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Auto X Brakes?

Old 02-07-03, 08:17 PM
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Auto X Brakes?

What kind of brakes do you use for autocross? What would you recommend? Or are stock enough? and what about SS brake lines?
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Old 02-07-03, 11:34 PM
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Re: Auto X Brakes?

Originally posted by ShortBusRiot
What kind of brakes do you use for autocross? What would you recommend? Or are stock enough? and what about SS brake lines?
SS brake line are Stainless Steel Brake lines. what happens normally is your brake line is made out of rubber, under high temperatures the rubber brake line expands and gives you a spunge pedal, where when you get on the pedal it squizes but the braking is just not there. by rapping the rubber line with stainless steel tube, it eliminates the spunge feel and you have firm brakes even at high temperatures


I found for autocross, (now this is on a rx7) the stock pads would fade (similar spungy feeling where the brake pad pretty much melts and u again have no brakes), what you should get is pads that are street/track use, this way you can use them for everyday driving, and use them for autocross. don't take them to the real track though ,because you'll burn though them just like stock pads at AutoX

if you need more explanation on anything else, feel free to ask
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Old 02-08-03, 11:56 AM
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Whats the benefits of those fansy smancy willwood, bremo, and baer brake kits? Would those Green stuff or Red stuff pads do?
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Old 02-08-03, 11:58 AM
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Another question what about brake ducts and what about those little winglets that go on the front sides of the car. I hear they make something like a low pressure area outside the wheel cooling them.
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Old 02-08-03, 08:13 PM
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A couple things, number one a Stainless Steel line has a teflon inner tube, not rubber, the teflon tube does not bend, it is hard like plastic so there is no bluge. The SS braid is to protect the teflon but it is best to wrap it so dirt does not worm under the SS braid and rub a hole in the line. I just put SS lines and Hawk HP pads on my first gen and holy cow. The difference is incredible. The brakes are like a switch now, I will be afraid of stopping too much.

Ben
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Old 02-08-03, 08:21 PM
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those fancy brake kits will bump you up a class or two.... Stay away from the EBC pads too... I've been hearing cases of EBC pads transferring material to the rotors, causing a shuddering under braking... I ran Performance Friction on my Honda last season, and they kicked ***... Dunno what I'm gonna run on the street/autocross for the mazda this year... I've got Hawk Blues for the track though...

Dan
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Old 02-08-03, 08:41 PM
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Will stock brake rotors warp or do other nasty stuff if under heavy auto x usage?
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Old 02-09-03, 08:47 AM
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I've ran EBC Greenstuff on a C4 Corvette and loved them. Some love them, some hate them. They did provide the absolute best cold stopping power I've ever experienced. Ton better than the Performance Friction pads I had before. I would of used them again on my 323 GTX but they're not available. Only problem with the EBCs is that dust alot. Inspite of what their literature says. Other than that Hawk are always a favorite. HP or HP+. Drop Chris Wire a line for Hawk pads.

All pads will transfer material to the rotor. That's part of the bedding process. According to one of the Tire Rack guys most "warped" rotors really aren't warped. The vibration is caused by a thickness variation or TV. The TV is usually a buildup of pad material sometimes the result of improper bedding or even the occasional rust buildup from when a car sits for a period of time.

Braided lines are a good upgrade for any car but will class you out of stock class if that's what you want to run. If you want to stay in stock get some new rubber lines. Good fluid (I like ATE Super Blue) and a good bleed job. Bleed them often too.

As far as cooling for autox...it's not neccesary. You can cook a stock pad on an autox course but most hi-perf pads need heat to work properly. A 1 minute autox course shouldn't be enough to cook the pads or good fresh fluid on an RX7.

Chris
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Old 02-09-03, 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by ShortBusRiot
Will stock brake rotors warp or do other nasty stuff if under heavy auto x usage?
here's what would be recomended for AutoX

1) SS Brake lines
2) ATE Super Blue Racing brake fluid, which you can find on many websites, it's a quality Dot 4 fluid, you don't want to go synthetic because you have ABS, ABS boils synthetic
3) stock pads are OK, if you want something that's little better, gets pads that are street/track, those will work very well in the subzero degree weather and at AutoX temperatures (that's what I use now)


the reason you get big brake kits is not to stop faster (although that is a little side effect), what you really are getting the big brake kit for is for heat decipitation, you see the faster you go down the track the more braking power you need, hence everything being the same the temperature generated has to go somewhere, and if your heat sink is small then it will start overheating important components such as fluid, pads... if you get a big brake kit, the heat can dicipate better and you don't have a problem of fade, but then again, this would only really be required if you race
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Old 02-10-03, 01:15 PM
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Here are my thoughts. Few people/cars need a big brake kit. Like iwannarx7 said, it's all about heat dissipation, and at an autocross you aren't going to be putting a whole lot of heat into the brakes. A different set of pads are a great idea though. You want the pads to work "right now", not "after they are a little warmer". Definitely change the fluid too. At least once a year if you are autocrossing regularly. Old/new fluid will change the pedal feel a lot.
Good luck
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Old 02-10-03, 03:51 PM
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I just got my Hawk HPS pads (front only) put on today and so far I'm impressed. I'll let you know how they work out after this weekend. Like TheTwinTurboRX7 said, they're on/off switches, and these aren't even the HP+ pads.
I doubt you'll need a big brake upgrade as the courses are designed to keep you under 70 mph (supposedly); plus, they'll weigh more, and bump you into a class you may get eaten alive in. iwannarx7 makes a good point with heat dissipation, but the brakes get a chance to cool between runs so they really aren't absolutely necessary. pads, ss lines, and better fluid should keep you happy.
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Old 02-10-03, 05:56 PM
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Thanks for all of the great info guys! Now where to budget that 3k im going to save from not buying a big brake system? hmmm
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Old 02-11-03, 09:30 PM
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1)Tires
2)Shocks

Chris
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Old 02-11-03, 10:06 PM
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You could spend a lot of it on suspension. http://www.gforceengineering.net/ or http://www.ground-control.com/ both have very good suspension setups.
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Old 02-11-03, 10:56 PM
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Seat time.

Dan
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Old 02-11-03, 10:57 PM
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shocks
Tires
Brake pads
seat time

Forget the suspension stuff, work on you as a driver

PaulC
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Old 02-12-03, 12:46 AM
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I run HP+ on my R1. I auto-x it ~15 times a year since '99. You don't need big brakes, they are probably a disadvantage for auto-x.

The HPS and HP+ pads work immediately when cold, both would be a good choice for auto-x. Actually stock pads are a good choice too.

Changing brake lines and fluid will not make a difference for auto-x. Not enough heat to boil even old fluid. Not enough flex in the lines (on a FD) to really change anything. I do run ATE super blue but not because it shortens the braking distance or increases pedal feel.

R-compound tires will be the SINGLE BIGGEST IMPROVEMENT in times BAR NONE. Anyone that has run R-compound tires will vouch for this statement. I always hear guys saying they have some awesome street tire and it is really good. Get R-compound tires and you'll knock at least 1 sec off your times.

Jeff
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Old 02-12-03, 07:37 AM
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A couple points here:

Jeff said "Changing brake lines and fluid will not make a difference for auto-x. Not enough heat to boil even old fluid."
I disagree. Although there isn't nearly enough heat to boil good new fluid, it's ceratinly a bad idea to go out with the intention of performance driving with old or unknown brake fluid. Ask me how I know.

Chris said "Braided lines are a good upgrade for any car but will class you out of stock class if that's what you want to run."
Remember that there's a year associated with that rule (I don't have a book handy to look it up but it's online somewhere) and for earlier cars (my 86 included) brake braded brake lines are ok. That's in SCCA SoloII, mind you.

My opinion: There's no need for most of us to upgrade the brake system but it's important to be sure your system is working properly. Good pads are a good investment.

Cory Waters
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Old 02-12-03, 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by Cwaters
Chris said "Braided lines are a good upgrade for any car but will class you out of stock class if that's what you want to run."
Remember that there's a year associated with that rule (I don't have a book handy to look it up but it's online somewhere) and for earlier cars (my 86 included) brake braded brake lines are ok. That's in SCCA SoloII, mind you.
If you could find that rule in the Solo Handbook, I'd like to see it. Otherwise, it's commonly known that, in stock class, there are only 4 allowable modifications: (1) shocks/struts, (2) tires (DOT-legal only), (3) front swaybar, and (4) wheels of the same OEM diameter and within 0.25" of OEM offset. SS brake lines or any non-manufacturer-offered brake line are a SP or higher mod.

Brake fluid should be changed out at least once a year. I also use the ATE Super Blue ... but only because I do some time trialing as well. But, for auto-x purposes, I can almost guarantee you won't run into any brake fade situations. If you are having brake fade at an auto-x, you most likely have a problem with your brake system. I've run with cheap-*** Valvoline brake fluid and it works fine for auto-x.

turbojeff is absolutely correct about the R-compound tires. As far as mods go, there is no single better time-shaver than R-compound tires. Once you run on them, you'll never want to go back to street tires. (Unless your wallet forces you to ... ) But seat time is the most important thing to running faster.

But to answer the original question, the Hawk HP+ pads are the best auto-x pad you can buy, IMO. Extremely strong cold bite, continuously strong when heated, great pedal feel. Combined with the FD's good brakes, most people who ride with me are amazed at how late I can brake. The only downside to the HP+'s is that they dust like crazy. I'm too lazy to pull them off every weekend, so I end up leaving them on .... the wheels are coated by Wednesday or Thursday. But, all-in-all, the HP+ pads are worth it. When it starts coming down to tenths of seconds, the pads will make a difference.

Last edited by redrotorR1; 02-12-03 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 02-12-03, 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by turbojeff
I run HP+ on my R1. I auto-x it ~15 times a year since '99. You don't need big brakes, they are probably a disadvantage for auto-x.

The HPS and HP+ pads work immediately when cold, both would be a good choice for auto-x. Actually stock pads are a good choice too.

Changing brake lines and fluid will not make a difference for auto-x. Not enough heat to boil even old fluid. Not enough flex in the lines (on a FD) to really change anything. I do run ATE super blue but not because it shortens the braking distance or increases pedal feel.

R-compound tires will be the SINGLE BIGGEST IMPROVEMENT in times BAR NONE. Anyone that has run R-compound tires will vouch for this statement. I always hear guys saying they have some awesome street tire and it is really good. Get R-compound tires and you'll knock at least 1 sec off your times.

Jeff
your advice is good, but I think there is a better way for an amateur to start racing, even though the brake lines and fluid might hold up in the beginning, eventually it will wear out, the isolated temperatures will be high enough to boil hte old fluid. (isn't ATE super blue awesome though )

in terms of tires, DON'T EVER GET R-RATED TIRES AS AN AMATEUR, that's the biggest waste of money, they will just cover up the mistakes and be a waste of money. the best tires are the cheapest things ever, this way he'll learn how to drive FIRST, and then when he's really good on crapy tires, going to a good tire will give a huge improvement, otherise it's worthless

so at the end the best thing you can do in the beginning is do the pads, lines, brake fluid, and and seat time, spend the money on the school, because no matter how much better you make the car there will always be someone faster then you, your knowledge is the weakest link in the equation, FD is good enough out of the box that you realistically don't need to do anything (other then brakes)
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Old 02-12-03, 12:01 PM
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I found the rule for brake lines here:
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/stock.html#s136
It says:
13.6 Brakes
The make and material of brake linings may be changed.
Substitution of clutch and brake hydraulic lines with solid metal or braided metal is allowed on all cars manufactured before model year 1992.
Alternate brake bleeder fittings such as "Speedbleeders" are permitted They may serve no other purpose.
Now, I've never had a rule book and I don't know when this was last updated but it's the rules I used when I upgraded my likes last year...

Cory
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Old 02-12-03, 01:36 PM
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Anyone use KVR pads? They're supposed to be a carbon weave material lined in Kevlar.

Im looking for a pad with not so much of an emphasis on cold bite but something with progressively stronger bite as temps increase.
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Old 02-12-03, 01:37 PM
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redrotorr1, i was under the impression that you can also modify the pads, put on a cat-back, intake, but ONLY springs, no shocks.
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Old 02-12-03, 01:53 PM
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Intake ... no.
Springs ... you got it backwards. Shocks, yes. Springs, no.
You're right about the cat-back. I forgot about that. My bad.

And pads are unrestricted. I don't know what you mean by modify, but if you just mean replace with other types of brake material, then yes.

Also, I forgot to mention the Sumitomo brake pads. They're good in bite factor, and relatively low dusting factor. Not quite as good as the Hawk HP+, but a good compromise for those who don't like the dusting issue.
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Old 02-12-03, 02:01 PM
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that's what i meant by modify, replacing them with parts that aren't oem and will increase performance. i need to pick up a rule book, it seems every time this subject comes up something changes.
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