2jz swap
08-16-05, 03:24 PM
#51
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im going to have to go with Eric on this one...
there seems to be somewhat of an LSx engine "fanboy" trend going on as everyone apparently thinks that its the only engine or best engine to swap into the RX7... but its not. the LSx engines are not superior to the JZ engines.
the LSx engiens cant rev to 8500 in stock form
the LSx engines are specified by GM to have a life expectancy of 70k miles
the LSx engines dont hold 900rwhp on stock internals
JZ series engines do everything that an LSx does, only better, longer, harder and more efficiently.
you dont need a stroker kit on a JZ to make alot of power. you dont even need a big single to make it fast. a Mid-size single on a JZ powered rx7 will put it in single digits with proper driving and sufficient traction. you can still drive it on the street in comfort, pumpgas, w/o the use of nitrous, and hear yourself think or carry on a conversation w/ a passenger or on the cell phone.
but, hey, buy an LSx engine... it just means more JZ's for the people who know how to use them
there seems to be somewhat of an LSx engine "fanboy" trend going on as everyone apparently thinks that its the only engine or best engine to swap into the RX7... but its not. the LSx engines are not superior to the JZ engines.
the LSx engiens cant rev to 8500 in stock form
the LSx engines are specified by GM to have a life expectancy of 70k miles
the LSx engines dont hold 900rwhp on stock internals
JZ series engines do everything that an LSx does, only better, longer, harder and more efficiently.
you dont need a stroker kit on a JZ to make alot of power. you dont even need a big single to make it fast. a Mid-size single on a JZ powered rx7 will put it in single digits with proper driving and sufficient traction. you can still drive it on the street in comfort, pumpgas, w/o the use of nitrous, and hear yourself think or carry on a conversation w/ a passenger or on the cell phone.
but, hey, buy an LSx engine... it just means more JZ's for the people who know how to use them
08-16-05, 05:20 PM
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2JZ is heavier, longer, and has a lot less displacement. At the same power level with two seperate engines, the one having the bigger displacement will be more reliable and have more torque. Take any turbo off a supra and put that on a LS1 (with the necessary mods if its not turbocharged yet, just like a 2JZ-GE instead of a -GTE), and you'll see what I mean.
BTW, Im not comparing a 4 digit big cube cammed out dragster motor vs a 4 digit 2jz, the 1000 hp 2jz would probably have the same or a mild cam on it for the turbo while a NA 1000 hp motor would need a slip-stall converter. But then again the 1000 hp Supra wouldnt spool up until 4-5K rpms, would it? A 1000 hp turbo on a LS1 would spool a lot faster having almost twice the displacement, and you can get a LS1 up to 6 liters relatively easy. Im comparing a turbo LS1 to a turbo 2jz, not a huge NA high rev monster to a 2JZ with a turbo, thats not exactly apples to apples, now is it?
But anyway, unless hes building for MEGAPOWER, he isnt going to need any of that stuff. LS1 starts out at like 330 to the crank, whereas a 2jz without a turbo is 225 to the crank, 300 to the crank with a turbo. Sure, he can build up from there with more turbos, but I could just as soon turbocharge a LS1. And guess what else? 5.7 > 3.0, if both are turbocharged to the same degree the LS1 would spool faster and have 2.7 liters more displacement for low end until the turbo kicks in. Turbo cams are not very 'wild', in a 2jz or a LSx.
Besides, a "mild" LS1 can hit 400 whp with a cam and long tube headers, with more low end than the 2JZ. When you start getting above that both engines need to spend money, either on turbos and a fuel system, or forced induction, forged internals and a fuel system, and you run into problems with traction and the chassis itself.
Yes, I do agree an all NA LS1 vs a turbo 2JZ would be in the 2Jz's favor, for high end dragracing. But, if youre comparing two turbocharged engines the one with the bigger displacement would be more streetable. While the 2JZ has a strong bottom end stock, its still only 3 liters, and the parts are expensive. 10K for as stroker crank is absolutely batshit insane, whereas I can get a forged stroker for 1K for a LS1. Or just a forged stock-stroke crank for boost for less.
BTW, can a 2JZ's valvetrain handle 8500 rpms in stock form? Does its cam even work that high? JZ series engines are completely different from LSx, dont tell me it would do a better job apples to apples than a LSx, unless youre referring to the necessity of forged internals on a LS1 because it didnt come with them stock for running high boost. Yes, a 2JZG*T*E has the advantage of being a natively turbocharged engine, but other than that, a LS1 is viable.
Plus you can just go buy the mounts from LS1powered on torquecentral, grannys, hinson, or get plans from eyeoutthere on torquecentral, and get a engine/tranny for a few grand. How much is a 2JZ? How expensive would it be to install?
Im not about to **** on the 2JZ, but for a street car why not go with a LSx? How much power is he tryign to make, exactly?
BTW, cowboy bebop - TURBO LS1 to TURBO 2JZ, would be a lot different from a NA LS1 to a TURBO 2JZ-GTE. Also, how much power is that girl trying to make? Even stock a LSx in a rx-7 rips and runs a 11 with traction, 12 on street tires. Why not have torque, driveability and good gas mileave with the T-56?
BTW, Im not comparing a 4 digit big cube cammed out dragster motor vs a 4 digit 2jz, the 1000 hp 2jz would probably have the same or a mild cam on it for the turbo while a NA 1000 hp motor would need a slip-stall converter. But then again the 1000 hp Supra wouldnt spool up until 4-5K rpms, would it? A 1000 hp turbo on a LS1 would spool a lot faster having almost twice the displacement, and you can get a LS1 up to 6 liters relatively easy. Im comparing a turbo LS1 to a turbo 2jz, not a huge NA high rev monster to a 2JZ with a turbo, thats not exactly apples to apples, now is it?
But anyway, unless hes building for MEGAPOWER, he isnt going to need any of that stuff. LS1 starts out at like 330 to the crank, whereas a 2jz without a turbo is 225 to the crank, 300 to the crank with a turbo. Sure, he can build up from there with more turbos, but I could just as soon turbocharge a LS1. And guess what else? 5.7 > 3.0, if both are turbocharged to the same degree the LS1 would spool faster and have 2.7 liters more displacement for low end until the turbo kicks in. Turbo cams are not very 'wild', in a 2jz or a LSx.
Besides, a "mild" LS1 can hit 400 whp with a cam and long tube headers, with more low end than the 2JZ. When you start getting above that both engines need to spend money, either on turbos and a fuel system, or forced induction, forged internals and a fuel system, and you run into problems with traction and the chassis itself.
Yes, I do agree an all NA LS1 vs a turbo 2JZ would be in the 2Jz's favor, for high end dragracing. But, if youre comparing two turbocharged engines the one with the bigger displacement would be more streetable. While the 2JZ has a strong bottom end stock, its still only 3 liters, and the parts are expensive. 10K for as stroker crank is absolutely batshit insane, whereas I can get a forged stroker for 1K for a LS1. Or just a forged stock-stroke crank for boost for less.
BTW, can a 2JZ's valvetrain handle 8500 rpms in stock form? Does its cam even work that high? JZ series engines are completely different from LSx, dont tell me it would do a better job apples to apples than a LSx, unless youre referring to the necessity of forged internals on a LS1 because it didnt come with them stock for running high boost. Yes, a 2JZG*T*E has the advantage of being a natively turbocharged engine, but other than that, a LS1 is viable.
Plus you can just go buy the mounts from LS1powered on torquecentral, grannys, hinson, or get plans from eyeoutthere on torquecentral, and get a engine/tranny for a few grand. How much is a 2JZ? How expensive would it be to install?
Im not about to **** on the 2JZ, but for a street car why not go with a LSx? How much power is he tryign to make, exactly?
BTW, cowboy bebop - TURBO LS1 to TURBO 2JZ, would be a lot different from a NA LS1 to a TURBO 2JZ-GTE. Also, how much power is that girl trying to make? Even stock a LSx in a rx-7 rips and runs a 11 with traction, 12 on street tires. Why not have torque, driveability and good gas mileave with the T-56?
08-16-05, 06:37 PM
#53
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2JZ is heavier, longer, and has a lot less displacement. At the same power level with two seperate engines, the one having the bigger displacement will be more reliable and have more torque.
Yeah, 13B's know all about reliability, right?
Take any turbo off a supra and put that on a LS1 (with the necessary mods if its not turbocharged yet, just like a 2JZ-GE instead of a -GTE), and you'll see what I mean.
A 2JZ-GE long block is INDENTICAL to a turbo GTE, save the oil squirters, which are useless on a built motor anyways, and a cam angle sensor. Otherwise, same 4 digit potential.
An LS1 with necessary mods to be able to hold the power a 2JZ would mean serious fortifications, not just slam a turbo on it and run.
-whereas a 2jz without a turbo is 225 to the crank, 300 to the crank with a turbo.
Some 2JZ-GTEs came stock with as much as 330rwhp, proven and documented.
-but I could just as soon turbocharge a LS1.
for about 4 thousand more than it is to go single on a 2JZ while you're at it, and don't set your HP aspirations too high.
Besides, a "mild" LS1 can hit 400 whp with a cam and long tube headers, with more low end than the 2JZ. When you start getting above that both engines need to spend money, either on turbos and a fuel system, or forced induction, forged internals and a fuel system, and you run into problems with traction and the chassis itself.
How much low end do you really need to putter around town? Plus it's widely known that the 550cc stock injectors on a 2JZ-GTE will take it to 550rwhp, and the internals are no problem. Infact, you'll have to open up the TB before you strengthen internals.
While the 2JZ has a strong bottom end stock, its still only 3 liters, and the parts are expensive. 10K for as stroker crank is absolutely batshit insane, whereas I can get a forged stroker for 1K for a LS1. Or just a forged stock-stroke crank for boost for less.
What's expensive about building a 2JZ besides the stroker kit you continue to reference? Eagle H-beam rods, stock pistons, and Clevitte 77 bearings will make a 1200HP bottom end for under 500 dollars. We don't have upgrades for our cranks unless it's being part of a stroker kit. It's just that damn good.
BTW, can a 2JZ's valvetrain handle 8500 rpms in stock form? Does its cam even work that high?
With a set of springs to stop the potential for valve float, and titanium retainers, the valve train can run to 9500. Without a more aggressive cam, the HP potential will be cut down on the top end of course, but a good set of cams is around 700, so why not drop in a set when the springs and retainers are tossed in. I personally know people that have run the stock valvetrain to just under 10K by accident with no bad side effects.
JZ series engines are completely different from LSx, dont tell me it would do a better job apples to apples than a LSx, unless youre referring to the necessity of forged internals on a LS1 because it didnt come with them stock for running high boost.
So don't tell you that a stock 2JZ engine is stronger and more efficient that an LS1, unless the LS1 has a built bottom end?
Plus you can just go buy the mounts from LS1powered on torquecentral, grannys, hinson, or get plans from eyeoutthere on torquecentral, and get a engine/tranny for a few grand. How much is a 2JZ? How expensive would it be to install?
How much would it be to install? About as much as it would be to weld a tube frame cradle for the motor mounts, and keep the V160 in place. Hey if you want to go cheap, then do that. I'll stick with what I know has the potential to make the car the winner it was supposed to be. Just because every hack kneed shop out there tells you it's better doesn't make it so. The told me my GT47 88mm would be **** on the street, but I've blown away enough LS1 equipped cars while I'm on pump gas to know better.
BTW, cowboy bebop - TURBO LS1 to TURBO 2JZ, would be a lot different from a NA LS1 to a TURBO 2JZ-GTE. Also, how much power is that girl trying to make? Even stock a LSx in a rx-7 rips and runs a 11 with traction, 12 on street tires. Why not have torque, driveability and good gas mileave with the T-56?
HAhahahah...gas milage... funny. That's the last concern someone in this buisness should have. If it's not dumping fuel out of the back, and fouling plugs, then go for it. I still get 22mpg on 1200cc injectors, btw. I keep seeing a TQ arguement, but how much TQ do you need for to run to the weekly meet? When you're running, you rev high, so I'm not seeing much use for low end TQ. Just a rolling tire smoke machine.
Eric
Yeah, 13B's know all about reliability, right?
Take any turbo off a supra and put that on a LS1 (with the necessary mods if its not turbocharged yet, just like a 2JZ-GE instead of a -GTE), and you'll see what I mean.
A 2JZ-GE long block is INDENTICAL to a turbo GTE, save the oil squirters, which are useless on a built motor anyways, and a cam angle sensor. Otherwise, same 4 digit potential.
An LS1 with necessary mods to be able to hold the power a 2JZ would mean serious fortifications, not just slam a turbo on it and run.
-whereas a 2jz without a turbo is 225 to the crank, 300 to the crank with a turbo.
Some 2JZ-GTEs came stock with as much as 330rwhp, proven and documented.
-but I could just as soon turbocharge a LS1.
for about 4 thousand more than it is to go single on a 2JZ while you're at it, and don't set your HP aspirations too high.
Besides, a "mild" LS1 can hit 400 whp with a cam and long tube headers, with more low end than the 2JZ. When you start getting above that both engines need to spend money, either on turbos and a fuel system, or forced induction, forged internals and a fuel system, and you run into problems with traction and the chassis itself.
How much low end do you really need to putter around town? Plus it's widely known that the 550cc stock injectors on a 2JZ-GTE will take it to 550rwhp, and the internals are no problem. Infact, you'll have to open up the TB before you strengthen internals.
While the 2JZ has a strong bottom end stock, its still only 3 liters, and the parts are expensive. 10K for as stroker crank is absolutely batshit insane, whereas I can get a forged stroker for 1K for a LS1. Or just a forged stock-stroke crank for boost for less.
What's expensive about building a 2JZ besides the stroker kit you continue to reference? Eagle H-beam rods, stock pistons, and Clevitte 77 bearings will make a 1200HP bottom end for under 500 dollars. We don't have upgrades for our cranks unless it's being part of a stroker kit. It's just that damn good.
BTW, can a 2JZ's valvetrain handle 8500 rpms in stock form? Does its cam even work that high?
With a set of springs to stop the potential for valve float, and titanium retainers, the valve train can run to 9500. Without a more aggressive cam, the HP potential will be cut down on the top end of course, but a good set of cams is around 700, so why not drop in a set when the springs and retainers are tossed in. I personally know people that have run the stock valvetrain to just under 10K by accident with no bad side effects.
JZ series engines are completely different from LSx, dont tell me it would do a better job apples to apples than a LSx, unless youre referring to the necessity of forged internals on a LS1 because it didnt come with them stock for running high boost.
So don't tell you that a stock 2JZ engine is stronger and more efficient that an LS1, unless the LS1 has a built bottom end?
Plus you can just go buy the mounts from LS1powered on torquecentral, grannys, hinson, or get plans from eyeoutthere on torquecentral, and get a engine/tranny for a few grand. How much is a 2JZ? How expensive would it be to install?
How much would it be to install? About as much as it would be to weld a tube frame cradle for the motor mounts, and keep the V160 in place. Hey if you want to go cheap, then do that. I'll stick with what I know has the potential to make the car the winner it was supposed to be. Just because every hack kneed shop out there tells you it's better doesn't make it so. The told me my GT47 88mm would be **** on the street, but I've blown away enough LS1 equipped cars while I'm on pump gas to know better.
BTW, cowboy bebop - TURBO LS1 to TURBO 2JZ, would be a lot different from a NA LS1 to a TURBO 2JZ-GTE. Also, how much power is that girl trying to make? Even stock a LSx in a rx-7 rips and runs a 11 with traction, 12 on street tires. Why not have torque, driveability and good gas mileave with the T-56?
HAhahahah...gas milage... funny. That's the last concern someone in this buisness should have. If it's not dumping fuel out of the back, and fouling plugs, then go for it. I still get 22mpg on 1200cc injectors, btw. I keep seeing a TQ arguement, but how much TQ do you need for to run to the weekly meet? When you're running, you rev high, so I'm not seeing much use for low end TQ. Just a rolling tire smoke machine.
Eric
08-16-05, 07:04 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by Nihilanthic
10K for as stroker crank is absolutely batshit insane, whereas I can get a forged stroker for 1K for a LS1.
Where can I get a forged LS1 stroker for $1K? 
You can barely get a crankshaft for that, much less the rest of the **** you'd need. More like $4K for a rotating assembly, plus machining costs. Or you can order up a 370 (iron and heavy, unless you go LS2), 383, 395, or 402. Those will all cost several thousand. Anything resleeved is going to step into that $10K plus range that you seem to have a distaste for.
Plus, you'd be a fool to stroke the engine and not work the heads, so throw that cost on the pile too ($1k-$2k). You wouldn't run a stroker through stock exhaust manifolds either, so throw in the cost of some long tubes ($600-$800).
Or just a forged stock-stroke crank for boost for less.
Don't get me wrong, I prefer my LS1 to the 2JZ, and I agree with most of your reasoning here. I just happen to think that you're in La-La land when it comes down to how much this LS1 **** costs.
08-16-05, 07:17 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by cowboy bebop
An LS1 with necessary mods to be able to hold the power a 2JZ would mean serious fortifications, not just slam a turbo on it and run.
Matt Harlan made ~1200-1400rwhp (low 8s@170 timeslip in a 3500# car) with his TT F-body on the stock crank, no girdle, etc. Just forged rods, ARP bolts and studs. On 6L truck heads even. There's plenty of potential there. More than you're giving it credit for anyways.
for about 4 thousand more than it is to go single on a 2JZ while you're at it, and don't set your HP aspirations too high.
What's expensive about building a 2JZ besides the stroker kit you continue to reference? Eagle H-beam rods, stock pistons, and Clevitte 77 bearings will make a 1200HP bottom end for under 500 dollars. We don't have upgrades for our cranks unless it's being part of a stroker kit. It's just that damn good.
The pistons (specifically the ringlands) are the biggest hold back for a boosted motor. The rod bolts, stock pushrods, and springs are prett suspect over stock power levels too.
With a set of springs to stop the potential for valve float, and titanium retainers, the valve train can run to 9500. Without a more aggressive cam, the HP potential will be cut down on the top end of course, but a good set of cams is around 700, so why not drop in a set when the springs and retainers are tossed in. I personally know people that have run the stock valvetrain to just under 10K by accident with no bad side effects.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366003
352 CID LS1 based motor. Running aabout 36psi. 8900 rpm redline. LS1s can turn high revs too.
Just goes to show that anything can be fixed with the right amount of cash thrown at it.
So don't tell you that a stock 2JZ engine is stronger and more efficient that an LS1, unless the LS1 has a built bottom end?
[B]HAhahahah...gas milage... funny.
Agreed. Anyone thinking about making 4 digit power isn't concerned about mileage, or fuel costs (as I'll assume most will be doing it on c16 or equivalent) Anyhow, whatever floats your boat. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about motor preference. There are plenty of idiots that are blowing both up.
Now if only we could get you to use the quote function properly.
08-16-05, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cowboy bebop
2JZ is heavier, longer, and has a lot less displacement. At the same power level with two seperate engines, the one having the bigger displacement will be more reliable and have more torque.
Yeah, 13B's know all about reliability, right?
Take any turbo off a supra and put that on a LS1 (with the necessary mods if its not turbocharged yet, just like a 2JZ-GE instead of a -GTE), and you'll see what I mean.
A 2JZ-GE long block is INDENTICAL to a turbo GTE, save the oil squirters, which are useless on a built motor anyways, and a cam angle sensor. Otherwise, same 4 digit potential.
An LS1 with necessary mods to be able to hold the power a 2JZ would mean serious fortifications, not just slam a turbo on it and run.
-whereas a 2jz without a turbo is 225 to the crank, 300 to the crank with a turbo.
Some 2JZ-GTEs came stock with as much as 330rwhp, proven and documented.
-but I could just as soon turbocharge a LS1.
for about 4 thousand more than it is to go single on a 2JZ while you're at it, and don't set your HP aspirations too high.
Besides, a "mild" LS1 can hit 400 whp with a cam and long tube headers, with more low end than the 2JZ. When you start getting above that both engines need to spend money, either on turbos and a fuel system, or forced induction, forged internals and a fuel system, and you run into problems with traction and the chassis itself.
How much low end do you really need to putter around town? Plus it's widely known that the 550cc stock injectors on a 2JZ-GTE will take it to 550rwhp, and the internals are no problem. Infact, you'll have to open up the TB before you strengthen internals.
While the 2JZ has a strong bottom end stock, its still only 3 liters, and the parts are expensive. 10K for as stroker crank is absolutely batshit insane, whereas I can get a forged stroker for 1K for a LS1. Or just a forged stock-stroke crank for boost for less.
What's expensive about building a 2JZ besides the stroker kit you continue to reference? Eagle H-beam rods, stock pistons, and Clevitte 77 bearings will make a 1200HP bottom end for under 500 dollars. We don't have upgrades for our cranks unless it's being part of a stroker kit. It's just that damn good.
BTW, can a 2JZ's valvetrain handle 8500 rpms in stock form? Does its cam even work that high?
With a set of springs to stop the potential for valve float, and titanium retainers, the valve train can run to 9500. Without a more aggressive cam, the HP potential will be cut down on the top end of course, but a good set of cams is around 700, so why not drop in a set when the springs and retainers are tossed in. I personally know people that have run the stock valvetrain to just under 10K by accident with no bad side effects.
JZ series engines are completely different from LSx, dont tell me it would do a better job apples to apples than a LSx, unless youre referring to the necessity of forged internals on a LS1 because it didnt come with them stock for running high boost.
So don't tell you that a stock 2JZ engine is stronger and more efficient that an LS1, unless the LS1 has a built bottom end?
Plus you can just go buy the mounts from LS1powered on torquecentral, grannys, hinson, or get plans from eyeoutthere on torquecentral, and get a engine/tranny for a few grand. How much is a 2JZ? How expensive would it be to install?
How much would it be to install? About as much as it would be to weld a tube frame cradle for the motor mounts, and keep the V160 in place. Hey if you want to go cheap, then do that. I'll stick with what I know has the potential to make the car the winner it was supposed to be. Just because every hack kneed shop out there tells you it's better doesn't make it so. The told me my GT47 88mm would be **** on the street, but I've blown away enough LS1 equipped cars while I'm on pump gas to know better.
BTW, cowboy bebop - TURBO LS1 to TURBO 2JZ, would be a lot different from a NA LS1 to a TURBO 2JZ-GTE. Also, how much power is that girl trying to make? Even stock a LSx in a rx-7 rips and runs a 11 with traction, 12 on street tires. Why not have torque, driveability and good gas mileave with the T-56?
HAhahahah...gas milage... funny. That's the last concern someone in this buisness should have. If it's not dumping fuel out of the back, and fouling plugs, then go for it. I still get 22mpg on 1200cc injectors, btw. I keep seeing a TQ arguement, but how much TQ do you need for to run to the weekly meet? When you're running, you rev high, so I'm not seeing much use for low end TQ. Just a rolling tire smoke machine.
Eric
Yeah, 13B's know all about reliability, right?
Take any turbo off a supra and put that on a LS1 (with the necessary mods if its not turbocharged yet, just like a 2JZ-GE instead of a -GTE), and you'll see what I mean.
A 2JZ-GE long block is INDENTICAL to a turbo GTE, save the oil squirters, which are useless on a built motor anyways, and a cam angle sensor. Otherwise, same 4 digit potential.
An LS1 with necessary mods to be able to hold the power a 2JZ would mean serious fortifications, not just slam a turbo on it and run.
-whereas a 2jz without a turbo is 225 to the crank, 300 to the crank with a turbo.
Some 2JZ-GTEs came stock with as much as 330rwhp, proven and documented.
-but I could just as soon turbocharge a LS1.
for about 4 thousand more than it is to go single on a 2JZ while you're at it, and don't set your HP aspirations too high.
Besides, a "mild" LS1 can hit 400 whp with a cam and long tube headers, with more low end than the 2JZ. When you start getting above that both engines need to spend money, either on turbos and a fuel system, or forced induction, forged internals and a fuel system, and you run into problems with traction and the chassis itself.
How much low end do you really need to putter around town? Plus it's widely known that the 550cc stock injectors on a 2JZ-GTE will take it to 550rwhp, and the internals are no problem. Infact, you'll have to open up the TB before you strengthen internals.
While the 2JZ has a strong bottom end stock, its still only 3 liters, and the parts are expensive. 10K for as stroker crank is absolutely batshit insane, whereas I can get a forged stroker for 1K for a LS1. Or just a forged stock-stroke crank for boost for less.
What's expensive about building a 2JZ besides the stroker kit you continue to reference? Eagle H-beam rods, stock pistons, and Clevitte 77 bearings will make a 1200HP bottom end for under 500 dollars. We don't have upgrades for our cranks unless it's being part of a stroker kit. It's just that damn good.
BTW, can a 2JZ's valvetrain handle 8500 rpms in stock form? Does its cam even work that high?
With a set of springs to stop the potential for valve float, and titanium retainers, the valve train can run to 9500. Without a more aggressive cam, the HP potential will be cut down on the top end of course, but a good set of cams is around 700, so why not drop in a set when the springs and retainers are tossed in. I personally know people that have run the stock valvetrain to just under 10K by accident with no bad side effects.
JZ series engines are completely different from LSx, dont tell me it would do a better job apples to apples than a LSx, unless youre referring to the necessity of forged internals on a LS1 because it didnt come with them stock for running high boost.
So don't tell you that a stock 2JZ engine is stronger and more efficient that an LS1, unless the LS1 has a built bottom end?
Plus you can just go buy the mounts from LS1powered on torquecentral, grannys, hinson, or get plans from eyeoutthere on torquecentral, and get a engine/tranny for a few grand. How much is a 2JZ? How expensive would it be to install?
How much would it be to install? About as much as it would be to weld a tube frame cradle for the motor mounts, and keep the V160 in place. Hey if you want to go cheap, then do that. I'll stick with what I know has the potential to make the car the winner it was supposed to be. Just because every hack kneed shop out there tells you it's better doesn't make it so. The told me my GT47 88mm would be **** on the street, but I've blown away enough LS1 equipped cars while I'm on pump gas to know better.
BTW, cowboy bebop - TURBO LS1 to TURBO 2JZ, would be a lot different from a NA LS1 to a TURBO 2JZ-GTE. Also, how much power is that girl trying to make? Even stock a LSx in a rx-7 rips and runs a 11 with traction, 12 on street tires. Why not have torque, driveability and good gas mileave with the T-56?
HAhahahah...gas milage... funny. That's the last concern someone in this buisness should have. If it's not dumping fuel out of the back, and fouling plugs, then go for it. I still get 22mpg on 1200cc injectors, btw. I keep seeing a TQ arguement, but how much TQ do you need for to run to the weekly meet? When you're running, you rev high, so I'm not seeing much use for low end TQ. Just a rolling tire smoke machine.
Eric
and...the 2jz sounds about a billion times better than an ls1
08-16-05, 07:25 PM
#57
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I must have seen some ridiculously low prices or I was JUST looking at cranks, not the whole kit. If so, my bad, I am in lala land or I just found the vortex of low prices 
BTW, I checked. 2JZ is like $2500 w/ an auto tranny. That IS cheap! But, its a good thing you dont need to touch much under the valve covers because I checked prices and **** is expensive. 10K for a stroker kit is bogus, period. Turbos and turbokits arent cheap (for any engine, to be fair...), plus a set of cams for a 2JZ is like... $640. WTF? Ive seen v8 cams for ~$100. **** seems to just be more expensive when dealing with imports.
If you just want to keep the enigne mostly stock except for, say, a head gasket and put on a giant turbo and deal with the lag of trying to spool something that big with only 3 liters, its a good deal. But my question is how much power are you trying to get? 400 whp with a LSX is a matter of a cam and long tube headers. 2JZ-GTE is about 250-260 WHP stock, right? How much would a turbo kit cost to get that high? Pricing **** out would make this less confusing and scatterbrained, which I did a damn good job of doing to this debate
As far as a 1000 hp, no matter WHAT the engine is youre gonna spend a ton of dough.
BTW, do you NEED to upgrade your heads? I see 2JZ's doing this insane turbo **** on stock heads/cams all the damn time... if they dont need it why would a LSX? Forged internals I can get but not heads.. dont they flow enough?
BTW, I checked. 2JZ is like $2500 w/ an auto tranny. That IS cheap! But, its a good thing you dont need to touch much under the valve covers because I checked prices and **** is expensive. 10K for a stroker kit is bogus, period. Turbos and turbokits arent cheap (for any engine, to be fair...), plus a set of cams for a 2JZ is like... $640. WTF? Ive seen v8 cams for ~$100. **** seems to just be more expensive when dealing with imports.
If you just want to keep the enigne mostly stock except for, say, a head gasket and put on a giant turbo and deal with the lag of trying to spool something that big with only 3 liters, its a good deal. But my question is how much power are you trying to get? 400 whp with a LSX is a matter of a cam and long tube headers. 2JZ-GTE is about 250-260 WHP stock, right? How much would a turbo kit cost to get that high? Pricing **** out would make this less confusing and scatterbrained, which I did a damn good job of doing to this debate
As far as a 1000 hp, no matter WHAT the engine is youre gonna spend a ton of dough.
BTW, do you NEED to upgrade your heads? I see 2JZ's doing this insane turbo **** on stock heads/cams all the damn time... if they dont need it why would a LSX? Forged internals I can get but not heads.. dont they flow enough?
08-16-05, 07:35 PM
#58
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Ok, so its the crank isnt the weak thing, its the pistons and rods. No biggie - isnt that better? BTW, big turbos cost a lot no matter what engine its put on, lol.
BTW, why upgrade the heads with a turbo? Supras dont need to, and check out their headflow:
Head flow stock tt heads
CFM @ 28"
intake exhaust
.100" 81 65
.200" 155 122
.300" 199 145
.400" 207 151
.500" 215 152
Gen-III Head 0.100 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.600 0.650
LS1 Intake 63.5 137.8 196.0 214.5 223.5 233.3 237.2
LS1 Exhaust 52.9 97.8 129.7 158.0 169.9 180.0 183.2
STOCK head flow, btw. o.o NICE.
BTW, why upgrade the heads with a turbo? Supras dont need to, and check out their headflow:
Head flow stock tt heads
CFM @ 28"
intake exhaust
.100" 81 65
.200" 155 122
.300" 199 145
.400" 207 151
.500" 215 152
Gen-III Head 0.100 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.600 0.650
LS1 Intake 63.5 137.8 196.0 214.5 223.5 233.3 237.2
LS1 Exhaust 52.9 97.8 129.7 158.0 169.9 180.0 183.2
STOCK head flow, btw. o.o NICE.
Last edited by Nihilanthic; 08-16-05 at 07:41 PM. Reason: added LS1 head flow
08-16-05, 08:39 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by Nihilanthic
I must have seen some ridiculously low prices or I was JUST looking at cranks, not the whole kit. If so, my bad, I am in lala land or I just found the vortex of low prices
BTW, do you NEED to upgrade your heads?
If so, no, I don't need to upgrade my heads at this point. I'll "need" to when I put my 383 together.
I see 2JZ's doing this insane turbo **** on stock heads/cams all the damn time... if they dont need it why would a LSX? Forged internals I can get but not heads.. dont they flow enough?
08-16-05, 08:48 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by Nihilanthic
Ok, so its the crank isnt the weak thing, its the pistons and rods. No biggie - isnt that better?
BTW, big turbos cost a lot no matter what engine its put on, lol.
It was only $1400. It's the other supporting crap that $400-$600 you to death. AN fittings and stainless line starts to add up too. My bottom line is high because I didn't screw around or cut any corners (other than not changing the compression on the motor, which I'll get to next year). I went standalone (BS3), upgraded the fuel system (dual walbros, billet rails, 65# injectors), 48mm Progate, 50mm TiAl BOV, E-boost 2 EBC, etc.
BTW, why upgrade the heads with a turbo? Supras dont need to, and check out their headflow:
Head flow stock tt heads
CFM @ 28"
intake exhaust
.100" 81 65
.200" 155 122
.300" 199 145
.400" 207 151
.500" 215 152
Gen-III Head 0.100 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.600 0.650
LS1 Intake 63.5 137.8 196.0 214.5 223.5 233.3 237.2
LS1 Exhaust 52.9 97.8 129.7 158.0 169.9 180.0 183.2
STOCK head flow, btw. o.o NICE.
Head flow stock tt heads
CFM @ 28"
intake exhaust
.100" 81 65
.200" 155 122
.300" 199 145
.400" 207 151
.500" 215 152
Gen-III Head 0.100 0.200 0.300 0.400 0.500 0.600 0.650
LS1 Intake 63.5 137.8 196.0 214.5 223.5 233.3 237.2
LS1 Exhaust 52.9 97.8 129.7 158.0 169.9 180.0 183.2
STOCK head flow, btw. o.o NICE.
With a SC or an NA stroker setup you'd want to run heads, long tubes, and a more agressive cam.
08-16-05, 08:57 PM
#61
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Wingsfan - obviously not, the LSX heads flow more above 3" of lift. Not only that but its x8, not x6, so it has even more airflow potential. But yeah, if I was going for N/A Id get it sleeved and stroked to 427 or 455 and build off that... and good god you can get some serious power out of that, but thats expensive as hell.
BTW.. it IS true that 4v heads outflow 2v heads at low lifts! Go fig.
BTW.. it IS true that 4v heads outflow 2v heads at low lifts! Go fig.
08-16-05, 09:05 PM
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Fortunately for the 2JZ community, the days of the 6000 turbo kit are over. You can piece a kit together for well under 2000 including the Garrett turbo of your choice.
Eric
Eric
08-16-05, 10:03 PM
#63
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Hrn... WG, turbo, piping, computer, injectors, how much would that run you for a LSx?
Im not exactly planning on doing it, LS1 FCs run 11s with slicks, thats PLENTY for me lmao.
Im not exactly planning on doing it, LS1 FCs run 11s with slicks, thats PLENTY for me lmao.
08-18-05, 10:14 PM
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Anyone looking for a 2jz gte??? i have one for sale. email me at GTpoweredCORRADo@aol.com i was going to do the 2jz in my rx7 but i am putting it all on hold for a while now..
Greg
Greg
08-20-05, 07:39 AM
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Maybe it's just my hot-rodders common sense, but why would anyone want a smaller ( displacement ) engine that has less power and is heavier and has no easily available kit to install it in an Rx7...
It's a ricer fanboi dream, so they too can share the 'forged by the hand of god' attitude so often seen in supra owners and Rotards.
**** the 2Jz GTE. Sure, you can build a Dyno queen that turns the rollers to 1k, but I'm sure any FI LSx based engine would be more drivable with similar power.
More like, more drivable at any level of power.
Simply put:
1K HP 2KZ GTE = Expensive Garage Art
1K HP LSx FI = 'expensive' driver
It's a ricer fanboi dream, so they too can share the 'forged by the hand of god' attitude so often seen in supra owners and Rotards.
**** the 2Jz GTE. Sure, you can build a Dyno queen that turns the rollers to 1k, but I'm sure any FI LSx based engine would be more drivable with similar power.
More like, more drivable at any level of power.
Simply put:
1K HP 2KZ GTE = Expensive Garage Art
1K HP LSx FI = 'expensive' driver
08-20-05, 04:34 PM
#67
Originally Posted by hjholter3
It's a ricer fanboi dream, so they too can share the 'forged by the hand of god' attitude so often seen in supra owners and Rotards.
08-20-05, 04:56 PM
#68
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Now don't get upset that the Supra has been shreading tires with the best of them since day one... It's not a ricers wet dream. Even at a 'mere' 3 liters a 2JZ has destroyed a many C5s and F bodys...
08-20-05, 07:22 PM
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Really? If I remember correctly, day one the supra was a 'big engine' celica that couldn't hold a candle to the Fbody's and Corvettes of it's day.
And to wit, the stock Last gen Supra was SLOWER than the LS1 Fbody cars, and NO comparison could be made to the C5 Corvette, Despite costing AS MUCH.
Also, you can easily find and modify and FBody or C5 for the cost of a decent (probably high mileage ragged out ) Last gen Supra.
IN FACT you could build a stunningly fast LS1/LT1/SBC/SBF FD, that would show any last gen supra its taillights, for the cost of said Supra.
and Mister JDM tyte, I'm sorry to break it to you, but there is NO replacement for displacement.
Good luck.
And to wit, the stock Last gen Supra was SLOWER than the LS1 Fbody cars, and NO comparison could be made to the C5 Corvette, Despite costing AS MUCH.
Also, you can easily find and modify and FBody or C5 for the cost of a decent (probably high mileage ragged out ) Last gen Supra.
IN FACT you could build a stunningly fast LS1/LT1/SBC/SBF FD, that would show any last gen supra its taillights, for the cost of said Supra.
and Mister JDM tyte, I'm sorry to break it to you, but there is NO replacement for displacement.
Good luck.
08-20-05, 08:20 PM
#70
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Are you on crack? The MKIV out classed the Vette ZR-1 in every aspect. Braking 1/4 mile and handling. That's pretty bad since the ZR1 was rated at 85HP and 75 ftlbs more than the MKIV Supra. With that said lets's not even go into the F-Body. LS1 powered ones don't hold a candle to the MKIV either, except being slightly faster than the previous version. The MKIV out braked the Porsche 993 and Ferrari 512TR, so I don't think an F-Body is something to worry about. How about 1/4 mile times? That is what matters most to you isn't it? How is 13.1@109.2? While the ZR-1 bested 13.6@106. The 993 hit 13.8@101.9... 0-60 in 5.1, .98g on the skid pad, 60-0 in 112ft and a slalom speed of 68.5 besting the ZR-1 in every category where it was tested at 0-60 5.3, .92g, 60-0 117ft, and a slalom of 67.1mph.
Quick, Lets compare stock specs from a 93 Supra to a 01 Z06. That way we can still have our domestic pride. For a couple grand more than the price of a Supra you can nearly double the stock HP. Ignorance sure must be bliss.
Quick, Lets compare stock specs from a 93 Supra to a 01 Z06. That way we can still have our domestic pride. For a couple grand more than the price of a Supra you can nearly double the stock HP. Ignorance sure must be bliss.
08-21-05, 12:26 AM
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they are both good engines....why argue...the fact is you are going to pay a shitload more to put a 2jz in then an ls1 just because its not as common and people dont make kits but It would be more unique.
BTW, who wants to drive around a 1000 hp car that weighs 2700 lbs? Which would be more fun to drive, an rx7 with 400 whp or one with 1000 whp?
BTW, who wants to drive around a 1000 hp car that weighs 2700 lbs? Which would be more fun to drive, an rx7 with 400 whp or one with 1000 whp?
08-21-05, 01:06 AM
#72
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Originally Posted by steve0178
they are both good engines....why argue...the fact is you are going to pay a shitload more to put a 2jz in then an ls1 just because its not as common and people dont make kits but It would be more unique.
BTW, who wants to drive around a 1000 hp car that weighs 2700 lbs? Which would be more fun to drive, an rx7 with 400 whp or one with 1000 whp?
BTW, who wants to drive around a 1000 hp car that weighs 2700 lbs? Which would be more fun to drive, an rx7 with 400 whp or one with 1000 whp?
08-21-05, 02:40 AM
#73
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Uniqueness is the last thing Id wanna hear from a ricer when the whole genre of 'rice' has a lot to do with fitting in the same profile. Its all about sneering at pushrods or dispacement, giant rims, wings, stupid paint and kazoo exhaust. Oh, and then talking **** about technology they dont understand while thinking the **** their car has is the best thing since sliced bread.
There are some people who like imports that arent ricers, and if theyre also not dickwads then theyre cool in my book. Just personally Id rather not spend as much money and deal with the lack of displacement that a lot of the import high rollahs seem to enjoy.
Cheaper and torquier over more expensive and peakier any day, at least in my book. Id rather spend the money on tires, brake pads, and other things.
And uh BTW - being more unique than a v8 RX-7 is almost nonsensical. Its never going to be a common car, even among the very very uncommon RX-7. V8s and that chassis simply work, old school carburated SBC, LS1, or whatever. But there is no reason to shrug off a nice community and at least two fabricators that sell kits to make it easier and less painful, and go a route thats relatively uncharted and could become more expensive.
2JZs ARE strong, but parts are expensive, and you'd be making your own mounts. So, pick your poison
There are some people who like imports that arent ricers, and if theyre also not dickwads then theyre cool in my book. Just personally Id rather not spend as much money and deal with the lack of displacement that a lot of the import high rollahs seem to enjoy.
Cheaper and torquier over more expensive and peakier any day, at least in my book. Id rather spend the money on tires, brake pads, and other things.
And uh BTW - being more unique than a v8 RX-7 is almost nonsensical. Its never going to be a common car, even among the very very uncommon RX-7. V8s and that chassis simply work, old school carburated SBC, LS1, or whatever. But there is no reason to shrug off a nice community and at least two fabricators that sell kits to make it easier and less painful, and go a route thats relatively uncharted and could become more expensive.
2JZs ARE strong, but parts are expensive, and you'd be making your own mounts. So, pick your poison
08-21-05, 03:17 AM
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hot rodders unite
Originally Posted by AXMDR787BOY
Are you on crack? The MKIV out classed the Vette ZR-1 in every aspect. Braking 1/4 mile and handling. That's pretty bad since the ZR1 was rated at 85HP and 75 ftlbs more than the MKIV Supra.
With that said lets's not even go into the F-Body. LS1 powered ones don't hold a candle to the MKIV either, except being slightly faster than the previous version.
Again, I hate to break it to you, but a turbo'd LS1 Fbody can make more usable power, on pump gas, and still be far more streetable, while coming under the current price point of the MKIV Supra.
The MKIV out braked the Porsche 993 and Ferrari 512TR, so I don't think an F-Body is something to worry about.
While I'm (not) impressed with what the stock Supra did in comparison to said exotics, I'm not impressed with it's price in the least.
How about 1/4 mile times? That is what matters most to you isn't it? How is 13.1@109.2?
Quick, Lets compare stock specs from a 93 Supra to a 01 Z06. That way we can still have our domestic pride. For a couple grand more than the price of a Supra you can nearly double the stock HP. Ignorance sure must be bliss.
08-21-05, 03:21 AM
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And
If you really think the Supra is that great...
Google 'Big red camaro RJ Gottlieb' and do some reading.
That's what the street performance movement is all about
Google 'Big red camaro RJ Gottlieb' and do some reading.
That's what the street performance movement is all about