Power FC Final word on PFC maps, stock, SR, XS
01-18-02, 08:37 PM
#51
NYC's Loudest FD
OK guys, here's the deal, I spoke to XSPOWER and I asked him to answer all the questions that he possibly can on this thread, he's gonna answer as soon as he gets back from Japan, he should be back next week sometime, so be patient, he's really busy.
01-19-02, 04:07 PM
#52
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Alright, I found some time here to review what you guys have been talking about. To answer some questions:
1. Technically there are no hidden timing maps. There are hidden correction factors that DO affect timing. However, there are hidden timing maps for idle. Ever try to change your timing at or around idle? You can't. On stock engine/stock turbo combinations we almost never touch these corrections, but on large turbo, ported engine, large injector combinations, you MUST change these correction factors to have a perfectly driving car. Before anybody starts bashing me, everybody's definition of "perfect" is different. What's perfect to you, may be far from perfect for us or vice versa. To give you an idea of what we consider perfect driveability, one of the tuners drives a Lexus GS and the other drives a Supra Turbo. And yes, they do own rotaries too.
2. If you guys are frustrated with the lack of user tuneability, go and buy a Datalogit. It seems like a great package for those of you do-it yourselfers. Sure, it's inferior to the FC PRO, but for $280, it seems like a good deal. Before you guys start bombing on me for calling the Datalogit inferior, well.....it just is. The only way I could explain is if you used the FC PRO before. I'm sure the Datalogit will evolve over time as those guys seem to know what they're doing. Anyways, for you do it yourselfers, just remember that the Power FC isn't a kitchen cabinet and the Rotary engine isn't a bathroom sink. Make sure you know what you are doing before even attempting to tune a Rotary. The reason why Apex can make a computer like the Power FC so affordable at such low production numbers is because they make money from tuning shops when they lease the FC PRO tuning software. This is how the FC PRO gets to you guys at $980 or less. It's not like Apex produces hundreds of thousands of these things. I talked to some engineers at AEM about the Power FC and they said, "HOW THE HELL DID APEX MAKE AN ECU REPLACEMENT FOR ONLY $980 MSRP?!?!?!?" I guess that explains why "The Box" is $1740 MSRP. Because they give the software away and don't make any money from tuning shops. However, AEM will have a set of authorized tuners for "The Box" in the near future. They wanted to know if we were interested.
3. Why did we change injector lag times? As somebody posted, we don't like to talk about our tuning. This is very true because we've spent countless hours developing alot of these programs and we're not about to give them away. All you guys need to know is that if you purchase a program from us, it works. If our programs get out because of the Datalogit, fine so be it. I'm not sure if the Datalogit can get past our password protection, but good luck to the hackers out there. We'll tell you guys about a particular program like, yeah we advance the timing here or there, add a little fuel here or there, the rev limiter is here or there, but thats about it. I don't want to come off as arrogant, but this is how we make our living. I'm sure you guys understand. You guys on the other hand can use the power of the web and create a really strong information database and create your own programs. That's great for you guys and more power to you.
4. Yes there are "hidden" fuel maps. Its not that they are hidden, it's just that the Commander doesn't allow you to view them. Somebody said back there that the hidden fuel maps are only for idle. This is incorrect. There is a "hidden" base injection time map and then once again there are correction factors that are "hidden".
I hope this answers some questions.
1. Technically there are no hidden timing maps. There are hidden correction factors that DO affect timing. However, there are hidden timing maps for idle. Ever try to change your timing at or around idle? You can't. On stock engine/stock turbo combinations we almost never touch these corrections, but on large turbo, ported engine, large injector combinations, you MUST change these correction factors to have a perfectly driving car. Before anybody starts bashing me, everybody's definition of "perfect" is different. What's perfect to you, may be far from perfect for us or vice versa. To give you an idea of what we consider perfect driveability, one of the tuners drives a Lexus GS and the other drives a Supra Turbo. And yes, they do own rotaries too.
2. If you guys are frustrated with the lack of user tuneability, go and buy a Datalogit. It seems like a great package for those of you do-it yourselfers. Sure, it's inferior to the FC PRO, but for $280, it seems like a good deal. Before you guys start bombing on me for calling the Datalogit inferior, well.....it just is. The only way I could explain is if you used the FC PRO before. I'm sure the Datalogit will evolve over time as those guys seem to know what they're doing. Anyways, for you do it yourselfers, just remember that the Power FC isn't a kitchen cabinet and the Rotary engine isn't a bathroom sink. Make sure you know what you are doing before even attempting to tune a Rotary. The reason why Apex can make a computer like the Power FC so affordable at such low production numbers is because they make money from tuning shops when they lease the FC PRO tuning software. This is how the FC PRO gets to you guys at $980 or less. It's not like Apex produces hundreds of thousands of these things. I talked to some engineers at AEM about the Power FC and they said, "HOW THE HELL DID APEX MAKE AN ECU REPLACEMENT FOR ONLY $980 MSRP?!?!?!?" I guess that explains why "The Box" is $1740 MSRP. Because they give the software away and don't make any money from tuning shops. However, AEM will have a set of authorized tuners for "The Box" in the near future. They wanted to know if we were interested.
3. Why did we change injector lag times? As somebody posted, we don't like to talk about our tuning. This is very true because we've spent countless hours developing alot of these programs and we're not about to give them away. All you guys need to know is that if you purchase a program from us, it works. If our programs get out because of the Datalogit, fine so be it. I'm not sure if the Datalogit can get past our password protection, but good luck to the hackers out there. We'll tell you guys about a particular program like, yeah we advance the timing here or there, add a little fuel here or there, the rev limiter is here or there, but thats about it. I don't want to come off as arrogant, but this is how we make our living. I'm sure you guys understand. You guys on the other hand can use the power of the web and create a really strong information database and create your own programs. That's great for you guys and more power to you.
4. Yes there are "hidden" fuel maps. Its not that they are hidden, it's just that the Commander doesn't allow you to view them. Somebody said back there that the hidden fuel maps are only for idle. This is incorrect. There is a "hidden" base injection time map and then once again there are correction factors that are "hidden".
I hope this answers some questions.
Last edited by XSPOWER; 01-19-02 at 04:18 PM.
01-19-02, 05:14 PM
#53
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Well dont that just suck!
Its no wonder many ppl consider the 350 conversion on failure. I think these foreign companies need to learn the value of customer support. Atleast w/ that motor comes plenty of support and service from REAL car enthusiasts who are willing to help out rather than squeezing every penny out of you. Im at the point where there is no question in what direction Im goin once my motor goes south.
If 'the box' = the AEM unit I think you need to do more research, they can be had for as low as $1200-1300.
How much profit/service will you get then.... is what u need to ask urself. I, for one, wld keep far n clear from any shop that doesnt offer support after spending a grand on one product.
Wldnt that be like buying a car from a dealer then being charged on how to utilize certain features?
Its no wonder many ppl consider the 350 conversion on failure. I think these foreign companies need to learn the value of customer support. Atleast w/ that motor comes plenty of support and service from REAL car enthusiasts who are willing to help out rather than squeezing every penny out of you. Im at the point where there is no question in what direction Im goin once my motor goes south.
I guess that explains why "The Box" is $1740 MSRP. Because they give the software away and don't make any money from tuning shops.
How much profit/service will you get then.... is what u need to ask urself. I, for one, wld keep far n clear from any shop that doesnt offer support after spending a grand on one product.
Wldnt that be like buying a car from a dealer then being charged on how to utilize certain features?
Last edited by 3rdGenLuvr; 01-19-02 at 05:30 PM.
01-19-02, 05:24 PM
#54
IRS 4 Life
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so basically the pfc is only good if youl live within the 2 x-cell uners(3 in the spring)
and the datalogit even though seems to be the savior to the pfc comunity..xs says its inferior...
sheesh glad i went haltec and dont have to worry abt *hidden* maps or passwords...and can tune anywhere with a dyno and someone with the know how...
best o luck guys..hopefully apexi will release the software to more tuners
and the datalogit even though seems to be the savior to the pfc comunity..xs says its inferior...
sheesh glad i went haltec and dont have to worry abt *hidden* maps or passwords...and can tune anywhere with a dyno and someone with the know how...
best o luck guys..hopefully apexi will release the software to more tuners
01-19-02, 05:41 PM
#55
Senior Member
Thanks for contributing XSPOWER.
The only counterpoint that I have is this. Plenty of people would still need their cars tuned by you. If Apex decided to provide tuning software to everyone, they could sell it and only through authorized dealers (good money for you, good money for them).
IMHO, I don't really believe that they decided to not release the software to make it "cheap", but this is good reasoning for PR. I understand that this seems like a good way to ensure future profits, by making your customers come to the dealer, but when there are becoming more and more ECUs with 100% disclosure, I don't think that holding back software is the best choice to ensure product longevity and success.
I expect that I will switch from the PFC in the future.
The only counterpoint that I have is this. Plenty of people would still need their cars tuned by you. If Apex decided to provide tuning software to everyone, they could sell it and only through authorized dealers (good money for you, good money for them).
IMHO, I don't really believe that they decided to not release the software to make it "cheap", but this is good reasoning for PR. I understand that this seems like a good way to ensure future profits, by making your customers come to the dealer, but when there are becoming more and more ECUs with 100% disclosure, I don't think that holding back software is the best choice to ensure product longevity and success.
I expect that I will switch from the PFC in the future.
01-20-02, 10:52 AM
#56
20B N/A Wide Body FC3S
I'm one of the people beta testing the datalogit.. It kicks *** and you can get to all that hidden stuff (ALL OF IT and more)..
In the stock program the base fuel map the fuel drops off considerably at 7200 rpms up under boost, and there is a offset fuel point where the secondary turbo starts to add boost that can be smoothed out so if any one out there is running a big single turbo/large ported engine and your running lean top end and you get that little bog at 4,500-5,500rpm under light boost thats why... buy the way SUPIRIOR datalogit for $280 that you can use over and over with every mod you add will fix all that crap if you know what your doing...
In the stock program the base fuel map the fuel drops off considerably at 7200 rpms up under boost, and there is a offset fuel point where the secondary turbo starts to add boost that can be smoothed out so if any one out there is running a big single turbo/large ported engine and your running lean top end and you get that little bog at 4,500-5,500rpm under light boost thats why... buy the way SUPIRIOR datalogit for $280 that you can use over and over with every mod you add will fix all that crap if you know what your doing...
01-20-02, 01:52 PM
#57
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XSPOWER Explains a Lot
I think that XSPOWER has shed some needed light on the PFC that explains a lot.
Now we have an explanation why there is little or no PFC customer support from APEXi. APEXi marketed the PFC based on a business model that prevails in Japan where owners of the PFC expect to go to a commercial ECU tuner and pay for tuning services. APEXi makes money off the tuning services in addition to the selling cost of the PFC itself. This explains how APEXi establishes their MSRP for the PFC at a price to attract buyers because they expect to get additional revenues (maybe more than the purchase price of the PFC itself) from the PFC tuning. Apparently not many Japanese FD3S owners are interested in doing the ECU tuning themselves. I don't know anything about the car tuning business in Japan, but I expect that commercial ECU tuners with Power Excel are widespread in Japan, the tuning business is flourishing, and therefore APEXi's business model works very well in Japan. Consequently, APEXi does not provide PFC tuning support to PFC owners because they get revenues for PFC tuning from commercial tuners.
However, it appears that the USA (and also the Aussie) market is substantially different than the Japanese market. In the USA market many (maybe most) FD3S owners want to be able to do the tuning themselves and not go to commercial tuners. Furthermore, there is not a widespread ECU tuning industry in the USA comparable to the Japan tuning industry to support a tuning revenue based business model. Therefore, APEXi's business model works in Japan but not in the USA. I think that the fact that only XSPOWER has Power Excel reflects the state of the ECU tuning industry in the USA.
It seems to me that further evidence of the validity of the above explanation lies in the difference in the MSRP pricing strategies of the PFC versus the AEM. The PFC is predominately a Japanese product based on the Japanese market model and sells for an MSRP around $1000 US. The AEM is predominately a USA product based on the USA market model and will reported sell for an MSRP around $1750 US. APEXi expects to make up the $'s difference by receiving PFC tuning revenues, AEM doesn't expect additional revenues from tuning.
Along comes Datalogit in response to the PFC tuning market demand in Australia and the USA where the commercial ECU tuning industry isn't established to meet the demand for ECU tuning. Hence, PFC owners want/need to become tuners and the Datalogit will enable owners to meet this need. I expect that there will still be a demand for ECU tuning services in the USA for FD3S owners near commercial ECU tuners, but no where near what has been established by the Japanese model.
Finally, whether or not the Datalogit is "inferior" to Power Excel and whether or not Power Excel has hidden feature capabilities that Datalogit cannot access as XSPOWER alleged in his post will be determined by Datalogit users after it is released in February. User posts on the results of using Datalogit will be all over the Forum so interested parties will be able to make up their minds based on actual user reports and not presumptive allegations such as those by XSPOWER.
Now we have an explanation why there is little or no PFC customer support from APEXi. APEXi marketed the PFC based on a business model that prevails in Japan where owners of the PFC expect to go to a commercial ECU tuner and pay for tuning services. APEXi makes money off the tuning services in addition to the selling cost of the PFC itself. This explains how APEXi establishes their MSRP for the PFC at a price to attract buyers because they expect to get additional revenues (maybe more than the purchase price of the PFC itself) from the PFC tuning. Apparently not many Japanese FD3S owners are interested in doing the ECU tuning themselves. I don't know anything about the car tuning business in Japan, but I expect that commercial ECU tuners with Power Excel are widespread in Japan, the tuning business is flourishing, and therefore APEXi's business model works very well in Japan. Consequently, APEXi does not provide PFC tuning support to PFC owners because they get revenues for PFC tuning from commercial tuners.
However, it appears that the USA (and also the Aussie) market is substantially different than the Japanese market. In the USA market many (maybe most) FD3S owners want to be able to do the tuning themselves and not go to commercial tuners. Furthermore, there is not a widespread ECU tuning industry in the USA comparable to the Japan tuning industry to support a tuning revenue based business model. Therefore, APEXi's business model works in Japan but not in the USA. I think that the fact that only XSPOWER has Power Excel reflects the state of the ECU tuning industry in the USA.
It seems to me that further evidence of the validity of the above explanation lies in the difference in the MSRP pricing strategies of the PFC versus the AEM. The PFC is predominately a Japanese product based on the Japanese market model and sells for an MSRP around $1000 US. The AEM is predominately a USA product based on the USA market model and will reported sell for an MSRP around $1750 US. APEXi expects to make up the $'s difference by receiving PFC tuning revenues, AEM doesn't expect additional revenues from tuning.
Along comes Datalogit in response to the PFC tuning market demand in Australia and the USA where the commercial ECU tuning industry isn't established to meet the demand for ECU tuning. Hence, PFC owners want/need to become tuners and the Datalogit will enable owners to meet this need. I expect that there will still be a demand for ECU tuning services in the USA for FD3S owners near commercial ECU tuners, but no where near what has been established by the Japanese model.
Finally, whether or not the Datalogit is "inferior" to Power Excel and whether or not Power Excel has hidden feature capabilities that Datalogit cannot access as XSPOWER alleged in his post will be determined by Datalogit users after it is released in February. User posts on the results of using Datalogit will be all over the Forum so interested parties will be able to make up their minds based on actual user reports and not presumptive allegations such as those by XSPOWER.
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