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Who's running a big wing? FD's Time Attack

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Who's running a big wing? FD's Time Attack

Old 11-27-06, 08:59 AM
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Who's running a big wing? FD's Time Attack

Well, over the weekend I got to run my car in the Club Racing AZ Time Attack out at PIR in Phoenix. This is really fun track and it uses Nascar turns 3 & 4 + the infield. My car setup is the following:

Single Turbo GT35/T4
Racing Beat front sway
D2 Racing Coilovers 13-9
275/40/17 Toyo Ra-1 all around (shaved)
V-mount
Dual oil coolers
etc.

The car ran great once again. My new coilovers are really working better than the Tein RA's I had on their before. I had a Racing Beat wing on the back before but I sold it and ran with nothing on the back. The car felt really neutral and turn-in was really good. I was having problems with oversteer before, but now that has been minimized greatly with the softer springs in the rear. I got second in the unlimited class(out of 3) and rant he 4th fastest time of the day 1:11x(out of like 15 cars). The bad: I still had some oversteer and I was getting the rear loose in the Nascar oval portion at like 110-115mph.

So here's the question: alot of the 240 guys are running large wings and I'm thinking about going big. What are some of the FD guys experiences with large aftermarket wings?
Something like this:
http://www.aprperformance.com/index....d=32&Itemid=45
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Old 11-27-06, 09:35 AM
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I believe Damian and Hedgehog here on the forum are both running GT wings (I think Damian's is the RE GT wing and Hedge's is the Mazdaspeed GT wing).

Most others like the '99 Spec adjustable wing.
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Old 11-27-06, 02:02 PM
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You may also want to get in touch with diyman25.

I know a lot of guys like to use the GTC wings you posted the link to for APR, as you can see by the pics.
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Old 11-27-06, 07:05 PM
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I hope some of these big wing guys chime in. I want to know about gains for a big wing vs a smaller type wing. I should clarify I am looking only at wings with aerodynamics specific to providing more downforce.
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Old 11-27-06, 07:29 PM
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I would suggest that whatever wing you decide on, make sure its adjustable. I will most likely go with the Mazdaspeed GT-C wing.
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Old 11-27-06, 08:24 PM
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Old 11-27-06, 08:30 PM
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A little off topic, how do you like the D2 coilovers? I haven't heard much about them but there price is nice and the fact you can pick spring rates is awesome. Also. what rims are you running? Any rubbing issues? Fenders rolled?

Thanks for the info.
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Old 11-27-06, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by darkslide750
Yep. Corksport has it a little cheaper:

http://corksport.com/store/category/...-exterior.html
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Old 11-27-06, 09:45 PM
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About the D2's, the came prebuilt and looked to be very high quality. They came with 13k front and 9k rear and it felt like it. I started full soft and went up like 6 in the front and then went to 12 in the front. I was oversteering alot before(with the tein ra's) but the rear sets very nice now. Turn in, like always, was very good. Powering out of corners the rear felt pretty planted. I have a T4/Gt40 so I get a pretty good turbo kick, but it was holding even in off-camber corners. Honestly, I was dealing with major brake problems and didn't get the full test. By the time my tires were hot, my brakes were toast. I ran out of my EBC yellows and tried some Hawk HPS and it was very bad. I have a set of low mileage hawk hps's available for cheap! I ordered a full set of Hawk blues and slotted rotors.
The D2's are pretty tight(not bouncy) for the street with those spring rates but felt good with the big rubber on the track.

Last edited by darkslide750; 11-27-06 at 09:47 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-28-06, 04:26 AM
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Here are both of my Track cars. As you can see . I have Re Amemiya GT2 Spoiler on both cars. For the PIR. with GT Spoiler it for sure help. And I did a back to back test on the GT spoiler and none GT spoiler run in the same car same driver. With GT spoiler you can Feel the car is a bit slower on straight way but at Corner Exit and hight speed section it is faster then then Spoiler less and lap time wise is about average 1.5-3sec improve compare to wingless.

But one down side of add big GT Spoiler some time it will create Understeer. due the to the too much down force at back cause the front wheel to lift, thuse cause udnersteer. so Add a Front diffuser or lip will great reduce this problm, Done that in my FC with Stock bumper. Mazda Speed Lip. And RE Amemiya's FC2000 front bumper. Lip help a little, but not until I add the complete bumper( with much longer and wide lip at button) to solve this problem

Attached Thumbnails Who's running a big wing? FD's Time Attack-fd-2.jpg   Who's running a big wing? FD's Time Attack-2005sstapp.jpg  
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Old 11-28-06, 08:32 AM
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Thats what I wanted to hear. Is the understeer issue mostly at higher speed corners or in the 30-60 mph range also?
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Old 11-28-06, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by darkslide750
Thats what I wanted to hear. Is the understeer issue mostly at higher speed corners or in the 30-60 mph range also?
In general, more downforce in the rear creates understeer (as well as drag). Now, some of that can be countered with other suspension changes (mostly on race cars as they have more sophisticated suspension setups) and as mentioned more downforce in the front (once again, more drag).

The trick is finding the balance of getting the amount of downforce you need without sacrificing your speed and/or grip levels. That will just have to be something you experiment with to find what works for you.
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Old 11-29-06, 04:33 AM
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Generally aerodynamic forces on car wings only come into play at speeds over 60mph.
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Old 11-29-06, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cruiser
Generally aerodynamic forces on car wings only come into play at speeds over 60mph.
That is a higher speed than I heard before. I was told by the two time winner of the spec miata class that effects can be seen as early as 35 mph. This may or may not be the case but:
Question
At what speed do aerodynamics take a noticeable effect? ie. wing etc.
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Old 11-29-06, 10:32 AM
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You can get significant downforce below 60mph, you just have to build an appropriate wing. Unfortunately, a wing that makes good downforce at low speed will probably have tremendous drag when you go faster. Erik Strelnieks and I run very large wings for autoxing, but we don't typically see more than 70mph. I certainly wouldn't be running as large of a wing with such a severe angle of attack for a track car that sees 100mph+.

Mine....
http://www.digitalracephotography.co...hur_4E_479.htm

Note: This is a modifed APR wing.

Erik's....
http://www.digitalracephotography.co...hur_4E_373.htm

Erik's is a custom built "real" wing with high cambered large front element.

As others have said, I think you'll get a benefit for sure from running a wing. However you may have to play around with angle of attack to get the traction you want without sacrificing speed. The APR performance wings are a good place to start as you can get some performance improvement without blowing your budget. Balancing a rear wing with a front splitter will help as well.

-Andy M.
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Old 11-29-06, 06:42 PM
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Thanks amrx7. That wing of yours shows me an exceptional example of what a slow speed wing can look like. I don't do autocross, so I think I'll need to run a more high speed wing. Willow Springs, Spring Mountain, and the local AZ tracks all are pretty high speed.
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Old 12-01-06, 04:55 PM
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AMRX7, that is some badass wing

I was talking about car wings that you mostly see. What AMRX7 posted was an extreme example and yes, that could give you some downforce even at speeds lower then 60mph.

But anyway you do need some ample airflow if you want the wing to function. So different airfoils have different characteristics at different speeds (the so called Lift / Drag coefficient).

But on the other hand, back to basics - you first need to get rid of the oversteer in mechanical way. Wider tyres, softer springs/shocks or swaybar at rear. Relying on aerodynamic downforce can be tricky, as amount of grip is then regulated by the speed. Definately try to setup something at the front to compensate for a wing in the rear. Canards ?
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Old 12-01-06, 05:24 PM
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115mph inside of NASCAR 3-4 at PIR on just rcomps is crazy fast for that track....the full slick guys usually see about that speed but their overall lap times are faster. What speed do you enter turn one and are you braking? That is where the real time is shaved at that track.

In my e36 M3 (230ish whp), at that same track, on rcomps I would turn consistent 1:12s, inside of NASCAR 3-4 I was at 90ish mph (slowest point) and about 125 or so on turn 1 corner entry (slight throttle lift, no brake).

I am also interested in what type of Aero you would need to get faster through those very slightly banked NASCAR ovals. Almost all of the tracks out here would benefit from aero improvements (hell any racecar benefits from it.)

darkslide:
What event was that at? I was a track day junkie for a long time, Jason Boles (head of AZRA) and I go a ways back, I have been dormant since I transitioned to the FD from my M3 and have been waiting till I get to take the 7 out onto the track, hopefully it was worth the wait. In all my time out there I never saw another FD....Hope I see you out there when I am finally back in the game!!
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Old 12-01-06, 05:29 PM
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diyman25: You should get some endplates on that FD wing of yours.

For anyone whose interested, here's some light aero reading:
http://www.advantage-cfd.co.uk/News/...-Releases.html
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Old 12-01-06, 06:30 PM
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cozmo, I'm leaving turn 9 in 2nd shift 3rd-4th and lift a little before the oval. I then accellerate to about 115 before the hotpit exit. I hittin like 140 or so at the end of the straight and braking to 110 for turn one. I've been running all the PIR events with CRA lately and that last event was thanksgiving.
I'm really pumped about another FD on the track. Yeah. Plus, if your running 112's in a m3, I stand to learn a little. I was having all sorts of braking probs but I think my new setup will fix it. I'm really hoping to get into the 1:09's soon.
BTW, the next event is Jan 6-7 at PIR.
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Old 12-04-06, 11:18 AM
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The trick is to run from turn 2 to the carosel fast. I do almost all of my passing on that track at the entrance to the carosel and at turn 9 braking zone. My M3 was one of the best braking cars out there and was set up perfectly for the infield of that track. I would frequently get frustrated at all the higher horsepower cars getting away from me on the straights.

Now that I think about it, I must have been going faster through NASCAR 3-4 because I was never lifting off of the trottle I would come out of 9 shift up to 4th (a short shift that woudl drop the car to 4000rpm or so, the be full throttle all the way through NASCAR 4 and down the straight. I would lift just slightly before turn 1, and then go back full throttle for a second or so and thresshold brake turn 2...driving a really deep line on that corner (WAAAY more room there than you think there is.) Watching the ALMS cars drive that corner really showed me the light. That is probably where I make up a big chunk of time...

The FD must be a totally different animal on that track..
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Old 12-04-06, 12:08 PM
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I'm still have a bunch to learn, but turn 1 and 2 are killing my times. I tried to follow faster cars but I get loose on the bump down into 1 and turn 2 is oversteer city(3rd gear). For me, turn 2 never feels right. You mean "really deep" and outside, like into the tire boogers?

Are you going to start running events with the FD soon? PIR on Jan 6-7th, with CRA. I'll be there with a big wing.
BTW, I was gonna pull the passenger seat but if you come out, I'll leave it in and give you a ride-a-long.
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Old 12-04-06, 12:28 PM
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ooh, I should be able to take my FD to that even too!
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Old 12-04-06, 01:02 PM
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3 FDs! Wow...it would be nice to get my car out there by then but the way things have been going I really doubt that would be possible. I definately wouldn't expect big things out of the car either because it would be my first time driving the thing in over a year, and it will be 400ish whp and a totally new suspension setup. All those things combined = uncomfortable pushing the car and its unknown limits.

I drive turn 2 a lot deeper than most...not necessarily to the debris...but close. I then take a very late apex to set up for turn 3 which puts me full throttle all the way to the carosel entrance. That is the trick to getting around the infield fast...I think...I had a lot of experience on that track, but I am by no means an expert. I just like to have fun. I instructed for NASA a few times at PIR and AMP when then needed people and that was fun. I will see if I can make Jan 6-7 and get back to you.

If my good friend's racecar is up and running I will be out there for sure. If the FD is running I will bring it, and maybe take a few laps but I dont know if it will be up to full sessions fresh out of the ressurection...

Good to know there is an FD pulse alive in the valley though. That has me excited.
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Old 12-04-06, 01:06 PM
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what suspension are you going to be running kraemer?

I'm putting some new stuff on my car too, hopefully by the end of next week.
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