0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

Right now my car is a daily driven street car, but is getting progressively built towards race only. I have been looking at everything I will need for this when I get a new daily driver. One thing I can't figure out is the fuel cell. Right now I am looking at the Fuel Safe Enduro Fuel Cell, 22gal (ED122A).

My main thought is the mounting of it. The measurements are practically the same as stock, so I was thinking of mounting in the stock position. Are there any problems with that or better way to do it without butchering the entire rear of the car? The fillerneck is also giving me trouble. How should that be routed? Can I somehow route it back to the factory filler location with little trouble or is there a better way to do this?

I guess I just need any input you guys can give me cause I have an idea of what I want but not the specifics yet.

Thanks
M-P

DigDug

I'm not sure how you can avoid the "butchering" aspect of this task, if you're looking for a legal setup - you have to follow certain installation guidelines if you are going to be competing with this car. These do not generally coincide with any type of bolt-in installation, as far as I know...

DigDug

Hmmm, just came across this:

http://www.atlinc.com/racing/page10.htm

The "Well Cell" might be something along the lines of what you're looking for, though the capacity is rather small, and who knows how it fits in an FD. Related to that cell, I found this:

http://e30m3performance.com/installs...ell/cell_1.htm

These installation notes are from an M3, but it shows a good picture of it installed.

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

Thanks alot for finding that for me. I saw those but never really put much thought toward it, just because of the size. 12 gallons seems small for any kind of small for street use, but I guess it wouldn't really matter that much because I rarely have even 3/4 of my tank full.

Ok whether or not I get that fuel cell or I cut up the rear to fit a larger one I will need a new external fuel pump. What pump would you recommend. My mods are in my sig and I will be porting the motor this summer and expect 450 rwhp.

Also do you happen to know how much the stock fuel tank weighs. I'm not extremely concerned with the weight, but I just like to know what kind of weight savings I am talking about.

M-P

Carl Byck

Drop the stock tank, and measure the space, I can fit an ATL cell in the stock location in my FC, 15 gallons, ~same as stock. A 22 could go, but it would be tight, and run all the way to the rear bumper. Sould be relatively straight forward IMHO, you just need to figure out a vent system. BTW a 15 gallon cell from ATL is 529.00, a Fuel Safe is ~1500.00, somebody show me the 1000.00.............................
Alternately, you could buy a bladder, foam, and the pickups, and make one to fit.

DigDug

I run a dual-pump setup with a 1-quart surge tank. Each pump has its own pickup in one of the back corners of the cell. Also, I have pent up the bottom of the cell (hammer time!), so the pickups are at the lowest possible locations in the cell. This setup works beautifully for me.

If you want more details, I would be more than happy to share.

450WHP will be loads of fun on the track!

cpa7man

iTrader: (2)

Thats for sure! I think some big, big brakes are in order!

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

DigDug: any information you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I am quite serious about doing this to my car in the near future. Would you mind sharing any pics of your setup if you have them. Thanks alot.

Yea, I agree that big brakes will be in order. I am liking the new 332mm Stoptech front kit that is being built (talked about alot in 3rd gen section) and probably will do RZ rear brakes or something along those lines to balance out the system.

M-P

DigDug

Sure, no problem, I will post some pics and details tonight when I get home.

1RedR1and1RedPEP

A while back I was told Fuel Safe had a stock FD fuel tank that a FD "Tuner" had sent them to Copy and was concidering making a bolt in legal tank, Like they do for 911s and mustangs. I dont know if the demand was enough to warrant production. Id be interested if they really make it.
1R1

DigDug

Yeah, I've seen these app-specific cells for the popular makes too. I did actually try to find one for the FD at one point, but I had no luck. Maybe they sell one now?

Sorry, I got home kinda late last night, and forgot to post the pics - I'll post them tonight for sure!

EProdRx7

I have a Fuel safe enduro 22gal in my shop used with the can if you are interested $200 pm me for details.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

A 22gal ATL fit my FC like a glove. All I had to do was cut the floor pan where the stock tank was, drop it in and bolt it down. The frame rails are spaced the same as the width of the tank so it was a natural choice. Like the adage says, "measure twice and cut once". Custom cells can be built if yu want to spend the cash.

As far as using th stock filler kneck, it's certainly possible. The only thing you'd have to do to make it SCCA legal is make sure the hose you use to connect the cell with the filler is covered in sheet metal so that it is not exposed to the driver's compartment. The long kneck "shouldn't" be of concern because of the one way flapper in the tank. But having seen a few cells ripped from there mounts and go up in large fire ***** in various NASCAR events it might be a good idea to use the short kneck???

I used a single pickup in the rear/center of the tank with ATL's in-tank surge tank. The lift pump (Holley Blue) pulls from that and feeds a 1qt external surge tank which the Wahlbro HP pump is fed by. It will suck every last drop from the tank before it quits. You get about 1 mile of warning before the tank is bone dry. Don't ask how I know this.

Oh, and I just saw in GRM that ATL or Fuel Safe has a new in-tank fuel pump setup. Works just like a stock setup where the HP fuel injection pump sits in the tank. Eliminates the need for a lift pump.

DigDug

Sorry it took me so long to post this stuff...

And I hope this isn't too many pictures - I scaled them down quite a bit from the originals.

Here are some pics of my fuel cell installation. As I said, it is a dual-pump setup, with a 1-qt external surge tank (which has its own pump as well). The drybreak is not a necessary part of this setup - I could use a plate with a standard fill cap if I were so inclined. Also note that the cell normally has a sheet metal cover over it, which I removed to take the pictures.





Here's a couple shots from the driver's side:



This one's interesting - check out the rear sway bar peeking through...


From underneath:




The surge tank, with a nice little debris shield between it and the tire:


The cell is mounted to a subframe that is welded to the chassis. The cell is supported from underneath by straps, and is bolted down to the subframe:


Top-down view of the driver's side, showing the top of the surge tank and its deflector:


I'll post some more details on the setup and its components if you like.

DigDug

Hehe, fuel level senders are nice! Of course, they only work if you observe the indicator - last summer at Summit Point, I wasn't paying enough attention to the fuel level, and I started to get some surge in turn one. I backed off a good bit, but the surge got progressively worse very quickly. Coming out of carousel into the esses, the engine quit! I had to roll it into the access road to get off the track.

So that's like 0.6 or so miles from first surge to no gas!

If I had been paying attention to the fuel light, which was working, I would have come in before that last trip down the straight. I guess it's better to have tested it than to not know what would happen if you did run out of gas.

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

Thanks alot Digdug for all the pictures. I looked at your mainpage from those links and liked the metal you have over the top.

Any info you could give me on the setup would be awesome. I am hoping to get this done soon. What fuel pumps do you have and would they be enough for my single turbo ported motor? Those lines are very confusing too. How they are T'ed from the surge tank and all. I know the purpose of a surge tank but am not too keen on exactly how they work and are hooked up.

Thanks for all this info. Ever need info on a
single turbo setup I would be glad to help, haha.

M-P

suganuma

where's that vent line going to?

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Here's one of my install. This was taken before the cage went in and the associated fuel cell cover which is mandatory. It was made out of aluminum and basically cover the entire rear portion of the car from the cage downtubes back. You can see the front of the cover in the 2nd pic.

DigDug, is that dry break lid a standard part or did you have that made?

A vent line can run anywhere to the outside of the car. I ran mine to the area where the liscense plate would be.

DigDug

Once again, sorry it took me so long to reply - been very busy lately...

Anyways, the two pumps mounted to the cell are, IIRC, 190LPH units. They are standard inline pumps. The surge tank pump is a 255LPH inline unit.

The hoses look complicated, but it's really rather simple. There are a total of four hoses entering the fuel cell at top: two of them run to pickups inside the cell and to their respective pumps outside the cell; one is a vent hose (more on that in a minute); and one is a return line from the surge tank. So each pump is fed from a pickup in the cell, and the outputs of the two pumps are teed together and dump into the surge tank. A hose runs from the surge tank back into the cell as a return line. Then another hose runs from the output of the surge tank pump (which has a pickup at the bottom of the surge tank) forward to the fuel filter and the rest of the fuel system - the final output of this whole contraption.

The vent line goes to a discriminator valve, mounted to the rear suspension tower brace. Then another hose runs from the output side of the valve back down through the opening on the driver's side of the cell, and hangs open underneath the chassis near the surge tank (just behind the deflector).

The discriminator valve allows positive pressure to escape from the cell under normal conditions, plus when refueling, the buoyant ball pops up to the top of the chamber and closes the valve when the cell is full, preventing the remaining fuel in the dump can from simply flowing into the cell, out the vent tube, and being dumped out on the ground. Instead, when you see the ball pop up, you know the cell is full - then just break the can away from the cell, and no fuel is poured out in pit lane as a result. A discriminator valve isn't required, but it certainly makes things cleaner if you do pitstop refueling. If you don't do pitstop refueling, it is entirely unnecessary, as is the drybreak adapter.

Discriminator valves also double as a rollover valve to close off the vent tube if the car rolls over onto its top.

I wouldn't expect any club racer to need such a complicated setup. I, however, do not mind having an overbuilt fuel system, as the 13B is quite particular about having plenty of fuel available at all times. If/when the time comes that I really need it, it's good to know that it's already taken care of!

As a side note, I did email Fuel Safe (again) about the FD application, and the rep told me to call him because he has a drawing for that application. So I guess they do in fact have the data to make one to bolt up to the FD, but I don't know how much it would cost. I would start with that, if I were looking to add a fuel cell to an FD that was starting with a stock fuel system. Just make sure a surge tank is factored in somehow, as the FD easily produces the cornering loads to need it.

C. Ludwig - the drybreak is an ex-IMSA Redhead unit. They are still around, but not the current standard drybreak that everybody uses. This one flows 2gals/sec though, so it's just as good in terms of fuel flow.

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

Wow thanks again Digdug for all your help. I don't mind the wait because the fuel cell is not my next project, got a few things to do first, just an upcoming project.

Fuel system stuff if the one gray area in what I know about cars. I know stuff about injectors and pressure regulators, but not so much about pumps and tanks. Those Dual 190lph pumps could pump at 380 lph together, but you only have a 255lph pump going to the surge tank, so does that mean that the max capabilities of your fuel system is running at 255lph? If not how does that work?

One thing I definately don't want is to run a fuel pump that won't pump enough. Where can I find out how much lph is needed to run a certain amount of power in our cars. I have the injectors to handle everything.

I was looking around the internet at fuel cells (atl and fuel safe to be exact) and ran across this fuelsafe cell.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/fsafe2a.htm

It has the overhaning edges on the side, could I just cut out the exact size of the cell and just let the egde hang over and bolt it down, like it looks like it is made for and have the surgetank sit next to it kind of like Digdug's. I wish I could show you the picture I have in my mind, but its kinda hard to convey.

M-P

DigDug

Well, it's a bit more dynamic than that, in theory at least - the surge tank pump is the one that really supplies the engine, so the maximum flow rate to the engine is 255LPH, which is good for well over 600HP. Of course, this pump cannot supply fuel that it doesn't have, so that figure depends on the other two pumps being able to supply at least 255LPH combined to the surge tank, which they normally can easily provide. However, when fuel comes off one of the pickups (usually when cornering with less than about half a tank of fuel), the supply to the surge tank cuts to around 190LPH, as one of the pumps is not supplying fuel. On the track, this is a momentary condition - I suppose if you were on a skidpad you would be able to sustain it, but that's not really practical use IMO. So in that situation, the effective maximum flow rate from the cell is around 190LPH - theoretically, the surge tank pump could empty the surge tank if you sustain this condition long enough, but this never really happens in practice. Once again, the idea is that this is a momentary condition on track, and the surge tank has the capacity to provide fuel through these "dryer" times.

The dual pumps are a measure to ensure that there is always some amount of fuel being supplied to the surge tank, so its supply is always being replenished, even when holding a long, flat-out corner. The main pump might be gradually draining the surge tank, but at least the one pump that is supplying the surge tank will give you that much longer before hitting empty.

And once again, in practice, I never get surge unless the tank is empty.

255LPH should probably be your target flow rate for your fuel pump, given that you expect 450HP or more. Just run a single pump from the cell to the surge tank of the same flow rate, and you shouldn't have any issues. Place the pickup at the rear-center of the cell. This setup should be more than adequate for any club racing application.

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

Alright. Thanks alot for clearing that up for me Digdug.

DigDug

No problem. If you have any more questions let me know.