KZ1

I am fed up with the map section, it is a dissaster. Half the maps are the same, and other half have like 6 cells changed. does changing fuel from 122 to 120 mean yopu have custom map, I don't think so.

I want to finally answer what maps are whose, in order of stock, wether by ray or XS. Enough of this base stock, base mods crap. This is what my impression is like so far.

Base mod if you will, or the first base map listed is the real base maps, what the PFC comes with if someone hasn't gotten their hands on it. base stock is not stock, but was made by SR. all the houstons, etc, all the ignition timing is the same with either stock or the SR maps. There was some talk that that SR timing maps(base stock) were for large ported engines. well... that doesn't make any sense they are more advanced. at 22 and 25. I suspect they are just typical setup fro SR. Next thing I woudl lke to see is the XS timing maps. Can someone who has sent in their PFC, please tells us which timing maps you have? base or the SR(base stock) for if they match spyfish's(aka, base stock, houston 2, SR) maybe then they are some sort of stock setup. However, I highly doubt it.

I woudl just like to take a peak what the major tuning shops do, that is it! I think it woudl be helpful to get some clarity.

Thanks guys.

BTW, maybve some PFC bought from SR had maps plugged into them by them, thus the illusion they are stock. I don;t know. Just correct me if I am wrong

Jonesboro

Amen!

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Houston set 1 and 2 were sent in by me, and both were set up by Ray. Set 2 has a lot of retard compared to set 1 because the owner runs a 50 shot of nitrous. Neither of these sets have been modified or dyno tested. They are as came in the PFC.

Since receiving my PFC and before tuning it, I went to a large FMIC and replaced the cat with a MP.

I have not reposted my maps because they are a works in progress. But since you-all are impatient
I'll attach my dyno maps here and my newer to still be tested maps on the next post page.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

My current not tested set, has more timing advance.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

The so called base mod set is really a very conservative starter set to prevent blowing your engine but does not produce much power as compared to a tuned set. The posted XS set for a single turbo(set 5) are close to my new not tested maps and I will probably be adding another +2 degrees in some of the cells after my 2nd dyno session.

Why more advance, go read the long thread on the single turbo forum started by Monsen about timing and tuning. There are actually a few good threads there.

forcefed1

wHAT IS THIS **** your tellin me the maps section is a mess. Here we have a map that is setup for a 50 shot of NOS and no mention if it on the mods list.
we really need a comments section that gets used for all the maps.
The comments section can have things in it like who the map was "tuned" by, where the data came from (ie the timing is from base mod with little or no change)
or here is an imortant one to NOTE. I had this map for 700 miles then blew my engine with no change. Or BaseMod could say "this map is tuned for everyday street use in all temps and very safe starting point but will make low power."

Perhaps the best thing to do, have a sticky thread for EACH map entitled COMMENTS... this way I could click base mod and see "I have been running this map for 30K with the same mods and only monor changes.. . One thing I should mention, rather then the FP i have a 200 shot of NOS"
Or "i have these mods and then I dyno tuned essentially starting with this map, here is my resulting map, notice the only thing I did is lean it out at IDLE"

:p

I think you all get the hint for this maps thing to work better, It needs to be easier to research others experience with that map.

mmaragos

Not to increase the disorder, but what do the XS maps tell us? They are able to remap what we cannot see with the commander, how can we guarantee that we know what all of the timing and fuel changes were with a map from XS?

http://www.exorzero.com/skotx/powerfc/

It would be nice to integrate this into the forum and expand on it.

Can't wait until I get the Datalogit. Dammit.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

My tuning buddy Kyle is in the datalogic group, and plans to buy it. He is also the major owner in our M&W UEGO linear O2 sensor group.

According to him, the datalogic developers have discovered that there isn't a hidden fuel map. What you see with the commander is the real timing maps. I ask a few times for XS programmed pfc owners to compare displayed timing with what is in the cells as verification. None have done it yet.

Many of you want answers but few are willing to help find them!

KZ1

Timing is what we are concerned with. and I have to emphasize that houston2 is really only base mod( really the base map) no matter were it comes from, therfore, if it is more retared than houston 1(actually what is know as SR or base stock maps) becasue of nitrous, then my base map is setup for Nitrous????? I don't think so, this map you talk about that is so conservative is just the base PFC map.

There are only 2 maps ones this server, (maybe three if XS is up there, I haven't looked in while) the base map, and some other map clearly not made by APexi, rumour is that it i sSR motrosports. This second map is more advanced timming up top, and lower at transition of turbos. Sounds to me like just a standard tweak job. WHo knows, maybe guys liek XS stick out same timming for everything, or maybe they have one for stock port, streetport, etc. I doubt they have differnt fuel maps for all types of setups.

mmaragos

That's interesting that there are no hidden base maps. Good tid-bit. Thanks.

I will help out, but I don't have all the tools yet. I don't have the XS maps either. As soon as I finish my upgrades (fuel & intercooler) and get the Datalogit and wideband, I will be tuning and tweaking.

I'll post as soon as I have something good to contribute.

SPOautos

Ok, I downloaded Spyfish's map and input my numbers into it. I've included everything basically every field that is tuneable from the commander. This map is a map that XS did. They supposedly tuned it from my mods which is intake, full exhaust, IC like the M2med, 1200cc sec, upgraded fuel pump, street port and I told them I would be running 14psi of boost.

The only field I changed was the % that out past the boost.

I was planning on running a ghost trace and see if the timing map = what is seen in the monitor section but I have a boost leak and can do it till I fix my boost prob.

All my info was emailed to Jason last night so he could put it up but its not there yet.

Oh yea, here is one other thing I did......

On the fuel map that shows numbers like "110" if you click on the field you'll notice the number is really 1.100? there is a digit that is cut off on the main screen. You can only see it if you click on the field. Anyway, one the bottom of that spread sheet I made a "key" that shows what each number corresponds to when you click on it. In other words for a example I would have something like this 110=1.104 (I cant remember the actual #'s this is just an example)

I hope it helps someone since I paid $150 and 4 hours of my time to help you guys. Actually since I've had mine tuned there 2x I've spend $300

Later,
STEPHEN

KZ1

Thank you very much, at last. So, let me see if I can get this straight. Also has anyone sent theirs to XS and not had street port. Do they use the same timing? SPOautos, are you still sequential? not that it shoudl maek differnce.

Spyfish is XS, which is also "base stock". SO base stock has nothign to do with what PFC came with except maybe if you buy it from XS. We need to rename the map section. and delete a bunch of them.

I feel like we are gettign somewhere now.!!!!!!

skotx

So KZ1, you don't think the fuel map differences are important and therefore maps are the same based on timing alone?

How can you compare Houston2 and Base Mod and say they are the same when looking at timing? It looks more like Base Stock with a large block of changes beginning at boost over 2800 RPM. Perhaps you just mis-typed.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want to know the basis for your opinions.

---
According to him, the datalogic developers have discovered that there isn't a hidden fuel map. What you see with the commander is the real timing maps.

Chuck, just to make sure the horse is dead, are you saying that there are no "hidden, magical" base maps at all, for INJ or timing? Or that what we see is what we get for timing, but there is still a base fuel map that is inaccesible to those without the Power Excel software?

I've got more to say but I should probably get back to work.

SPOautos

Yes, my map is for stock sequential twins.

I dont think that Spyfish's map was from XS, I think he tuned it himself. My timing was vastly different than his but I dont know how different mine is from stock. The only map I've compared mine to is Spyfish so I dont know how it compares to the stock PFC map. There were also a few correction factors that were different, like water temp and injector info.....I have different inj than Spyfish.

On the main page of the fuel map there are only 4 fields that are different from Spyfish's map. Its the bottom left 4 fields. I believe in Spyfish's map it showed 121 and mine shows 130. I dont know if the last digits that shows up when you click on the field is different from my XS map versus other maps because you can only see it in the commander. That last digit doesnt show up on these spreadsheets. This is why I documented mine, people can compare that last digit with thiers to make sure its the same. For all I know XS might have changed that last digit.

Jason told me my map would be up sometime today.

Later,
STEPHEN

skotx

I don't know how many people have been using my site, but it's dead right now, which sucks since this seems like a good time to be using it. My friend hosts the site for me so that allows me to provide the tool for you guys without annoying banners, ads, or pop-ups.

If you really want to run some comparisons, you can use this http://24.251.248.185/powerfc/. But please do so only temporarily.

Regarding the site in general, I've got plenty of room for things like notes, comparisons, whatever. If you guys think the site is useful I'll put in the time to make it as good as possble. With the AEM stuff coming down the pike, the tuning process is only going to get more complicated.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

After I posted "According to him, the datalogic developers have discovered that there isn't a hidden fuel map. What you see with the commander is the real timing maps" I saw a mistake but it was too late to change it.

The word "fuel" should have been timing.

No hidden timing maps.

SPOautos

So your saying it is still possible that there is a hidden fuel map. I wonder if the way the fuel map #'s change when you click on the field has something to do with that. I find it very strange that they would label the fields with numbers that read different when you click on them. I wonder if that number just points to a certain field of a hidden fuel map that no one can see. If thats the case the main page could remain the same and they could be changing the amounts on the hidden map. This might explain why the main page of my fuel map and Spyfishes map were the same except for 4 fields.

When my map gets posted can someone look at the coresponding numbers I entered in at the bottom of my fuel map and see if it is the same as thiers?

Later,
STEPHEN

forcefed1

sounds great to me we'll have to fing a good way for you to handle comments.
I think comments from the original owner are good. But comments from the rest of us sunning the maps will also be very helpful.

I think this may become a pain in the but, However, the first thing I did with your page it copy paste the data to excell to SEE the graphicel maps.
would it be a problem/to much to ask for you to include the graph of teh maps also.
BTW your page is very print friendly and that is KEY.
Keep up the great work.

KZ1

sorry, right, houston 2 is from base stock. houston 1 is from basemod. the houston maps do haev changes, but clearly come from the respective base maps. houston 2, just get's gunshy with the timming at high end, and has it all retardeed 3 deg.

Spyfishes match perfectly though. Fuel is easliy measurable. It is easy to see if you are running rich or lean. It is much more difficult to tell wether you require more advance or retard. the only realy way to emasure it is by rwhp.

I thought SPO autos said his maps were same as spyfish's, my mistake. SPOautos, do your maps match any that are up on forum?

I am going to run both the basestcok "spyfish" at the dyno this weekend, then do next run with base maps from PFC. then we will get good idea what the advantage is. Only wish I had my FC datalogit already to log everything for me.

Chadwick

iTrader: (12)

My understanding is that there is a base fuel map that is not seen with the Commander. What is altered by the Commander is the Inj map, which adds fuel on top of the base fuel map.

Dan

SPOautos

So far I've only looked at 3 and mine doesnt match any of those three. I looked at the #1 map which is only fuel so its probably pointless anyway. I compared some of the cells in the #2 map to mine and there were quite a few differences in it and mine. The last timing map I compared is Spyfish's, about 50% of our cells are different.

When my map gets posted you can check it out and make your own decision but from what I could tell mine seems a little more advanced in the mid boost sections like maybe up to 12psi but then starts to retard at a faster pace than Spyfish's at higher boost levels.

I spend alot of time recording the data and entering it in last night and I've been at work today so I havent had much time to sit down and do a good comparison. I could be way off in my evaluation but I do know that they are quite different than mine.

Later,
STEPHEN

skotx

Ok, so let's get a running list of facts about the PFC that we believe to be absolutely true. If you state something, try to back it up.

1) The Power FC has a Basic Fuel Injection map that is not accesible from the Commander... only Power Excel shops can modify this map. What is available to the user is a correction map, which is represented by the values of the INJ map. (All of this comes from the manual.)

2) #1 does not affect engine timing (IGL & IGT). The values shown are not correction values, but indeed the actual degrees of timing used by the engine. (This comes from the Datalogit guys, whom I think we can trust.)

3) A dificulty exists in comparing Power Excel-tuned maps with those tuned by other means. This is because of changes to the basic fuel map made by the former shops (see #1). In theory, the IGL and IGT maps should be able to be compared one to one, but some have suggested that even this is skewed by the "hidden" tuning because of the relationship between fuel and timing.

4) ... ?

-----
forcefed1,

Thanks for the comments. Getting complex graphs on the web will not be an easy task, however I may be able to do it with some sort of plug in. I'll look into it. I'm glad you appreciate it being printer friendly. That was one of my goals all along.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Ok, some information for you guys. I blew my motor (5 out of the 6 apex seals) b/c of the ******* power fc, so I've been trying to get to the bottom of this whole situation. I was running the fuel maps posted on the forum and some of Chuck Westbrook's old ignition maps at about 13#.

(1) A gentleman by the name of Tri at XS Engineering told me that there *are* hidden base maps for *both* ignition timing and fuel. The maps that all off us can access via the commander are simply correction maps. XS will "ballpark" tune the FC (based on your mods you give them) for $150 through the base maps; them the best thing do to is fine tuning on the dyno.

(2) Dave at KDR told me that he is positive that there are hidden base maps for both ignition timing and fuel.

(3) Chris at RP told me that he knows *without a doubt* that XS Engineering is the *only* company in the U.S. with the ability to alter the base maps.

This tells me that SR doesn't alter the base maps, just the correction maps. It also tells me that as long as XS hasn't touched your Power FC, we *should* be able to use correction maps interchangeably. This assumes that we all bought our FCs with the same base maps. Frankly, I'm sick of assuming. I'm leaning toward sending my FC to XS to avoid another blown motor.

If anyone has any further info, feel free to comment...

Chadwick

iTrader: (12)

Goodfella,
All 3 of those are incorrect.

1&2 The guys at Datalog have been inside and out of the PFC and have found no SUPER SECRET hidden IGT or IGL maps. Chuck also backed this up with his test. Now as mentioned, other things can come into play that effects timing that are not shown by the Commander, but they all seem to retard timing so they should not be an issue.

3. SR is list as a Apexi Power Excel dealer on their website so they would also have the ability to alter the hidden features.

I'm sure we all will know a hell of alot more once the Datalog software gets in the right hands.


Dan

Chadwick

iTrader: (12)

By the way, I'm not saying that you are incorrect, just what the others are telling appears to be incorrect.

Dan