rxspeed87

from what I have been hearing there is someone around me who is putting a supra motor in his FC


can't wait to see how that thing runs

BlackRx7

Okay well I have never once seen this v6 Turbo monster you guys are talking about so I wasn't atually saying that specific motor was crap, I was mearly speculating the crapiness of the piston motor, most of the time I see something that says v6 and I think piece of crap right away, how many domestic v6's are worth a damn, not many......... SHO's and these GNXs are the only one I'm fimilar with, If I am mistaken correct me, oh your going to do that anyway............

rico05

Well, I would NEVER do it, but hey if it works, mo powa to ya man. As for a 2JZ-GTE swap.......



I better not type the things going through my head that I would like to do to whoever is doing that cuz not only will I get kicked off the forum, but I will probally get thrown in jail for threats of serious bodily harm.....

rxspeed87

"you should be banished form this forum if you wanna replace a a bad *** 13bt with a V6 Turbo Gm piece of ****?@!@?"

sounds close enough to saying that specific one was crap

and if you don't really know much about the motor.... bit of advice don't say anything about it


also if you know about the motor and don't care for it either keep comments to your self or use a little more tact on how you put the motor down to keep the mods happy



but yeah a stock GN is something to give respect to. I have seen one wisper quite run a 12.3. the wind comming off the car was making more noise then the motor.. I couldn't even hear the motor. and the car is something like 3400-3800lbs

just think of that motor in a 2700lb car

gnx7

iTrader: (10)

REXRYDER-

I'm in the Sunset district 1 block from Ocean Beach.

email me privately if you want to check out the car one day. gnx7@hotmail.com

The Great Highway makes for a great late night tuning strip. Not to mention a fun place to dust the local Honda/Acura hotrodders and make them go . and they cry to themselves.... my car is turbo'd and has all the mods to 13's and beat a Vette?!?! WTF just happened?

GNX7

ka8legend

yum yum, let's hear some lynching. I see quite a bit of vipers and 911TT & modenas floating along sunset and presidio. Gotta represent & show'em whatzup!

SoloIIdrift

While I respect the Buick motor, my only question is can you have a manual trans that can handle this power? Can you have the 6 speed bolt up? Otherwise it's pretty much for drag racing....which isn't my fav

NZConvertible

I don't really care what engine you put in, but I would like to point out that the problems you've mentioned here have nothing to do with the 13BT, they are caused by poor modification and tuning. That's not a flame, just a fact. Any engine can suffer from fuel starvation and detonation, and I don't understand the maintainence comment.

T2monster

NZconvertible- i had the last one die from an oil cooler line explosion (freak accident; braided stainless hoses from RB and one had a weak spot, according to RB's analysis), and the first motor (since I bought the car; car has had 3! before me) died from high mileage (low compression both rotors).

I'm not knocking the 13bt (still have a 13bt/1st gen drag project in production for a friend) by any stretch of the imagination, but i want the torquey GN drivetrain in the road hugging-make the tires tear up asphalt chunks-hard cornering FC turbo body, and with some basic suspension upgrades like GNX7, it can still be a canyon carver.

Unfortunately, no GM manual trans, save the T56, can withstand 600hp range. Back to the slushbox until a better solution arrives.

Rest easy, friend; this swap will not take place until the current J-spec gives up the ghost, and right now she's got super healthy vital signs!

'87 TII
J-spec
'90 Turbo
twin 12" electric fans
DIY FCD
Autometer guage complement
3in. single driver exit exh.
GT-X wing
'90 Ground Fx
Accel ignition components
'vert wheels
manual door swap (saved weight!)
aluminum TII hood
Twin Bosch LT1 fuel pumps
Redline throughout
6-puck RB clutch

Felix Wankel

Not all GM engines use the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Chevy has their own ("Corporate" engines=Chevy), and Buick, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac all share a different bolt pattern.

I've read about GN guys putting manuals in their cars, and as a result the car is slower.

TonyTurboII

How much are you looking at to pick up a GN engine?

BlackRx7

okay well I'm sorry I never see people talking about swaping there engine with a v6 in the 2nd gen section of the RX-7 forum, I guess whatever foalts your boat, and i'm sorry if I discouraged you and your project T2monster, if you can make a v6 turbo go faster than a 13bt more power to ya, I was just kinda thrown off by the subject, (please don't ban me from the forum please@!@!)

DC350

Yo- how much did the Buick v6 conversion cost you. I'm not really partial into putting x amount of money into the rotary

MisRed

A hem! I completed ALL the work myself. Had some help from friends, borrowed some tools but this Frankenstein creation was brought to life by me. If there is anything you need to know about the swap, I can help. From wiring, to Power Steering, Tach recalibration, driveshaft, or gauge hookup in the dash. Most of that stuff is covered on the www.MisRed.com site. Lot's of reading and a ton of pictures in the 'Photos' section.

It's funny to see the rotary crowds reactions when someone brings up the whole motor swap issue. People often get edgy and flame when they don't quite understand something. Then to stay in the conversation, they bark insults to keep it going.

What people don't understand is the HP and TORQUE capabilities of a Buick V6 Turbo. The same stock motor that is in MISRED pushed my 3800# Grand Natinal to 11.92ET.. on the STOCK TURBO. This worked out to be about 440HP @ 600FT LBS of Torque.

The main difference here is a 440HP rotary would be making 300FT LBS of Torque and in my OPINION wouldn't be as reliable. Say what you want, but like GNX7 offered... If anyone is in the Orlando area I would be more than happy to give joy rides, maybe even at the track. Please, bring a change of shorts.

It's important to note, I am not trying to convert anyone, I am just stating some facts that maybe people can understand better and not get so uptight about these swaps. We are guys that LIKE the RX-7, but have felt there is much to be desired with the Rotary motor.

VetteKiller

personally, I rather get the Firebird Anniversary edition that came with that same engine and the WS6 package

MisRed

The 1989 Turbo Trans Am is a nice car, only because of the motor. Without it, it would be just another GTA...

If you can believe it, the 89 TTA is only about 150# lighter than the Buick Grand National. I have personal experience weighing my full weight Buick on the same scale as a buddy with a TTA.. I wrote the figures down and it was 150# lighter. This was a race day.. trunks empty, same amount of gas.

For all out drag racing purposes AND a nimble car, the RX-7 swap is hard to beat.. Right now MisRed is 2900# without driver. This is an unstripped car, A/C , Sunroof, Heavy T2 Wheels.. all the carpet ect..

To put things in perspective, the Buick weighs 3600# empty with no driver. Not to mention it has the aerodynamics of a brick!

T2monster

Misred, is there ANY way you can give me an idea on what i'm facing putting a hot air motor in instead of your IC'd motor( hot air motors sat the turbo above the pass. manifold instead of up front)? Also, how hard was the wiring? What exactly was the wiring (i'm assuming it to be similar to LT1 swaps i.e. feed the ecu and harness power and it will live, with some other stuff of course)? Hood clearance for my turbo hood is greater (a/b 1-2in. in the scoop area) than the SE hood you used, so instead of moving the rack and pinion, can i just sit the motor up higher? Any help would be appreciated.

Sam Losew
ASE tech
Davenport Autopark
Rocky Mount, NC

Technician
Rx7 Shop

gxlbiscuit

a turbo buick engine would KILL EVERYTHING out there. the torque on those is twisted. i like the idea but im a rotary punk. i could just see one evil gnx-7 coming out of the that.

MisRed

Not sure you want to sit the motor up higher, as there are other things that may interfere. Alternator would rub.

Moving the power steering rack forward 2 " is no big deal. It's just part of the equation of doing the whole swap correctly. The motor needs to go forward some for downpipe clearance, and needs to sit low enough for hood clearance. Sure, you can fit a hot air motor in there without modifying much, but you'll run into problems like I did and it was frusterating. Hood clearance, downpipe clearance (I guess you could cave the firewall in), coil pack clearance and the speedo cable will be jammed right into the back of the drivers side valve cover. Not to mention things will be very hard to work on, because the heads will almost be hitting the firewall.

I trial fit my motor 8 to 10 times before I got it right. It's in the perfect spot, and if I ever build another one I would do it exactly the same. I have received a few requests to sell a modified K-member. One that you would bolt right into the Mazda and plop the V6 in place. Next time my motor comes out (which is very soon), I will make a jig of my K-member. Then I will be able to duplicate it without taking my car down.

The only advantage of using the Hot air motor would be to save some funds. I bet a hot air motor (this is referring to a pre-86 Buick Grand National Motor, non-intercooled, not as nice) could be purchased for under $1000. In my eyes, I would never use one, just because the HP potential is a lot less without the intercooler. Just plumbing an IC up isn't the solution either, as the block has no drainback for the turbo, the MAF is different, there is no AIT sensor, it uses a different ECM which will not take a popular '87 chip, and the ECM will not control an electric fan.

To convert a hot air motor to '86 -'87 status will be expensive and trying. You'll need to poke a 1/2" threaded whole in the front of the block for turbo drain, turbo bracket, you'll need different headers, intake, plenum, MAF, A/C brackets, belt tensioner, alternator, crank pulley, power steering pump, plus you will need an '87 wiring harness. This is just stuff I can recall off the top of my head. I am sure there is more and it would end up being more expensive than just starting out with what you want anyway.. an '86-87 motor.

The wiring wasn't hard at all. You need to start out with the '86-'87 wiring harness. This can be had used for $250 or you can buy a brand new one for $500 from www.CaspersElectronics.com. I had a used one, and removed all the stuff I didn't need to clean it up. Mainly the harness plug that interfaces with the Buicks fuse box and the Fuel canister plug (I used a vented gas cap), stuff like that.

About the only thing that the wiring harness needs to connect to on the car is power, ignition power, ground, Tach and fuel pump relay. Everything else is stand alone. I may be forgetting a few things, but I wired up a lot of stuff that the normal swapper isn't going to care about. IE, I even hooked up the "Shift Up Light" in the dash. I have all the wiring documented in this Hanes manual I bought for the Mazda. I wrote stuff down as I went, and I plan on publishing that info on www.MisRed.com when I get it organized.

Hope that helps..

MisRed

It's been tried before, and the car will slow down...
Fact is fact... NO ONE can shift faster then an Automatic trans.

Also you would lose the ability to build boost when staging. In my Buick I have a very simple mechanical trans-brake which locks 1st & reverse gears together. You mash the pedal, the car goes no where. You can launch the car with as much boost as your tires will take. Turbo-lag? What is that? I have friends that launch at 20 psi which will easily yank the Buicks front end off the ground... see:
http://www.grandambition.com/misc/br...1/dscf0193.jpg

I have no experience road racing, but I would imagine an automatic is not preferred. I don't even know of a streetable clutch that would take this much abuse.

gnx7

iTrader: (10)

Mike's website MisRed.com is very detailed and anyone planning on doing the swap can get most of the info there. The other stuff is pretty much common sense like the fabrication of the required intercooler piping, fuel pump/lines etc.

If you are going to do this swap.... start out with the '86-87 intercooled engine. The intake design and header design is much better and as Mike stated the ECU is easily modified with a ton of aftermarket chips available. The '84-85 setup will be just as much work... and produce probably 200hp less when fully modified like the '86-87 style GN engine. A heavily modified '84-85 setup will barely hang with a healthy STOCK '86-87 engine. The '86-87 engine is so easy to modify and make power it is ridiculous.

In my conversion I run aftermarket ATR headers ($500 used/$800 new) that give increased downpipe clearance in the firewall area. Mike runs stock GN headers which differ in design and the main reason why he had to move the steering rack. My steering rack is in the stock location with the harmonic balancer about 1/4" in front of the rack. I did massage the firewall a little for clearance... but mainly so the hot 3" downpipe wouldn't melt the paint.

I have a/c and p/s delete as here in NorCal I don't really need it. With 225/16's up front I only notice the steering when parking but when at normal speeds I like the feel much better. With the a/c and p/s delete with a custom alternator mount a friend of MIke's made me... I shaved off around 65lbs from the front end if not more!
I have lighter '89 T2 rims (17lbs vs. 24lbs), full interior, sunroof, aluminum hood, T2 diff/halfshafts, and the abovementioned a/c and p/s delete. I figure my car weighs about 2750lbs without me in it. With lightweight Bogart drag rims and skinnies up front, no passenger seat, rear carpet removed I think it will weigh under 2700lbs.

When Mike puts in his newly built 4.1i GN engine.... it should be insane. If he can hook and get traction he could potentially go 9's@135mph+ and 0-60 in the low 3 second range..... :o!

Automatic as stated will be faster... but not as much fun IMO. After doing my burnout I can hold 10psi of boost at the line with the footbrake and the E-brake fully pulled. MIke uses a transbrake which allows you to hold as much boost as you want. with a 5-10lb boost launch the car launches with a fury and never stops pulling. At about the 990ft mark you realize that you are really cooking! A Tremec TKO costs about $1700 and would need a custom adapter plate for the Buick engine bolt pattern. I don't know of anyone using a T56 behind the GN engine as of yet.

If you must have a manual transmission then run a T56 in your conversion and get an LT1 or LS1 as there are engine/trans mount kits out and make the swap a piece of cake. It will cost $3-4K to convert a GN engine to manual with all the custom parts you would need. I called Advanced Adapters about this 9-12 months ago and they said they couldn't make a T56 work with the GN engine unless you have some $$$'s! Plus you lose boost every time you shift with the manual.

I have little patience for wiring and used the Casper's wiring harness. It is brand new, you can custom add/delete items, and everything is labeled. 3 hour install vs. 3 weeks to figure out the stock wiring harness and refer to the manuals (at least for me it would be).

Later,

GNX7

Dyre

Just on a side note, pushrod V-6 and V-8 swaps make much sense from a handling and weight distribution standpoint that DOHC and inline engine swaps.

The Supra engine is a VERY bad swap canidate. It moves ALOT of weight forward of the steering rack, and very high in the engine bay. This is about the last thing you want to do to a car designed to carve some cannons up.

If your going to be pulling the rotary for a piston engine (not my bag baby, but IF your going to do it no-one can stop you ) at least do so with some logic. Pushrod V* engines make the most sense. Lots of weight down low, and relativly short engines. Engines like the GN V6, LT1, LS1, chevy SB, and the ford 302/351W engines all would make very good swap canidates.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

Quote by MisRed
"Fact is fact... NO ONE can shift faster then an Automatic trans."

Obviously never driven a car with a dog-ring or sequential tranny.

By the way Mark, do you have a friggin passenger seat in your car so I can finally get a ride?

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

To be clear, a dog-ring or sequential will not shift faster, but as fast and still maintain a manual setup which is better for road (real) racing.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

I did a little searching on the links provided but can't seem to find this. What would you say the average lifespan of a GN engine is? I don't know much about them, but I've heard their lifespan is shorter than an average engine. That's to be expected given the power output, just like a TII doesn't last as long as an N/A. (I ask out of interest, not out of comparison with any rotary)