Renesis crate engine?
07-19-02, 02:35 PM
#1
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Renesis crate engine?
In 2004, the Star Mazda season prize package will grow to an estimated $500,000, and the Star Mazda Series also will campaign a new chassis featuring a more powerful, next generation Mazda rotary engine. Called Renesis, the new twin-rotor, side port rotary powerplant goes into production for the Mazda RX-8 sports car.
Prototypes of the new Mazda and Elan Motorsports
Technologies (EMT)-developed Star Mazda vehicle will be unveiled later
this year at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca. The racecar will feature a
monocoque chassis built to FIA standards, the new Renesis rotary engine and a six-speed sequential gearbox. A rigorous testing program has been developed for two prototypes, which will spend the majority of the 2003 season being tested and developed at tracks around the country.
-----------------------
The Star Mazda series fields 40 cars. That's 40 crate RENESIS engines right there.
Now where's ours???
Prototypes of the new Mazda and Elan Motorsports
Technologies (EMT)-developed Star Mazda vehicle will be unveiled later
this year at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca. The racecar will feature a
monocoque chassis built to FIA standards, the new Renesis rotary engine and a six-speed sequential gearbox. A rigorous testing program has been developed for two prototypes, which will spend the majority of the 2003 season being tested and developed at tracks around the country.
-----------------------
The Star Mazda series fields 40 cars. That's 40 crate RENESIS engines right there.
Now where's ours???
07-19-02, 03:52 PM
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: "Mazda needs to finally offer a rotary crate engine program!"
Funding motorsports doesn't mean crap if the customer can't go to his local Mazdaspeed representative and buy a turnkey rotary. People want a piece of the action, not just watch the Renesis in action! You've got tons of people out there wishing their NA FBs and FCs would go faster, but still retain the reliability and simplicity of their stock motors without turning to complex, failure prone, and expensive turbo setups...that's where the Renesis comes in. This is really a no brainer.
Guys out there are payin good money to drop 2.2L Honda motors into their Civics and they're not makin near the amount of power that a Renesis makes. The import modification market is in full swing, there's a bunch of old Rx7 chassis sittng around, and Mazda just came out with an engine that makes 250hp stock...a seasoned short bus ridin' retard could read the writing on the wall and realize that Mazda could stand to make a nice chunk of change by putting their Renesis in a box with a price tag attached.
Funding motorsports doesn't mean crap if the customer can't go to his local Mazdaspeed representative and buy a turnkey rotary. People want a piece of the action, not just watch the Renesis in action! You've got tons of people out there wishing their NA FBs and FCs would go faster, but still retain the reliability and simplicity of their stock motors without turning to complex, failure prone, and expensive turbo setups...that's where the Renesis comes in. This is really a no brainer.
Guys out there are payin good money to drop 2.2L Honda motors into their Civics and they're not makin near the amount of power that a Renesis makes. The import modification market is in full swing, there's a bunch of old Rx7 chassis sittng around, and Mazda just came out with an engine that makes 250hp stock...a seasoned short bus ridin' retard could read the writing on the wall and realize that Mazda could stand to make a nice chunk of change by putting their Renesis in a box with a price tag attached.
07-19-02, 08:13 PM
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This will never happen until (or if ever) Mazda buys the rights to produce rotary engines in the US. The licensing under NSU Wankel only allows Mazda to import full vehicles containing rotary engines for retail sale. In order for Mazda to sell a rotary engine in the US at the retail level, they would have to either acquire the license from NSU Wankel or reman only those engines which were originally sold in retail vehicles. Any crate engine program would violate the US licensing rights which are now owned by the John Deere company. As far as I've heard, Mazda has no plans to purchase the US licensing.
---Jeremy
---Jeremy
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07-19-02, 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by RX7GT
This will never happen until (or if ever) Mazda buys the rights to produce rotary engines in the US. The licensing under NSU Wankel only allows Mazda to import full vehicles containing rotary engines for retail sale. In order for Mazda to sell a rotary engine in the US at the retail level, they would have to either acquire the license from NSU Wankel or reman only those engines which were originally sold in retail vehicles. Any crate engine program would violate the US licensing rights which are now owned by the John Deere company. As far as I've heard, Mazda has no plans to purchase the US licensing.
---Jeremy
This will never happen until (or if ever) Mazda buys the rights to produce rotary engines in the US. The licensing under NSU Wankel only allows Mazda to import full vehicles containing rotary engines for retail sale. In order for Mazda to sell a rotary engine in the US at the retail level, they would have to either acquire the license from NSU Wankel or reman only those engines which were originally sold in retail vehicles. Any crate engine program would violate the US licensing rights which are now owned by the John Deere company. As far as I've heard, Mazda has no plans to purchase the US licensing.
---Jeremy
Oh, and Yellow, my main interest is in developing the Renesis along normally aspirated lines...and keeping it that way. Cheaper, more reliable, and lighter.
07-19-02, 08:59 PM
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It is a violation of licensing rights for Mazda to build, assemble from new imported parts or otherwise manufacture the rotary engine for the retail market in the US.
They have actually found a loophole in the law which allows them to remanufacture rotaries for retail but these engines must have a certain percentage of used parts in them. There is also a provision for Mazda to import rotary engines under the guise of R&D which they distribute to racing and other sponsored entities. (such as PFS, Downing, etc)
You are probably right that John Deere is not making a profit with their licensure, but this is not to say that the company doesn't have plans to build rotary engines. As I recall, The license was purchased from the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Co. which had owned the US rights for a number of years. When GM was considering the mass production of the rotary in the 70's, they would have had to pay a certain fee to both NSU Wankel and to Curtiss-Wright. Maybe John Deere just bought the rights so they can sit on them and collect their own licensing fees.
There are other companies building roatry engines in the US for everything from model aircraft to real aircraft. Every time one of these companies builds an engine, a fee is paid. However, most of these companies are much smaller than Mazda Motor Co. and are not producing nearly as many engines as Mazda would if they had a crate program.
Now I'm sure you can see that owning the rights is not entirely a bad investment, at least long-term.
They have actually found a loophole in the law which allows them to remanufacture rotaries for retail but these engines must have a certain percentage of used parts in them. There is also a provision for Mazda to import rotary engines under the guise of R&D which they distribute to racing and other sponsored entities. (such as PFS, Downing, etc)
You are probably right that John Deere is not making a profit with their licensure, but this is not to say that the company doesn't have plans to build rotary engines. As I recall, The license was purchased from the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Co. which had owned the US rights for a number of years. When GM was considering the mass production of the rotary in the 70's, they would have had to pay a certain fee to both NSU Wankel and to Curtiss-Wright. Maybe John Deere just bought the rights so they can sit on them and collect their own licensing fees.
There are other companies building roatry engines in the US for everything from model aircraft to real aircraft. Every time one of these companies builds an engine, a fee is paid. However, most of these companies are much smaller than Mazda Motor Co. and are not producing nearly as many engines as Mazda would if they had a crate program.
Now I'm sure you can see that owning the rights is not entirely a bad investment, at least long-term.
07-19-02, 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by RX7GT
It is a violation of licensing rights for Mazda to build, assemble from new imported parts or otherwise manufacture the rotary engine for the retail market in the US.
They have actually found a loophole in the law which allows them to remanufacture rotaries for retail but these engines must have a certain percentage of used parts in them. There is also a provision for Mazda to import rotary engines under the guise of R&D which they distribute to racing and other sponsored entities. (such as PFS, Downing, etc)
You are probably right that John Deere is not making a profit with their licensure, but this is not to say that the company doesn't have plans to build rotary engines. As I recall, The license was purchased from the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Co. which had owned the US rights for a number of years. When GM was considering the mass production of the rotary in the 70's, they would have had to pay a certain fee to both NSU Wankel and to Curtiss-Wright. Maybe John Deere just bought the rights so they can sit on them and collect their own licensing fees.
There are other companies building roatry engines in the US for everything from model aircraft to real aircraft. Every time one of these companies builds an engine, a fee is paid. However, most of these companies are much smaller than Mazda Motor Co. and are not producing nearly as many engines as Mazda would if they had a crate program.
Now I'm sure you can see that owning the rights is not entirely a bad investment, at least long-term.
It is a violation of licensing rights for Mazda to build, assemble from new imported parts or otherwise manufacture the rotary engine for the retail market in the US.
They have actually found a loophole in the law which allows them to remanufacture rotaries for retail but these engines must have a certain percentage of used parts in them. There is also a provision for Mazda to import rotary engines under the guise of R&D which they distribute to racing and other sponsored entities. (such as PFS, Downing, etc)
You are probably right that John Deere is not making a profit with their licensure, but this is not to say that the company doesn't have plans to build rotary engines. As I recall, The license was purchased from the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Co. which had owned the US rights for a number of years. When GM was considering the mass production of the rotary in the 70's, they would have had to pay a certain fee to both NSU Wankel and to Curtiss-Wright. Maybe John Deere just bought the rights so they can sit on them and collect their own licensing fees.
There are other companies building roatry engines in the US for everything from model aircraft to real aircraft. Every time one of these companies builds an engine, a fee is paid. However, most of these companies are much smaller than Mazda Motor Co. and are not producing nearly as many engines as Mazda would if they had a crate program.
Now I'm sure you can see that owning the rights is not entirely a bad investment, at least long-term.
07-19-02, 09:38 PM
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It seems that there are two trains of thought in Mazda at the corporate level. There are the Japanese hard-core rotary designers that want to achieve a greater level of success with the rotary engine. On the other side, you have Ford Motor Company executives looking at how much it costs to build and produce a "different" type of engine and how much potential for profit there may be over the next 2-3 years.
The problem arises from the fact that a large portion of Mazda's financial backing comes from Detroit. Ford executives are more willing to go with a proven success story (Mustang, Taurus, etc) than they are to open up to new ideas simply for the fact of having something unique. In order to fully understand the conflict, one would have to understand not only corporate politics but also the cultural differences between Japan and the US.
Ford tends to keep Mazda on a pretty tight leash and it actually will surprise me to see more rotary engined cars running around on the road. I would not be surprised of Ford pulled the plug at the last minute on the RX-8. I doubt that it would come to that, but I would not be surprised. Just look at the last minute change of the 75 Chevy Monza. The car was designed to carry the GMRE but was stuck with a piston engine before any rolled from the assembly line. The decision was almost certainly affected by the rotary engine lawsuit against Mazda in the 70's in which Mazda nearly went bankrupt.
Just to simply pay a fee for the legal rights is not always just cut-and-dry. There are many other aspects which are researched and analyzed and researched some more and then analyzed again before any decision is made in regards to spending corporate money, especially the amount it would take to acquire proper manufacturing licensure.
However, if it were up to me, I would have a crate engine program for not only the Renesis but also the 20B and the 4-rotor. Hey, I can dream can't I?
The problem arises from the fact that a large portion of Mazda's financial backing comes from Detroit. Ford executives are more willing to go with a proven success story (Mustang, Taurus, etc) than they are to open up to new ideas simply for the fact of having something unique. In order to fully understand the conflict, one would have to understand not only corporate politics but also the cultural differences between Japan and the US.
Ford tends to keep Mazda on a pretty tight leash and it actually will surprise me to see more rotary engined cars running around on the road. I would not be surprised of Ford pulled the plug at the last minute on the RX-8. I doubt that it would come to that, but I would not be surprised. Just look at the last minute change of the 75 Chevy Monza. The car was designed to carry the GMRE but was stuck with a piston engine before any rolled from the assembly line. The decision was almost certainly affected by the rotary engine lawsuit against Mazda in the 70's in which Mazda nearly went bankrupt.
Just to simply pay a fee for the legal rights is not always just cut-and-dry. There are many other aspects which are researched and analyzed and researched some more and then analyzed again before any decision is made in regards to spending corporate money, especially the amount it would take to acquire proper manufacturing licensure.
However, if it were up to me, I would have a crate engine program for not only the Renesis but also the 20B and the 4-rotor. Hey, I can dream can't I?
07-19-02, 10:03 PM
#13
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Ford doesn't realize the major following the rotary engines have?
I mean... Someone tell them to visit this site and see just how many people love their cars just 'cause of the engine it has. Ford has the potential to up it's profit by creating a war between rotary and piston... By selling high-powered piston engines and high-powered rotary at the same time, you could sell twice the cars and make twice the profit...
Am I wrong? In Springfield, IL the guy who owns Best Buy also owns Circuit City right around the corner. You think he's not rolling in the ******' money? He's got the whole thing to himself. The only other places to go SUCK because they're not big franchises.
Ford needs to wake up.
I mean... Someone tell them to visit this site and see just how many people love their cars just 'cause of the engine it has. Ford has the potential to up it's profit by creating a war between rotary and piston... By selling high-powered piston engines and high-powered rotary at the same time, you could sell twice the cars and make twice the profit...
Am I wrong? In Springfield, IL the guy who owns Best Buy also owns Circuit City right around the corner. You think he's not rolling in the ******' money? He's got the whole thing to himself. The only other places to go SUCK because they're not big franchises.
Ford needs to wake up.
07-19-02, 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by RX7GT
It seems that there are two trains of thought in Mazda at the corporate level. There are the Japanese hard-core rotary designers that want to achieve a greater level of success with the rotary engine. On the other side, you have Ford Motor Company executives looking at how much it costs to build and produce a "different" type of engine and how much potential for profit there may be over the next 2-3 years.
The problem arises from the fact that a large portion of Mazda's financial backing comes from Detroit. Ford executives are more willing to go with a proven success story (Mustang, Taurus, etc) than they are to open up to new ideas simply for the fact of having something unique. In order to fully understand the conflict, one would have to understand not only corporate politics but also the cultural differences between Japan and the US.
Ford tends to keep Mazda on a pretty tight leash and it actually will surprise me to see more rotary engined cars running around on the road. I would not be surprised of Ford pulled the plug at the last minute on the RX-8. I doubt that it would come to that, but I would not be surprised. Just look at the last minute change of the 75 Chevy Monza. The car was designed to carry the GMRE but was stuck with a piston engine before any rolled from the assembly line. The decision was almost certainly affected by the rotary engine lawsuit against Mazda in the 70's in which Mazda nearly went bankrupt.
Just to simply pay a fee for the legal rights is not always just cut-and-dry. There are many other aspects which are researched and analyzed and researched some more and then analyzed again before any decision is made in regards to spending corporate money, especially the amount it would take to acquire proper manufacturing licensure.
However, if it were up to me, I would have a crate engine program for not only the Renesis but also the 20B and the 4-rotor. Hey, I can dream can't I?
It seems that there are two trains of thought in Mazda at the corporate level. There are the Japanese hard-core rotary designers that want to achieve a greater level of success with the rotary engine. On the other side, you have Ford Motor Company executives looking at how much it costs to build and produce a "different" type of engine and how much potential for profit there may be over the next 2-3 years.
The problem arises from the fact that a large portion of Mazda's financial backing comes from Detroit. Ford executives are more willing to go with a proven success story (Mustang, Taurus, etc) than they are to open up to new ideas simply for the fact of having something unique. In order to fully understand the conflict, one would have to understand not only corporate politics but also the cultural differences between Japan and the US.
Ford tends to keep Mazda on a pretty tight leash and it actually will surprise me to see more rotary engined cars running around on the road. I would not be surprised of Ford pulled the plug at the last minute on the RX-8. I doubt that it would come to that, but I would not be surprised. Just look at the last minute change of the 75 Chevy Monza. The car was designed to carry the GMRE but was stuck with a piston engine before any rolled from the assembly line. The decision was almost certainly affected by the rotary engine lawsuit against Mazda in the 70's in which Mazda nearly went bankrupt.
Just to simply pay a fee for the legal rights is not always just cut-and-dry. There are many other aspects which are researched and analyzed and researched some more and then analyzed again before any decision is made in regards to spending corporate money, especially the amount it would take to acquire proper manufacturing licensure.
However, if it were up to me, I would have a crate engine program for not only the Renesis but also the 20B and the 4-rotor. Hey, I can dream can't I?
Car companies are struggling hard to make four cylinder engines put out even 200hp and Mazda's 13B is makin 250 with possibly more potential ponies to be tapped...remember the 280hp Evolv version? That's an amazing product, and for Ford to just pull the plug on it would be absolute idiocy. Did I mention that there are a lot of people with Rx7s that would like a new engine that made a lot more power?
07-20-02, 08:17 AM
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Ford merely thinks in numbers. And not the 15,000+ people who come here as deciples of the rotary. More like the 500,000 who will buy a Taurus next year.
I agree with RX7GT. They still could pull the plug on the whole program. I will start talking about a crate motor the day I see an RX8 riding around my town with a state issued liscense plate and not a manufacturers.
Do you think John Deere has exclusive rights to sell in Canada also? Or is it a U.S. liscense.
I agree with RX7GT. They still could pull the plug on the whole program. I will start talking about a crate motor the day I see an RX8 riding around my town with a state issued liscense plate and not a manufacturers.
Do you think John Deere has exclusive rights to sell in Canada also? Or is it a U.S. liscense.
07-21-02, 12:56 PM
#18
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Originally posted by RX7GT
The decision was almost certainly affected by the rotary engine lawsuit against Mazda in the 70's in which Mazda nearly went bankrupt.
The decision was almost certainly affected by the rotary engine lawsuit against Mazda in the 70's in which Mazda nearly went bankrupt.
Patents are only good for a certain amount of time. Hasn't the time limit expired for the Rotary engine and the NSU rotary licences? If not, wouldn't VW be more than happy to grant Mazda a licence. They're not making any money off the rotary engine right now.
07-21-02, 04:31 PM
#19
Old [Sch|F]ool
I believe the patent did run out. Earlier rotaries have "Produced under license from NSU-Wankel" cast in to the top of the rotor housings. I believe this stopped somewhere in the late 80's/early 90's.
07-21-02, 04:41 PM
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it ran out about 6 yrs ago.thats how they were able to move onto the side port design of the renesis.rx-01 and rx-evolv and rx-8.under nsu they were not allowed to change port design.
07-23-02, 04:30 AM
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I have a RENESIS engine with all accessories included. It has 2,000 miles on it and runs excellent since removal. Email me if you are interesting in buying it. I'll sell it for about $3000-$4000 usd
