Friend's rotary baja
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10-24-10, 10:05 PM
#13
I had to search for this thread. Sorry for the delay. Here is a test burnout on the old tranny (lincoln locked) in some guy's yard. We were testing the new radiator fans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB4tiR4C5Dk
The engine doesn't run anymore. It sat with straight water in it while we were testing cooling systems a couple of years ago. It seems the water ate into the housings and has gotten into the combustion chambers, rusting the seals in place. Plus it's an old 74 3B streetport built in 1990 or so (we installed it in the baja in '99). Probably time for retirement.
Last time we got it running, the spark plugs were a little wet and rusty. Of course we swapped in some coolant but I feared the damage was already done. The owner wasn't too concerned because we got it running after some new BR8EQ-14s were swapped in. I think I'm right as just earlier last year during the snow we had, it wouldn't start. He had to drive his gutless air cooled 1776 baja instead.
You need either a high torque starter shown above or a 6 volt running on 12 volts to start a rotary in a VW reliably. Of course if you have a good compression engine, that helps too.
I'm just about ready to build a 4 port 13B and stick a 7" Camden on it for this baja. I'll break it in in my REPU first.
Now I need you guys' help. What color scheme should I go with? I don't like the old ketchup and mustard theme on the old engine. Always looked like McDonalds to me. Too much yellow.
Let's pick colors that will work with the car's paint job and how nicely the tranny turned out. I'm thinking something with red, white, black, maybe some yellow, maybe some natural aluminum or anything that would look tasteful. The carb will be a natural finish Edelbrock. The Camden is natural aluminum and probably won't be painted. The KEP adaptor is natural. The exhaust is ceramic coated black. The pictures above speak for themselves. Let me know what would look nice. Thanks!
The engine doesn't run anymore. It sat with straight water in it while we were testing cooling systems a couple of years ago. It seems the water ate into the housings and has gotten into the combustion chambers, rusting the seals in place. Plus it's an old 74 3B streetport built in 1990 or so (we installed it in the baja in '99). Probably time for retirement.
Last time we got it running, the spark plugs were a little wet and rusty. Of course we swapped in some coolant but I feared the damage was already done. The owner wasn't too concerned because we got it running after some new BR8EQ-14s were swapped in. I think I'm right as just earlier last year during the snow we had, it wouldn't start. He had to drive his gutless air cooled 1776 baja instead.
You need either a high torque starter shown above or a 6 volt running on 12 volts to start a rotary in a VW reliably. Of course if you have a good compression engine, that helps too.
I'm just about ready to build a 4 port 13B and stick a 7" Camden on it for this baja. I'll break it in in my REPU first.
Now I need you guys' help. What color scheme should I go with? I don't like the old ketchup and mustard theme on the old engine. Always looked like McDonalds to me. Too much yellow.
Let's pick colors that will work with the car's paint job and how nicely the tranny turned out. I'm thinking something with red, white, black, maybe some yellow, maybe some natural aluminum or anything that would look tasteful. The carb will be a natural finish Edelbrock. The Camden is natural aluminum and probably won't be painted. The KEP adaptor is natural. The exhaust is ceramic coated black. The pictures above speak for themselves. Let me know what would look nice. Thanks!
10-25-10, 12:46 AM
#15
I was kind of planning to surprise the owner with a fully turn key setup as he has helped me out with my stuff for years. So no, I won't use any of the parts other than the KEP adaptor and other VW-specific parts when it's time to do the actual swap. But I already have the necessary hard parts to build the new engine like the same type of front cover, oil pan etc. Then I'll get to keep the core to see if there's anything worth reusing/keeping for the next engine for somethng else.
So you like red and aluminum? That's a great combination. Anyone else care to chime in?
So you like red and aluminum? That's a great combination. Anyone else care to chime in?
10-25-10, 06:55 PM
#18
I like using aluminum colored engine paint on just the housings and front cover with whatever colored engine paint on the plates to match the body color. It makes them look better than just old castings and gives a nice contrast. The GLC's orange plates and aluminum painted housings looks very beautiful. I don't know if I've uploaded any pictures of its new engine yet. Have I?
10-28-10, 11:07 PM
#19
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Keep the red parts red and make the yellow parts white if you want to go two colors. If you want to go one color, go all white and it will look really clean... until inherently the engine gets dirty.
10-29-10, 01:40 PM
#20
The old engine was all white before the owner painted it red and yellow. But red and white might be a nice color combination.
Hey guys I'd like you to click through Banzai's colored engine pictures.
https://www.rx7club.com/album.php?al...pictureid=3233
Hey guys I'd like you to click through Banzai's colored engine pictures.
https://www.rx7club.com/album.php?al...pictureid=3233
10-29-10, 11:45 PM
#21
Since the rear bodywork surrounding the engine is red, make the irons red. For aluminum parts, either scotch brite it to its natural finish then clear coat, or the aluminum paint would be good. The contrast would be nice and aluminum is oh so pretty.
What are the gear ratios and final drive on the bus tranny?
What are the gear ratios and final drive on the bus tranny?
10-30-10, 02:19 AM
#22
Thanks for the advice. Turns out I have some chrome paint. It is a little brighter than engine paint aluminum, but I'm not sure how long it lasts. Come to think of it, I think Banzai used this 'color' on some of his engines, as they do indeed look brighter than a typical aluminum engine paint usually does. Hmm... It might be the right choice for aluminum parts.
Hey, what do you think of a metallic red on the irons? I've got a fairly nice looking one. I also have red engine paint which looks like a pretty shade just looking at the cap. Their Ford blue and Chevy orange are very nice shades, and look great with aluminum painted housings.
You know, that starter looks good (pictured above). If I can determine which shade that is, it might make a perfect color for the plates. Something bright and good looking, but it has to be an accurate or true color. No slight orangeness or burgundy.
The old tranny was a 5 rib that felt like it was geared too tall for the big tires and the current streetport (lacking in low end torque). We figured 4.86. The current tranny is more like a 5.something and is a lot better suited to the engine's power range. However if we do a stock port as planned, it will improve things even more. This tranny is a 3 rib. It thankfully does not have acorn nuts, which I learned is early and something to avoid.
Hey, what do you think of a metallic red on the irons? I've got a fairly nice looking one. I also have red engine paint which looks like a pretty shade just looking at the cap. Their Ford blue and Chevy orange are very nice shades, and look great with aluminum painted housings.
You know, that starter looks good (pictured above). If I can determine which shade that is, it might make a perfect color for the plates. Something bright and good looking, but it has to be an accurate or true color. No slight orangeness or burgundy.
The old tranny was a 5 rib that felt like it was geared too tall for the big tires and the current streetport (lacking in low end torque). We figured 4.86. The current tranny is more like a 5.something and is a lot better suited to the engine's power range. However if we do a stock port as planned, it will improve things even more. This tranny is a 3 rib. It thankfully does not have acorn nuts, which I learned is early and something to avoid.
02-17-12, 09:35 PM
#23
I've got an update. The ketchup and mustard engine died! Remember it was built in 1990 and has non-nitrided 3B side plates, plus it was stored with straight water in it for a while.
Tom sold it to the original owner who built the baja in the 90s. The new owner said he thinks a washer got dropped down the carb. Wouldn't surprise me with the weird carb hat. I'll see about improving the crappy situation back there.
The new engine needs to have more low end torque but still compatible with the RB Holley. I'm thinking 74 spec. The current dead engine started life as a stock 74 ported engine (3B plates from a REPU) which was then streetported in the late 80s and installed in what is now PercentSevenC's white REPU. It was known as the "white" engine. Everything was painted white, including the waterpump. It would get dirty, believe me, from being looked it! I helped Tom do the rotary conversion in '99. That's when he painted it with condiments.
I didn't question the color choices back then as he had experience painting and I didn't. But it quickly became apparent he used way too much yellow. Blaech. I think I've come a ways since then. The new owner wants black and silver (you can't go wrong with classic colors).
He wants low end torque so these old streetported side plates have to go. I'll throw in some low mile nitrided Y or R5 plates for longevity and port them for free-ish (he's a bug guy and my baja needs a brake job so...). Gonna do 74 spec so he can keep his Holley and still zing up to 8k while retaining low end torque. That's how it worked out in the GLC - almost an identical setup to what I'm doing for this baja, even down to the beehive!
The old engine would smoke on startup, another symptom of high miles and non-nitrided side plates. Now with nitriding, the the oil seals outlive the apex seals. Gonna go with Viton o-rings and competition outer springs for no smoke at startup.
The engine lost an apex seal and I don't have any other "MAZDA" rotor housings so it'll get swapped with frankly better 76+ housings. I wonder how much missing chrome the old housings have? The header flange is from RB so it will cover any thermal reactor air passages the new housings may have.
Some exhaust porting is necessary as US-spec ports are pretty small. Or if I go with J-spec housings from an R5, I may still port them a little. It depends on what the original port timing is. They might start out at GSL-SE spec?
The rear plate will be from a beehive 12A. Reason being, this baja uses a beehive, but the old 3B plate had a threaded in heater fitting which has a small section which acts like the restrictor you find in the steel heater core tube in the engine bay of FBs. You see, the restrictor is on the hose/fitting that feeds the heater core, but the beehive is supposed to be kept free flowing for obvious reasons. Lucky this baja has a huge aftermarket radiator to keep things cool. No wonder it used to overheat the oil when it just had a little short 3 row 1st gen rad. The rear plate has a T fitting, pressed in = full flow. The baja also has a heater core but I won't add a restrictor unless it's found to be necessary. Gonna watch oil temps.
What else is there? Hmm, oh I wish the new engine was already fully broken in so he could turn the key and have fun, but it will require a break in period. At least he knows about break in periods as he builds a lot of air cooled VWs, so a rotary is not so strange? Well, he doesn't want to touch it. He's as bug guy.
I'll get back to this thread with pics of the internal destruction. Maybe in a week or two.
Tom sold it to the original owner who built the baja in the 90s. The new owner said he thinks a washer got dropped down the carb. Wouldn't surprise me with the weird carb hat. I'll see about improving the crappy situation back there.
The new engine needs to have more low end torque but still compatible with the RB Holley. I'm thinking 74 spec. The current dead engine started life as a stock 74 ported engine (3B plates from a REPU) which was then streetported in the late 80s and installed in what is now PercentSevenC's white REPU. It was known as the "white" engine. Everything was painted white, including the waterpump. It would get dirty, believe me, from being looked it! I helped Tom do the rotary conversion in '99. That's when he painted it with condiments.
I didn't question the color choices back then as he had experience painting and I didn't. But it quickly became apparent he used way too much yellow. Blaech. I think I've come a ways since then. The new owner wants black and silver (you can't go wrong with classic colors).
He wants low end torque so these old streetported side plates have to go. I'll throw in some low mile nitrided Y or R5 plates for longevity and port them for free-ish (he's a bug guy and my baja needs a brake job so...). Gonna do 74 spec so he can keep his Holley and still zing up to 8k while retaining low end torque. That's how it worked out in the GLC - almost an identical setup to what I'm doing for this baja, even down to the beehive!
The old engine would smoke on startup, another symptom of high miles and non-nitrided side plates. Now with nitriding, the the oil seals outlive the apex seals.
Gonna go with Viton o-rings and competition outer springs for no smoke at startup.The engine lost an apex seal and I don't have any other "MAZDA" rotor housings so it'll get swapped with frankly better 76+ housings. I wonder how much missing chrome the old housings have? The header flange is from RB so it will cover any thermal reactor air passages the new housings may have.
Some exhaust porting is necessary as US-spec ports are pretty small. Or if I go with J-spec housings from an R5, I may still port them a little. It depends on what the original port timing is. They might start out at GSL-SE spec?
The rear plate will be from a beehive 12A. Reason being, this baja uses a beehive, but the old 3B plate had a threaded in heater fitting which has a small section which acts like the restrictor you find in the steel heater core tube in the engine bay of FBs. You see, the restrictor is on the hose/fitting that feeds the heater core, but the beehive is supposed to be kept free flowing for obvious reasons. Lucky this baja has a huge aftermarket radiator to keep things cool. No wonder it used to overheat the oil when it just had a little short 3 row 1st gen rad. The rear plate has a T fitting, pressed in = full flow. The baja also has a heater core but I won't add a restrictor unless it's found to be necessary. Gonna watch oil temps.
What else is there? Hmm, oh I wish the new engine was already fully broken in so he could turn the key and have fun, but it will require a break in period. At least he knows about break in periods as he builds a lot of air cooled VWs, so a rotary is not so strange? Well, he doesn't want to touch it. He's as bug guy.
I'll get back to this thread with pics of the internal destruction. Maybe in a week or two.
03-29-12, 04:59 PM
#24
I can give you guys an update. The Micky D's engine is torn down. Turns out the front rotor had a carb washer go through it. The washers from an RB Holley kit. Fun!
I'll make this quick so I can get back to work on it. No pics yet but eventually. Just use your imagination for now, ok?
The end plates are actually R5 and had been resurfaced so lost all their nitriding (dummy move). The int plate is a 3B and had been resurfaced too, which is ok as it never was nitrided from the factory and the iron is slightly harder. Still made little difference as this engine always smoked on startup which you'd expect from an old high mile engine. Nope. This was a low mile engine and the apex seals (from the rear rotor) were only worn down to 8.10mm. No excuse for smoke at startup other than stupidity (resurfaced without a rehardening, if such a thing is truely possible; I've never seen it). The oil seals and all other seals from the sides of the rotors are bad from the very abrasive (soft) irons.
All four ports were streetported. Ok for a street driven FB or just barely ok for a rotary truck, but not for a baja with huge tires. This thing had NO low end torque. Quite an embarassment, actually. All that work went into it and it's now a lot more gutless than the previous I4 it had from a Rabbit or whatever. No wonder the PO sold it back to the previous owner.
The port job is one of the worst I've ever seen. It's like amateur hour over here. No smoothing, deep cuts at the port opening but no blending at all. All they wanted was the timing to change but cared nothing for actual flow. Sadly this is typical in some shops.
None of these plates can be used again as the front and int had lots of scratch marks from busted apex seals while the rear and int had water damage from a crushed inner coolant seal. Vaseline strikes again - reason I don't use it.
Of course one rotor and housing are dead. The other rotor and housing are questionable but ok to keep as spares.
The shaft suffered some damage when the original 74 thrutst assembly ate itself as they often do (the early ones). It would push forward whenever the clutch was push in, and started eating away at the front stat gear. The PO drove it from here to oregon and back (in his REPU) while towing a sand rail on a trailer. Wow. Lots of score marks too. Bearings are shot.
One good thing about this engine is at least they used the high volume oil pump from the R5 core they used during the rebuild. Speaking of score marks, it's done. Also the chain was beyond spec of 12mm of slop and both sprockets had to be tossed.
Can anything be used from this engine? Not really. The oil pan had some very deep pitting from a skid plate located too close which kept water from drying. Um, the pickup tube? Nope, it was covered in... something weird. The front cover? Well I had an already prepped one so I used it instead on the new engine.
The new engine is almost ready to go in. Just waiting on a tranny and a new clutch disc. I got the pressure plate yesterday. A Kennedy Stage II. This should be enough to hold the power of the new engine. Details to come later.
The washers from an RB Holley kit. Fun!I'll make this quick so I can get back to work on it. No pics yet but eventually. Just use your imagination for now, ok?
The end plates are actually R5 and had been resurfaced so lost all their nitriding (dummy move). The int plate is a 3B and had been resurfaced too, which is ok as it never was nitrided from the factory and the iron is slightly harder. Still made little difference as this engine always smoked on startup which you'd expect from an old high mile engine. Nope. This was a low mile engine and the apex seals (from the rear rotor) were only worn down to 8.10mm. No excuse for smoke at startup other than stupidity (resurfaced without a rehardening, if such a thing is truely possible; I've never seen it). The oil seals and all other seals from the sides of the rotors are bad from the very abrasive (soft) irons.
All four ports were streetported. Ok for a street driven FB or just barely ok for a rotary truck, but not for a baja with huge tires. This thing had NO low end torque. Quite an embarassment, actually. All that work went into it and it's now a lot more gutless than the previous I4 it had from a Rabbit or whatever. No wonder the PO sold it back to the previous owner.
The port job is one of the worst I've ever seen. It's like amateur hour over here. No smoothing, deep cuts at the port opening but no blending at all. All they wanted was the timing to change but cared nothing for actual flow. Sadly this is typical in some shops.
None of these plates can be used again as the front and int had lots of scratch marks from busted apex seals while the rear and int had water damage from a crushed inner coolant seal. Vaseline strikes again - reason I don't use it.
Of course one rotor and housing are dead. The other rotor and housing are questionable but ok to keep as spares.
The shaft suffered some damage when the original 74 thrutst assembly ate itself as they often do (the early ones). It would push forward whenever the clutch was push in, and started eating away at the front stat gear. The PO drove it from here to oregon and back (in his REPU) while towing a sand rail on a trailer. Wow. Lots of score marks too. Bearings are shot.
One good thing about this engine is at least they used the high volume oil pump from the R5 core they used during the rebuild. Speaking of score marks, it's done. Also the chain was beyond spec of 12mm of slop and both sprockets had to be tossed.
Can anything be used from this engine? Not really. The oil pan had some very deep pitting from a skid plate located too close which kept water from drying. Um, the pickup tube? Nope, it was covered in... something weird. The front cover? Well I had an already prepped one so I used it instead on the new engine.
The new engine is almost ready to go in. Just waiting on a tranny and a new clutch disc. I got the pressure plate yesterday. A Kennedy Stage II. This should be enough to hold the power of the new engine. Details to come later.
04-05-12, 10:39 PM
#25
Here is the baja's new engine.
Engine all done except a clutch disc. New Kennedy stage 2 in the box.
T3 turbo. Hotside's a little small but good enough to get us started.
Resprayed with wrinklefinish and tidied up the wiring a bit.
Engine all done except a clutch disc. New Kennedy stage 2 in the box.
T3 turbo. Hotside's a little small but good enough to get us started.
Resprayed with wrinklefinish and tidied up the wiring a bit.