I have recently installed the Webber DCOE 48 side drafts on my 13B SE. I can’t get the motor running. It seems as if the car floods very rapidly.

FYIs:

• Compression on both rotors was 80-80-80, the throttle plates were not open and bat was a bit low. So I think compression is fine due to the major flooding that has occurred and the low bat. I have started worse motors that had less compression easier then this.
• FPR replaced and set to 3 psi with the return line added, also blew compressed air down the return to verify it was clean. Double checked that the fuel lines are connected correctly. They are.
• Checked spark with four separate spark plugs on all plug wires, looked good to me. Hell without the plugs in the spark will still jump the gap to the chassis.
• Replaced needle valve after I fixed my bad FPR. Now my fuel pressure has never gone above 4 psi.
• Installed an inline switch to cut the fuel pump.
• Going to do a cooling system pressure test tonight. If it holds great, if not I’ll see if I have coolant in the combustion chamber by pulling the header off and plugs out.
• I have also pulled everything apart (carb upper manifold, lower manifold) and found two bolt holes that would create a huge vacuum leak, plugged them. Looked for any packing debris in the manifolds and carb or blockages, none. While doing this I stuck my fingers down the intake on the rotor housings, I can feel the rotors so no blockage there.
• I do see gas vapor shoot out when I run trough a de-flooding procedure, so I know gas makes it into the combustion chamber.
• Also my aux port sleeves have been removed.

So this weekend I decide to pull the car behind a truck for a few blocks. It was able to fire although it ran very rough and stalled out as soon as I gave it gas. I did this a few times and the same results occur. After a bit I noticed I had gas dripping from my floats and I cut fuel. Drug her around some more and the same things happened. Maybe next time I drag it for a few hours?



So maybe my jets are too large?

Maybe the fuel soaked the gasket in-between the UIM and LIM and now leaks? (I see some gas around that area after trying to start it a few time.



I could use a hand, I’m running out of ideas. Which is a first. I think I have better luck with EFI systems, go figure.



P.S. For those who think the motor is bad I am currently stripping down the good motor that was in my old SE and will do the swap if needed. However I would like to get the motor in the car to run on its own before pulling it.

 

Where in WA are you located?

 

Redmond area.



I should add more info, it may make my first post sound better.



I bought the car without the carb and manifold. The previous owner sold them separately. But just before that he had a stuck thermostat and it got a bit warm. After that he noticed slight white smoke out the back. So the engine could weary, but I think it should start and run.

 

If anyone can help Joe....please help him..we need him at Apple Blossom badly.

 

Wierd. If you run the fuel pump for about ten seconds, then kill it. Start the car what would/does it do. It should idle/run for about 15 seconds with the gas in the float bowl... Just out of the pressure difference with no pump running. I use to drain the gas out of my harley i mean holley before working on it that way. Doing that may help isolate your problem.

What kind of FPR are you using? I have had my fair share of problems with them. Did you use a gauge to verify you are actually getting only 3 psi. You are not using the SE pump are you. If you are that is probably your problem Racing Beat manual recommends 4.5 for Webers. Well now i have exhausted all my knowledge, but if you like i can ramble on about other things i know nothing about.? Good Luck

 

I replaced the Holley FPR with a Mallory 4309 FPR. The old Holley had a holley gauge so I just swapped it over. I have the fuel pressure set to 4psi right now from the holley gauge reading. I running a holley blue pump.

No the car does not even idle or start with the fuel pump primed like that.

I'm really starting to lean towards the motor being the problem, but it ran great (the preivous owner said) before I bought it. The other thing that gets me is why do I see gas coming out of the floats every now and then, am I just flooding it very badly?

Thanks Guys.

 

While you are doing all these things. Have you taken the plugs out and then manually turn the engine to see if fuel comes out of the spark plug holes...

Have you completly closed the idel mix screws so they are completly closed and then put new plugs in the engine, then try starting it to see if it even tries to run..

when my car floods it will not start with the same plugs.. I have to put new plugs to get it going.... not sure if you have tried that...

then if it tries to start for a few seconds then you might want to open the idel mix screws about one turn and try to start again, and continue opening the idle mix screws 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time to see what it does.. until it starts...


Again, I went through a hell of a lot of new sparkplugs when I was adjusting my 45DCOE weber for proper fuel pressure and fine tuning...

 

Yes.

No, where are these and righty tighty will close them?

I have four sets of spark plugs. One is near brand new. I've checked spark with multiple plugs and I have a good spark on all.


I'll try that and also pick up a new set of plugs to eliminate this.

Thanks

 

my car wasn't starting, i couldn't figure it out, getting fuel and spark, but getting puffs of smoke thru my intake manifold... turns out my front pulley was put on wrong, but my remedy was to switch L1 and L2 and T1 and T2... so L2/T2 went to the front rotor and L1/T1 went to the rear rotor... thing started right up... was so great... but now i think i'll pull the belt off and put the pulley on right and try again with the wires going to the right place

 

At this point I'll give that a shot also.

You don't know how many times I have checked and double checked that I was hooking up the plug wires in the correct order. I can do it in my sleep now.

 

The reason I mentioned new spark plugs is because I did the same I had a set of plugs that were brand new, then the car flooded, and I tell you this, once the car flooded those new flooded plugs would not start the car... Yes, you can use them later, but I had to put a brand new set to get it going... it worth a try...

Also, if you are going to completly close the idle mix screws make sure to count how many turns it took you to close them in.. do that for the screw that controls the front rotor and same for the screw that controls the rear rotor.. that way if you get it started, you will have a point of reference to go back to...

 

It Sounds like you are doing everything right. Are webers that tempermental? What do you mean gas coming out of the floats. Can you see the floats on a weber, I have never played with a weber only holleys. Do you mean the venturis that hang in the middle of the carb. If so you have a wicked bad flooding problem. The one time i had gas dripping out of the venturis on my holley, it was the needle valve that controls gas coming in to the bowl a small piece of O ring had torn off and got stuck between the needle and seat, not allowing the needle to close and over filling the bowl.

What i would do next is charge the battery really good, then put the charger on jumpstart mode, so you have extra amps, and really get the motor spinning. Hold the gas pedal all the way down and start cranking the engine. That works for me when I flooded my holley.
If it does not start after like 15 seconds, bring on the ether, and try the same thing.
To bad you didn't live closer to me I would give you a hand. Good Luck

 

I replaced my needle valve after my FPR went bad and this stopped the large amounts of gas coming out of the floats/venturis (gas comes out the side draft carbs and puddles on the motor, used to) and now after some time trying to start the sucker do I see a little amount of gas doing the same thing.

After hunting and chating with a few people it sounds like the motor could just be floaded extremely bad and I'll try towing it a few blocks more in 2nd gear. The fact that it does start and run (although very rough and floods with any throttle input and runs for a very short time) is promising.

Before I do that though Rob at rotary shack is going to walk me through how to adjust (lower) the float level. I'll then check the cooling system pressure and see how bad (if) the coolant seal is bad. After that the new plugs and towing.

In the mean time I'm stripping down my other ,working, 13b and getting it ready for the motor swap.

Still Trying, Thanks for all the input.
Joe

 

joe, im probably going to be up in your area this week, and would be glad to lend a hand.

Hell, we couold even try using the carb on my car just to see if thats the problem!

 

Sounds good to me.

I can't believe that the carb could be the problem, its brand new. Besides some tuning adjustments I thought it would fire right up. So I'm hoping the same thing occurs if/when I swap another one on.

On that note I know the engine could have a bad coolant seal (will know tonight for sure) and be flooded bad so that could be it also. But even with a bad seal the compression is good and from past experiences I have been able to start motors that were far more blown and flooded.

I just can't seem to get it to fire and stay running. I'm now down to two possible problems and one will be tested shortly. I'll get it, sooner or later.

Thanks

 

I did the cooling system pressure test last night. Pressurized the system to 17 psi and watched. No leaks out of any hose and the pressure only dropped half a psi. I did not see any coolant in the combustion chambers or in the exhaust. The half psi drop was probably my testing pump, I noticed a slight bit of coolant build up on the top where the release valve is. It held 16-17 psi for an half hour. I think my coolant seals are good.

I then zeroed out my timing just in case this could be the problem. I have four marks on my after market pulley, so I just lined up with the first notch on the pulley as you rotate the engine clockwise thinking that the first notch was 10 or 5 degrees advance and then reinstalled the distributor (making sure to line up the dimple and notch on the distributor shaft). Tried to start it, not go.

I then went to the second notch which I thought was ether 5 or 0 degrees advanced. Aligned the distributor marks and tried again. No fire.

I then went the third mark which would be 5 or 10 degrees retarded and still no fire. I then went back to the first mark and aligned the distributor. I’ll leave it here tell I can get it running and put the timing light on it.

So now the timing and the motor have been checked out. While I was hunting and trying to get it to start I notched the gasket between the stock lower manifold and the after marker upper Webber manifold (not the one between the carb and the manifold) was soaked with gas and leaking, I saw gas vapor shoot out of that when trying to start it. Could a bad gasket at in-between of the two manifolds cause some starting problems? I’ll either order another or just RTV it.

Some please chime in if they have had starting/running problems if that gasket is bad.

Thanks
Joe

 

of course! if there is a vaccume leak at the gasket its not going to run! Whatcha doing today I might be down to come over and give a hand. I've got class at 6 though.

 

I have class tell 8:30pm today, Sorry I’m booked. I would love the help and the second pair of eyes. Maybe Friday or this weekend?

Would RTV work in this case or should I just buy a new gasket?

I guess when my Holley FPR went south and allowed 14 psi to shoot into the carb it took the needle valve out and the paper gasket also. I have just noticed the gasket though.

I must be getting close to the root cause and root problems. It will be running soon.

Thanks

 

Side Note:

The vaccum control actuators (not sure if that is the correct name) on the distributor base, one was leaking a red oil from the vaccum tube. This is right where you would adjust the trailing timing and such. I have no vaccum source hooked to them and I couldn't figure out what they would be used for on a stock un-modded car. Can someone explain those deals to me and why they may have red oil/fluid coming out of them when turned upside down?

 

Hey Joe:
I'm still learing about these triangle piston thingies. My only $.02 would be to suggest you check your jet size. Does someone else running this version of carb have a suggestion for jet size? If not I can try to dig up a bud that I hung with years ago... he autox's something similar to your setup.
Good luck,
Jim

 

doubt its his jets its a rotary shack weber it'll atleast be close enough to run. Everythingrobert has recomended has only worked out for my tuning benifit. New gasket man don't want to go cheap there...

 

I have checked the jet sizes with HornBM and they are the same (HornBM has a webber 48 also). Rob sent me two sets, one for stock port and the other for a street port. I've double checked to make sure I have the smaller ones in and I do. Thanks Jim and Matt.

I think it is the gasket. I just couldn't see/feel any thing becasue I was sitting in the car cranking it. Once I was able to get the key ignition out to the engine bay I could hear, see and feel a large leak in-between the lower stock manifold and the upper webber manifold.

After checking compression, timing, cooling system, fuel system and a few others I think I've narrowed it down to the gasket. Go figure.

I think when my Holley FPR went bad it took out the needle valve and the gasket too.

Could I just buy some gasket making material and do it my self? The reason why I ask is becasue the gasket that is on there now over laps some intake holes and just is a bad fit in general.

Thanks for all's input. I'm almost got it.

P.S. I could still use an answer on this: