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-AN alternative

Old 07-06-10, 05:52 PM
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-AN alternative

Hi guys, I'm doing a full rebuild of an S4 TII with a 67mm T4 and about 7500cc's of available gasoline. I'll be aiming for 500-600 rwhp detuned to about 400 for the street. My question is are there great advantages to using steel braided lines with -AN connectors over high pressure rubber or hard lines; or using steel braided lines with connectors other than -AN?

I don't mind paying for quality parts. But I am on a budget and while pretty is nice the -AN connectors I've found are more than I want to pay just for pretty. I have called some local hose shops and searched the web with no results.

If anyone has any suggestions regarding where to find less expensive -AN's or alternatives (brass, etc.) they will be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.
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Old 07-07-10, 03:21 PM
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http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/hose-heaven/

AN fittings and braided hose are not cheap, just the way it is.
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Old 07-07-10, 03:22 PM
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Rubber socketless hose can be had less expensive than steel braided. It is also lighter for the same size dash size.



An alternative *in some applications* to AN fittings are known as JIC fittings. They have the same 37 degree tapered seat. They are not made to the same tolerance as AN fittings, and there are claims that they are not as strong. For the average builder consumer, you will not have issues with them. These two links explain them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIC_fitting

http://www.mechanicsupport.com/articleStronger.html

A quick Google for JIC Fittings will show you many suppliers.

-billy

Last edited by bwaits; 07-07-10 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 07-07-10, 10:57 PM
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I have no magical low cost solution to offer you other than to shop around. Summit Racing has a stainless steel braided hose "house brand" that they put on sale from time to time. You can buy used AN fittings, adapters and complete hose assy's from airplane salvage companies. NASCAR teams also sell used fittings and hoses - sometimes after only one use. Google is your friend.

The push lock/socketless hose works well for fuel but I would not consider running it under a car unshielded....it is only rubber after all. Also it is not suitable for oil cooler lines because it simply cannot handle the oil temps our engines generate. I have been there done that and it cost me an engine.

While braided lines are not cheap, they do last a long time, the fittings are reuseable and they are safer than rubber hoses. If you are routing any hoses in the interior of your car you should only consider braided lines. Also some racing sanctioning bodies may require braided lines and or may restrict the amount of rubber lines on your car's fuel system. Our local strip is really picky about this.
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Old 07-08-10, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mustanghammer View Post
The push lock/socketless hose works well for fuel but I would not consider running it under a car unshielded....it is only rubber after all. Also it is not suitable for oil cooler lines because it simply cannot handle the oil temps our engines generate. I have been there done that and it cost me an engine. If you are routing any hoses in the interior of your car you should only consider braided lines. Also some racing sanctioning bodies may require braided lines and or may restrict the amount of rubber lines on your car's fuel system. Our local strip is really picky about this.

Agreed on the stainless only inside the drivers compartment, although that is a given since it is in just about every rule book.

I don't agree on the socketless hose inability to be used for oil lines. I have been using it for years in that application.

-billy
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Old 07-08-10, 10:29 AM
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It only has to fail once. Doing things the right way is almost always cheaper in the long run than doing things cheap.
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Old 07-08-10, 09:27 PM
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Thanks for the response guys. I would definitely prefer steel braided over rubber. My real hesitation has been the cost of the -AN's, which led me to contemplate alternatives, both for connectors and lines. That being said, I don't want to build a time bomb; nor do I want to drop an *** load of money on parts if I can safely and reliably get the job done for less. I'm sure those of you who don't have daddy's money dig where I'm coming from. I'll check out the JIC connectors, they may be better for my application. they're less expensive and I don't think I'll be running pressures high enough to warrant -AN's.

Does anyone have experience with or an opinion on using braided line with brass fittings?

Thanks again
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Old 07-08-10, 10:00 PM
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Iv used braided ss lines with brass fittings and havent had a problem with them.. you can find them WAY cheaper than an fittings on ebay.. good stuff
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Old 07-08-10, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bwaits_ View Post
Agreed on the stainless only inside the drivers compartment, although that is a given since it is in just about every rule book.

I don't agree on the socketless hose inability to be used for oil lines. I have been using it for years in that application.

-billy
Well hopefully you don't experience what I did. I had a -10 Aeroquip push lock hose come off of an Aeroquip fitting on my oil cooler. This was the line out of the engine to the cooler. The hose swelled due to heat and came off. It was not cut, split or damaged in anyway. It just came off and it was installed per Aeroquip instructions with no hose clamp. The hose was about 2 seasons old.

The failure cost me a race - I was gridded 3rd in a 28 car IT field - and a Prather Racing engine.

The hose is rated at 250 degrees. The oil coming out of the engine is hotter than that especially later in a race. In this case the hose came off before the end of the first lap. This has happened to other people - Steven Burkett E Production at Memphis.

In my opinion you are dancing with the devil if you use this hose on a rotary for oil cooler lines.

I do still use this hose to plumb my fuel pumps at the fuel cell.
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Old 07-08-10, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by infinite7z View Post
Iv used braided ss lines with brass fittings and havent had a problem with them.. you can find them WAY cheaper than an fittings on ebay.. good stuff
What is the angle of the brass fittings? Not sure I would mix 37 degree AN with 45 degree gas fittings. Leaks suck....glad it works for you but just sayin'
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Old 07-08-10, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by fastfc21 View Post
Thanks for the response guys. I would definitely prefer steel braided over rubber. My real hesitation has been the cost of the -AN's, which led me to contemplate alternatives, both for connectors and lines. That being said, I don't want to build a time bomb; nor do I want to drop an *** load of money on parts if I can safely and reliably get the job done for less. I'm sure those of you who don't have daddy's money dig where I'm coming from. I'll check out the JIC connectors, they may be better for my application. they're less expensive and I don't think I'll be running pressures high enough to warrant -AN's.

Does anyone have experience with or an opinion on using braided line with brass fittings?

Thanks again
Hmmm....I haven't been able to get my daddy to fund my car hobby for years. I'm a racer on a budget too but when it comes to doing things right I don't cut corners. When I have it cost me more money that I don't have.

AN Braided hose isn't bling it is a necessary part of a properly plumbed racecar.
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Old 07-08-10, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mustanghammer View Post
Well hopefully you don't experience what I did. I had a -10 Aeroquip push lock hose come off of an Aeroquip fitting on my oil cooler. This was the line out of the engine to the cooler. The hose swelled due to heat and came off. It was not cut, split or damaged in anyway. It just came off and it was installed per Aeroquip instructions with no hose clamp. The hose was about 2 seasons old.

The failure cost me a race - I was gridded 3rd in a 28 car IT field - and a Prather Racing engine.

The hose is rated at 250 degrees. The oil coming out of the engine is hotter than that especially later in a race. In this case the hose came off before the end of the first lap. This has happened to other people - Steven Burkett E Production at Memphis.

In my opinion you are dancing with the devil if you use this hose on a rotary for oil cooler lines.

I do still use this hose to plumb my fuel pumps at the fuel cell.
I have used the pushlock hose for oil lines without any issues, but if in doubt use an Oetikker clamp to seal them off.

A couple of things about AN fittings and hose I have found over the years-

Try REALLY hard not to mix brands of hose/fittings. Even though they are somewhat standardized, there are differences and when dealing with important engine or hydraulic bits I go for less risk every time.

ALWAYS inspect your AN fittings and hoses at least once a year. If your tracking the car, inspect every single line after every single event. Yes, its a PITA, but then so is losing an engine, your brakes, or other important things in the middle of an event.

The rule of thumb used to be to replace brake lines every year or so, but it seems like the quality has come up to the point many just inspect them often. Having lost a -3 brake line that probably should have been replaced the season before, I now rebuild/replace them every year or so.

I use superstock or pushlock hose almost exclusively now for oil lines, fuel lines, etc. to save weight. If I really need to save weight XRP, AeroQuip, and Goodridge all make very good high quality super liteweight hose, but its pricey. The superstock hose has the added advantage of not scratching everything it touches.
Braided hose still has its place where the risk of cutting or abrasion exists, but again because of weight concerns I really try to use it sparingly.

Let me stress again, street cars using AN hoses should inspect them at least once a year, and race cars being raced, especially road race, drift, etc cars should inspect the hoses after each event.
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Old 07-09-10, 11:04 AM
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I have to agree with using the AN fittings. A race car sees a lot more stresses than a street car and it only takes one $0.25 part failure to cost a race. As well, shooting fuel from a popped off fuel line onto a hot engine could cost you the car, same with hot oil misting everywhere. I raced for years on under $3000 a year and if I replaced a stock line I put in an AN line in its place. Think about building a race car as a longer term investment in good parts. Even in a crash most parts can be salvaged to the next race car. I also like to think of this in the same bucket as helmets. If you have a cheap head, buy a cheap helmet. If you like your head look for the best protection you can afford.

P.s. I completely agree about cross matching brands being a bad idea.
My $0.02
-Trent
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Old 07-09-10, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mustanghammer View Post
Well hopefully you don't experience what I did. I had a -10 Aeroquip push lock hose come off of an Aeroquip fitting on my oil cooler.
I see, the joint failed not the hose, I can see that. I see they say clamps are not needed but I always use a clamp. The aeroquip socketless hose I use is rated for engine oils and 300 degrees.

Originally Posted by Aeroquip
"Aeroquip's AQP socketless racing hose is constructed from AQP elastomer, with a smooth inner bore for flexibility and special textile braid reinforcement for strength. What does this mean to you? No more wrenches, no more sockets, and no more scraping your knuckles trying to install new hose. It's compatible with most fuels, coolants, and oils. Plus, with a temperature range of -55 to 300 degrees F, and a maximum pressure rating of up to 250 psi, it'll handle most plumbing jobs safely and securely."
Originally Posted by D Walker View Post
I have used the pushlock hose for oil lines without any issues, but if in doubt use an Oetikker clamp to seal them off.
Agreed.

Last edited by bwaits; 07-09-10 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 07-12-10, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bwaits_ View Post
I see, the joint failed not the hose, I can see that. I see they say clamps are not needed but I always use a clamp. The aeroquip socketless hose I use is rated for engine oils and 300 degrees..
Not to beat a dead horse...but for the sake of clarity the hose failed. It came off of the barb. It expanded due to heat. The Aeroquip fitting was not loose on the cooler and the hose was not leaking before the race....I checked.

Any who.....I do like working with push lock hose and I had a ton of it on my old Solo II Mustang and it worked great. Just not my racecar anymore....
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