handling on an autox course in a street car. It's just not logical or possible given the known laws of physics.

The factory wing at autox speeds would be lucky to compress the rubber gasket that seals the hatch much less provide any meaningful downforce to the chassis.

Wow! Thanks, but don't be such an elitist. You made many assumptions that seemed to generate a much more complicated question than I was presenting. My question was about the feel at higher speeds on the track. I don't care about the factory wing because I know it's mostly useless. The only reason I spoke of autocross was to point out the lightness I felt at slower speeds(55-65). I know aero doesn't play a meaningful role during autocross. I wanted to see if my "lightness" would become worse once aero does come into play. Obviously some issues are my 15 year old suspension and aggressive auto cross alignment.

This is why I don't post much on this forum. Every thread has that one sometimes two guys puffing up their chests saying, "Hey stupid listen to me, because I've got stuff to say."
Ariesoner is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 07:17 AM
  #11  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,354
Received 48 Likes on 30 Posts
on balance there was correct advice offered in this thread.

i have run a number of times at Brainerd Int'l Raceway (Minn). it offers a 6000 foot main straight that you enter around 80 mph. at the end of the straight is a wide radiused banked 90 degree turn that you don't have to lift for in my FD.

generally i was not looking at the speedo in that turn but i am sure i was running over 165. i did pedal it just a touch prior to entry (no brakes) because i was running on Toyo street tires w no cage etc.

i run the R1 splitter and no rear wing w a 25 inch ride height. at the time i was running 18 X 8.5 fr and 18 X 10 rear.

the composure of the car was such i could have been reading a newspaper in turn 1. absolutely solid. i run 8/6 spring rate.

as wranklin correctly states... alignment is key as well as bushings.

i recommend the following settings:

30 psi cold front
27 cold rear

bleed down after each session and monitor pressure w a pyrometer.

1.2 neg camber front and rear.

monitor and adjust at the track if you want to go fast.

toe in less than an 1/8th front. zero rear.

25 inch ride height.

as we all know aero is very very important as speed builds. one year at the Runoffs at Road Atlanta (pre-chicane) going into the last qualifying session i was gridded third. we decided to take the factory spoiler off and see if we could improve. the spoiler is tiny on the RX3 and sits in a spot where it shouldn't catch much air. i was blown away by how it screwed up my car. i couldn't flatfoot the top of the hill before the big dip at the end of the long back straight. on the other side of the course w the esses which is 3rd gear mostly the car was slow. all due to the removal of a spoiler that weighed less than a pound and was pop riveted on my rear deck. even in 3rd gear.

my real point is that we all need to be very very careful w aero. keep in mind that as the wing adds weight to the rear of the car it removes front weight. some of the rear spoilers i see....

my car is about ready to get back on the track in 08. i do plan to add an approx 2 inch blade spoiler to the rear.

bushings are important too. you probably already know this from autocross. the bushing that really really needs to be replaced is the big rubber bushing at the front of the lower longitudinal arm at the rear of the car. under braking and acceleration you lose toe settings. the other set that needs replacement is the diff bushings. the rest of the bushings are fine left stock other than the pillow ***** which are a maintainence item.

good luck,

howard coleman
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 07:45 AM
  #12  
Full Member
10 Year Member
 
WVRx7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Charleston, WV, USA
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ariesoner View Post
Wow! Thanks, but don't be such an elitist. You made many assumptions that seemed to generate a much more complicated question than I was presenting. My question was about the feel at higher speeds on the track. I don't care about the factory wing because I know it's mostly useless. The only reason I spoke of autocross was to point out the lightness I felt at slower speeds(55-65). I know aero doesn't play a meaningful role during autocross. I wanted to see if my "lightness" would become worse once aero does come into play. Obviously some issues are my 15 year old suspension and aggressive auto cross alignment.

This is why I don't post much on this forum. Every thread has that one sometimes two guys puffing up their chests saying, "Hey stupid listen to me, because I've got stuff to say."
You'll note that I don't post much on this forum either (and for largely the same reasons you stated).

Nothing in my response was chest pounding or elitest. In fact, I state that I am not an expert, but I do spend lots of time at racetracks with people who are considered knowledgable on the subject.

I am sorry if you think my response was harsh. It wasn't intended as such.

Aero is a post-graduate level subject commonly discussed on the internet by people without enough knowledge to fill a thimble. I was simply relating what I know to be fact. There's no reason for you to chase handling issues with your car by looking at aero FIRST. My response basically said that once you have addressed each and every component of the car, and maxxed out your driving skill THEN and only then will aero components give you any real benefit.
WVRx7 is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 03:08 PM
  #13  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: TX
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
does anyone make a wing that doesnt look like it belongs in the fast and furious?
like a small spoiler that just goes on the lip of the hatch?
SidewaysAutoSalon is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 03:18 PM
  #14  
Full Member
5 Year Member
 
KBSRX7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Blackwood,NJ
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The bigger the better! I love the huge carbon fiber gt wings tey are just too much money. And sorry all you fast and furious lovers but this style has been around BEFORE that stupid movie. When I had my supra everyone was like " what kind of car is that?" Then after that stupid movie it was like" Oh thats the fast and the furious car! AAAHHHHH .
Anyway, back to the subject...I thought I noticed a difference at high speed. I'm not a track racer but, I think it feels tighter in the rear with the wing. I'm talking about 120-175mph.
KBSRX7 is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 03:25 PM
  #15  
Mr. Links
15 Year Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Mahjik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 27,592
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by SidewaysAutoSalon View Post
does anyone make a wing that doesnt look like it belongs in the fast and furious?
like a small spoiler that just goes on the lip of the hatch?
ShineAuto are looking to create one. There have been some in the past, but they aren't made anymore. However, those will not generate as much downforce as a GT style wing and they will not be adjustable like a GT style wing. If you find that you need a wing for the track, you should get something that is adjustable so you can dial in the amount of downforce needed for a given track.
Mahjik is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 03:54 PM
  #16  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,354
Received 48 Likes on 30 Posts
this is approximately what is going on my car. it may be a tad shorter and may have adj height. (also different mounting hardware)

wings are differing things to people. the old show or go deal. i am in the "go" category and am looking for just a touch of downforce, ideally adj, w a very low visual profile.

if you like a big wing that's fine w me. we can't all be divorced from the same woman.





Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 04:28 PM
  #17  
Mr. Links
15 Year Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Mahjik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 27,592
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Now I'm not advocating that you *need* a wing for road racing, but here's a thread which talks a little about it:

https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech-103/whos-running-big-wing-fds-time-attack-600325/

The main post to note:

Originally Posted by darkslide750 View Post
I figure I'd get back and post some feedback on the Wing. I installed the APR GTC 200 wing and it definately made a difference. I dropped 2 seconds off my lap times. 1:11's to 1:09's at Phoenix international. I made no other changes.
The main difference is in the Nascar oval portion of the track(speeds near 90-120mph), although minor differences are felt all around. My FD still can oversteer, but it is more planted on corner exit. I would say no effect at speeds under 40 mph. Speeds 40-70 have a noticeable difference, with the higher speeds really adding downforce.
I did not notice any increase in understeer as a result.
For the original poster, it's not required. The FD handles just fine without one. However, they can enhance your driving.
Mahjik is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 10:00 PM
  #18  
~17 MPG
iTrader: (1)
 
scotty305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 2,741
Received 18 Likes on 14 Posts
FYI, all three of the RX-7s featured at http://www.7parts.com/cars.html have won a national championship in SCCA autocrossing. All three run (very agressive) wings, and I would bet that all three drivers have tested with and without them.

-s-
scotty305 is offline  
Old 12-13-07, 10:19 PM
  #19  
Sua Sponte
15 Year Member
iTrader: (31)
 
Brent Dalton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Savannah
Posts: 3,122
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by howard coleman View Post
this is approximately what is going on my car. it may be a tad shorter and may have adj height. (also different mounting hardware)

wings are differing things to people. the old show or go deal. i am in the "go" category and am looking for just a touch of downforce, ideally adj, w a very low visual profile.

if you like a big wing that's fine w me. we can't all be divorced from the same woman.





Howard,
I love your wing. I have often wondered why this style never really caught on with the FD crowd. I'm hoping Shine fills my void
Brent Dalton is offline  
Old 12-14-07, 09:55 AM
  #20  
Rotary Freak
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 2,845
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
I currently run wing-less, and I believe that it forces me to "drive the line" consistently, instead or relying on downforce, especially on the high-speed corners.

At my last time-trial, I was faster down the front straight against track-dedicated and winged BMW E36 M3's, because I entered turn 9 faster, and I'm only running AD coil-overs 600/400, Kumho 710's (225 & 265), stock turbos, stock air-intake, stock motor with a PFC controlling 850cc X 4 injectors, DP, resonated midpipe, and cat-back and a conservative Steve Kan tune.

BTW: I top out in 4th gear (140 MPH) at the Start-Finish line, and if I go into 5th, I will reach 150 MPH by the 500-ft. brake marker. The straight is 2,755-ft., I usually come out of turn 9 at 90-100 MPH depending on traffic (course run clockwise).

Check it out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXpRYLzsMxE

BTW: Howard's wing reminds me of what I call the NASCAR duck tail . . .

+1 on the bushings Howard recommends.

:-) neil
Attached Thumbnails Calling out wingless FD owners-rrtrack.jpg  

Last edited by M104-AMG; 12-14-07 at 10:10 AM.
M104-AMG is offline  
Old 12-14-07, 11:25 AM
  #21  
Rotary Enthusiast
10 Year Member
 
John Magnuson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have both a wingless FD and an FD with a huge wing. I track both cars.

It's hard to compare them because the wingless FD is basically a street car (stock weights) and runs on 245 width R compound tires and the FD with the wing is a stripped down dedicated race car that runs on 305+ width Hoosier or full slicks.

However, the FD with the wing feels much better connected to the track.

On the other hand, with the wingless FD I've only felt the need for a spoiler in high speed sweepers. The worst is Cal Speedway where you enter a banked oval at 150mph+ the other is the "Riverside" sweeper at Buttonwillow where you enter a long banked sweeper at around 100mph. I'm sure a wing would help a lot at both places.

Anyway... you'll be just fine running your car on a road course without a spoiler. A good spoiler might help you but unless you're going to start racing why bother.
John Magnuson is offline  
Old 12-19-07, 09:05 AM
  #22  
Lives on the Forum
iTrader: (8)
 
ptrhahn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 8,492
Received 20 Likes on 19 Posts
Just to add my 2 cents, I believe the OE 93-95 wing has been shown to produce no downforce (but a little drag), while the R1 lip was shown to produce a little of both.

I've got a 99 nose/lip which theoretically should have even more downforce, and I run it with a wingless rear, up to 155. Perhaps a '99 spec wing, or a FEED wing would offer a bit of help, but I don't think you're going to see much until you go for a true air foil like a GTC or others at the rear.
ptrhahn is offline  
Old 12-20-07, 08:02 PM
  #23  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Seoul, Korea
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
i just ran my fd with an re amemiya gt II wing for the first time at buttonwillow. although the fd does not need a wing it does help. the car felt more planted around highspeed turns. the wing and rear diffuser are the only things i have changed since last time i was at buttonwillow.
azn akira is offline  
Old 12-21-07, 07:59 AM
  #24  
Lives on the Forum
iTrader: (8)
 
ptrhahn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 8,492
Received 20 Likes on 19 Posts
You shoulda tried the wing and difuser seperately, so see which had what actual effect!



Originally Posted by azn akira View Post
i just ran my fd with an re amemiya gt II wing for the first time at buttonwillow. although the fd does not need a wing it does help. the car felt more planted around highspeed turns. the wing and rear diffuser are the only things i have changed since last time i was at buttonwillow.
ptrhahn is offline  
Old 12-21-07, 12:32 PM
  #25  
Racing Spirit
5 Year Member
iTrader: (2)
 
kwerks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NNJ
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wingless....been upto 150+
I plan to get a huge gt2 wing later on to get high speed stability.

kwerks is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Calling out wingless FD owners


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: