which oil is good to use?
11-24-08, 11:33 AM
#27
Full Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: huntsville AL
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I feel I have been educated...;)
word up icemark...I know the old "synthetic VS conventionals" debate is a touchy subject on this board. but I was just thinking (assuming, and you know what they say about ASSumption) that if you're premixing then you need not worry about how well the oil you choose to use burns or effects the apexs since your engine really wouldn't be, or well shouldn't be, consuming very much if any oil anyways. and now that I'm probably gonna be premixing I will more than likely start using some kind of synthetic once I rebuild and install my original 12a. although, i think im gonna stick with what i've been using on this motor since it is whats been used in it for the most part so far. What do you think about switching to a synthetic after many miles on a convetional? do you think this would be advisable, I mean I know on a lot of higher mileage piston engines they say that if you've ran conventionals for 100,000+ miles it is not wise to switch to synthetics as they actually work "too good" as far as how well they clean and lubricate the engine. I know everyone has heard stories of people switching to mobile 1 or a similar synthetic and all of a sudden their high mileage engine is burning, leaking and consuming more oil than before..whats your take icemark?....
Well lets educate that semi-educated mind...
#1 Most synthetics burn at or under 500F... considerably lower than what the combustion cycle in a rotary motor is (in fact not unusual to see exhaust temps 3 times 500F).
#2 Most synthetics burn cleaner with less ash, and leftovers than almost all conventional oils. Yes there are a few exceptions, Vavoline and Havoline synthetics have a higher than average ash ratio (what is left after burning the oil) but even in those it is typically less than 1.5 percent. Some like Redline and Amsoil have a less than .5 percent ash ratio. As a comparison, Castrol GTX (probably the most popular oil used on this board) has an ash ratio of about .8 percent.
In conventional oils higher in viscosity additives (such as most 10W40 oils and 5W30 oils) will have a higher ash ratio than oils that have less additives (such as 10W30 or 20W50), however some synthetic oils (Mobil1 for example) have 0 additives for viscosity, again leading to a cleaner engine with less combustion build up.
So actually better for your apex and side seals to use most synthetics...
The only reason not to use a synthetic oil in a rotary is cost. There is no other reason. If you can't afford it, don't use it, other wise a good quality synthetic will be better for your motor in the long run.
Other notes:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and used synthetic oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Redline, Amsoil and Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for twenty plus years with excellent results.
The Speedsource 2 rotor and 3 rotor RX-8 race cars that have won their class in the Daytona 24 hours, 4 out of the last 5 years using Castrol Syntec.
#1 Most synthetics burn at or under 500F... considerably lower than what the combustion cycle in a rotary motor is (in fact not unusual to see exhaust temps 3 times 500F).
#2 Most synthetics burn cleaner with less ash, and leftovers than almost all conventional oils. Yes there are a few exceptions, Vavoline and Havoline synthetics have a higher than average ash ratio (what is left after burning the oil) but even in those it is typically less than 1.5 percent. Some like Redline and Amsoil have a less than .5 percent ash ratio. As a comparison, Castrol GTX (probably the most popular oil used on this board) has an ash ratio of about .8 percent.
In conventional oils higher in viscosity additives (such as most 10W40 oils and 5W30 oils) will have a higher ash ratio than oils that have less additives (such as 10W30 or 20W50), however some synthetic oils (Mobil1 for example) have 0 additives for viscosity, again leading to a cleaner engine with less combustion build up.
So actually better for your apex and side seals to use most synthetics...
The only reason not to use a synthetic oil in a rotary is cost. There is no other reason. If you can't afford it, don't use it, other wise a good quality synthetic will be better for your motor in the long run.
Other notes:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and used synthetic oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Redline, Amsoil and Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for twenty plus years with excellent results.
The Speedsource 2 rotor and 3 rotor RX-8 race cars that have won their class in the Daytona 24 hours, 4 out of the last 5 years using Castrol Syntec.
11-24-08, 12:13 PM
#28
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
word up icemark...I know the old "synthetic VS conventionals" debate is a touchy subject on this board. but I was just thinking (assuming, and you know what they say about ASSumption) that if you're premixing then you need not worry about how well the oil you choose to use burns or effects the apexs since your engine really wouldn't be, or well shouldn't be, consuming very much if any oil anyways. and now that I'm probably gonna be premixing I will more than likely start using some kind of synthetic once I rebuild and install my original 12a. although, i think im gonna stick with what i've been using on this motor since it is whats been used in it for the most part so far.
Now, if you have blocked off the factory MOP, then you will be less concerned with the type of oil used in the motor (you might not care if you use a higher ash ratio oil to save a couple of bucks for example), but really the most important part of the oil is how it treats the bearings and how it cools the motor (30-35% of the cooling in a rotary engine is done by the oil).
So just because you chose to pre-mix, there really is no correlation to using a good quality oil for the engine. And in fact a poor quality pre-mix (such as often sold in Motorcycle shops) will actually result in more build up in the combustion chamber and more leakage through bypass, making the requirement of a good quality motor oil even more important.
What do you think about switching to a synthetic after many miles on a convetional? do you think this would be advisable, I mean I know on a lot of higher mileage piston engines they say that if you've ran conventionals for 100,000+ miles it is not wise to switch to synthetics as they actually work "too good" as far as how well they clean and lubricate the engine. I know everyone has heard stories of people switching to mobile 1 or a similar synthetic and all of a sudden their high mileage engine is burning, leaking and consuming more oil than before..whats your take icemark?....
However really in the last 20 years, Mobil1, Redline, Amsoils and others have formulated their synthetic oils with seal life in mind and have modified the additives to specifically address those old issues.
My Tacoma V6 for example used conventional oil for its first 77K miles, and then I switched over to Mobil1 in it since I was using it to go to the mountains in the winter for skiing and 5 day a week day to day heavy traffic driving (1000 - 1200 miles a month was not uncommon). No leaks appeared, oil consumption did not go up, compression did not go down, and oil pressure did not change. The only thing that did change is that I went up about 1.5 MPG. At the time in California gas prices were double what they are now, so just changing to a synthetic paid back with the added mileage in no time.
Now I am not saying that same thing will happen with a rotary engine, but Royal Purple does claim a 1-2% increase in power when using their engine oil.
Regardless, seal issues or build up is really a thing of the past and has not been an issue with synthetics in near 20 years- despite the myth that such issues appear has been going on that long.
Now remember although synthetics do offer more reliable oil viscosity, sheer strength and protection, regular oil changes still need to be performed. Despite oil manufactures saying that synthetic oils will last longer, unless you are willing to do oil testing and see when your car really needs an oil change you should stick to the manufactures guidelines at worst, and 3000-5000 miles oil changes at best.
Now oil testing will tell you exactly when you need to change your oil, many people don't have the inclination to do it. My Tacoma interesting enough went from conventional oil changes every 5000 miles to around 8000-9000 miles with the synthetic. But this was only determined by actual oil testing. Taking a sample and sending it off to see how contaminated and what break down there was. Without this testing, 5000 miles would still have been the recommended change point.
With my RX-8, I change the oil at every 5000 miles, because I only have had sent in 2 tests so far, but once I see the pattern of when the oil starts breaking down, I will adjust that mileage accordingly.
11-24-08, 08:33 PM
#30
"81 RX-7
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Easton,PA
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
synthetic oil is good but it doesn't burn as good as regular oil. The only problem with synthetic is if your engine has a weak spot and is about to start leaking oil synthetics going to find that weak spot and start leaking. That's what that oil was made for.
11-24-08, 10:43 PM
#31
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
yep, I guess you just forgot to read this thread before posting since every single thing you said is wrong and already covered in this thread
11-25-08, 10:59 AM
#33
Full Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: huntsville AL
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
word. so any recomendations on oil selection for those of us premixing with a removed and blocked off MOP? I know we want atleast TCW-3 2 cycle oil. And are there any brands out there that we should avoid like the plague. thanks again.
11-25-08, 01:58 PM
#34
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Unlike conventional and synthetic motor oils, 2 stroke oils do not have a quality rating.
So I generally start with 2 stroke oils designed for fuel injected vehicles (it will say that on the label) and TC-W3 Standard.
So what does this standard mean? Since the vast majority of 2 cycle oils that would be suitable for the rotary engine would have this rating let’s examine it’s requirements.
The NMMA TCW3 standard was designed for outboard motors (Mercury, OMC, Yamaha etc.). A couple characteristics of these motors is they usually limit their max RPM’s to 6800 and have serious cooking capacity. They also must be able to operate at low RPM’s for long periods of time without fouling up the spark plugs.
NMMA licenses those two cycle lubricants that meet the stringent performance tests conducted by a sanctioned laboratory approved by NMMA to conduct the tests.
The tests include varied bench tests for fluidity, lubricity, viscosity, etc., plus the oil must meet minimum ring sticking and carbon build up on pistons in engine tests. The engine tests include one BRP 40 hp, one Johnson 70 hp, and two consecutive Mercury 15 hp tests and two lubricity tests. The tests are run for 100 hours each and the engines are stopped every ten hours for inspection. The chemical make up of the TC-W3® oils vary due to the various additive packages involved with each oil brand. Accordingly, it's a performance based qualifications program. The testing process is comprehensive and expensive, but worth the outcome for consumers and manufacturers.
Now, the biggest issue is that each manufacture may put in additional additives that change how the oil works. These are Detergents/Dispersants, Antiwear agents, Biodegradability components and antioxidants.
Now for our use, we would want an oil that was ash-less or near ash-less, and we of course could care less about Biodegradability and antioxidants (as our exhaust does not vent into water like a boat) so. Also typically most Antiwear agents are the same as motor oil (Zinc based compounds) that really only come into play if there is severe metal to metal contact with no film strength. So if our motor is in good condition, they are also not needed.
So based on that, go shopping for a good 2 stroke that hopefully meets the TCW3 standard, is for fuel injection, and is a low or ashless formula, and that is multi-purpose (meaning it can be used in water cooled and air cooled engines). Water cooled engines are like boats, and water craft as well as bigger bike engines, and air cooled are chain saws and most bikes. Now here is where the multi-purpose comes in. Water craft typically are high torque but low steady and regular engine speed, while bikes and chain saws have RPM’s change quickly and heavy loads on the motor are seen.
I personally like both the Castrol (Castrol TTS - Fully Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil and the Castrol Super Outboard 2) and Mobil1 (Mobil 1 MX2T (has a wild red color and really different smell) also sometimes found as Mobil 1 2T) ashless two strokes, as well as the old Walmart 2 stroke (blue tinted- the newer stuff is no longer TCW3 and is the color of conventional motor oil).
I do not recommend "rotary engine designed" Idemitsu pre-mix unless you are running it only through the gas tank (in other words do not use it as a direct feed through a RA or Sohn MOP adapter) as it is designed to go through your fuel system and thus has various additives that allow it to survive in gasoline as well as detergents to clean it. But Idemitsu is very expensive.
If you are direct injecting through a RA or Sohn adapter then Castrol 2T or again the Mobil 1 2T would be my choices.
Hope this helps, part of it was taken from Flashwing's break down of oils on the RX-8 club as well as my own personal input and choices.
11-25-08, 11:30 PM
#36
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: south jersey
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oil
well that is a tough one. We are talking about pre-mix type now, right???
Unlike conventional and synthetic motor oils, 2 stroke oils do not have a quality rating.
So I generally start with 2 stroke oils designed for fuel injected vehicles (it will say that on the label) and TC-W3 Standard.
So what does this standard mean? Since the vast majority of 2 cycle oils that would be suitable for the rotary engine would have this rating let’s examine it’s requirements.
The NMMA TCW3 standard was designed for outboard motors (Mercury, OMC, Yamaha etc.). A couple characteristics of these motors is they usually limit their max RPM’s to 6800 and have serious cooking capacity. They also must be able to operate at low RPM’s for long periods of time without fouling up the spark plugs.
NMMA licenses those two cycle lubricants that meet the stringent performance tests conducted by a sanctioned laboratory approved by NMMA to conduct the tests.
The tests include varied bench tests for fluidity, lubricity, viscosity, etc., plus the oil must meet minimum ring sticking and carbon build up on pistons in engine tests. The engine tests include one BRP 40 hp, one Johnson 70 hp, and two consecutive Mercury 15 hp tests and two lubricity tests. The tests are run for 100 hours each and the engines are stopped every ten hours for inspection. The chemical make up of the TC-W3® oils vary due to the various additive packages involved with each oil brand. Accordingly, it's a performance based qualifications program. The testing process is comprehensive and expensive, but worth the outcome for consumers and manufacturers.
Now, the biggest issue is that each manufacture may put in additional additives that change how the oil works. These are Detergents/Dispersants, Antiwear agents, Biodegradability components and antioxidants.
Now for our use, we would want an oil that was ash-less or near ash-less, and we of course could care less about Biodegradability and antioxidants (as our exhaust does not vent into water like a boat) so. Also typically most Antiwear agents are the same as motor oil (Zinc based compounds) that really only come into play if there is severe metal to metal contact with no film strength. So if our motor is in good condition, they are also not needed.
So based on that, go shopping for a good 2 stroke that hopefully meets the TCW3 standard, is for fuel injection, and is a low or ashless formula, and that is multi-purpose (meaning it can be used in water cooled and air cooled engines). Water cooled engines are like boats, and water craft as well as bigger bike engines, and air cooled are chain saws and most bikes. Now here is where the multi-purpose comes in. Water craft typically are high torque but low steady and regular engine speed, while bikes and chain saws have RPM’s change quickly and heavy loads on the motor are seen.
I personally like both the Castrol (Castrol TTS - Fully Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil and the Castrol Super Outboard 2) and Mobil1 (Mobil 1 MX2T (has a wild red color and really different smell) also sometimes found as Mobil 1 2T) ashless two strokes, as well as the old Walmart 2 stroke (blue tinted- the newer stuff is no longer TCW3 and is the color of conventional motor oil).
I do not recommend "rotary engine designed" Idemitsu pre-mix unless you are running it only through the gas tank (in other words do not use it as a direct feed through a RA or Sohn MOP adapter) as it is designed to go through your fuel system and thus has various additives that allow it to survive in gasoline as well as detergents to clean it. But Idemitsu is very expensive.
If you are direct injecting through a RA or Sohn adapter then Castrol 2T or again the Mobil 1 2T would be my choices.
Hope this helps, part of it was taken from Flashwing's break down of oils on the RX-8 club as well as my own personal input and choices.
Unlike conventional and synthetic motor oils, 2 stroke oils do not have a quality rating.
So I generally start with 2 stroke oils designed for fuel injected vehicles (it will say that on the label) and TC-W3 Standard.
So what does this standard mean? Since the vast majority of 2 cycle oils that would be suitable for the rotary engine would have this rating let’s examine it’s requirements.
The NMMA TCW3 standard was designed for outboard motors (Mercury, OMC, Yamaha etc.). A couple characteristics of these motors is they usually limit their max RPM’s to 6800 and have serious cooking capacity. They also must be able to operate at low RPM’s for long periods of time without fouling up the spark plugs.
NMMA licenses those two cycle lubricants that meet the stringent performance tests conducted by a sanctioned laboratory approved by NMMA to conduct the tests.
The tests include varied bench tests for fluidity, lubricity, viscosity, etc., plus the oil must meet minimum ring sticking and carbon build up on pistons in engine tests. The engine tests include one BRP 40 hp, one Johnson 70 hp, and two consecutive Mercury 15 hp tests and two lubricity tests. The tests are run for 100 hours each and the engines are stopped every ten hours for inspection. The chemical make up of the TC-W3® oils vary due to the various additive packages involved with each oil brand. Accordingly, it's a performance based qualifications program. The testing process is comprehensive and expensive, but worth the outcome for consumers and manufacturers.
Now, the biggest issue is that each manufacture may put in additional additives that change how the oil works. These are Detergents/Dispersants, Antiwear agents, Biodegradability components and antioxidants.
Now for our use, we would want an oil that was ash-less or near ash-less, and we of course could care less about Biodegradability and antioxidants (as our exhaust does not vent into water like a boat) so. Also typically most Antiwear agents are the same as motor oil (Zinc based compounds) that really only come into play if there is severe metal to metal contact with no film strength. So if our motor is in good condition, they are also not needed.
So based on that, go shopping for a good 2 stroke that hopefully meets the TCW3 standard, is for fuel injection, and is a low or ashless formula, and that is multi-purpose (meaning it can be used in water cooled and air cooled engines). Water cooled engines are like boats, and water craft as well as bigger bike engines, and air cooled are chain saws and most bikes. Now here is where the multi-purpose comes in. Water craft typically are high torque but low steady and regular engine speed, while bikes and chain saws have RPM’s change quickly and heavy loads on the motor are seen.
I personally like both the Castrol (Castrol TTS - Fully Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil and the Castrol Super Outboard 2) and Mobil1 (Mobil 1 MX2T (has a wild red color and really different smell) also sometimes found as Mobil 1 2T) ashless two strokes, as well as the old Walmart 2 stroke (blue tinted- the newer stuff is no longer TCW3 and is the color of conventional motor oil).
I do not recommend "rotary engine designed" Idemitsu pre-mix unless you are running it only through the gas tank (in other words do not use it as a direct feed through a RA or Sohn MOP adapter) as it is designed to go through your fuel system and thus has various additives that allow it to survive in gasoline as well as detergents to clean it. But Idemitsu is very expensive.
If you are direct injecting through a RA or Sohn adapter then Castrol 2T or again the Mobil 1 2T would be my choices.
Hope this helps, part of it was taken from Flashwing's break down of oils on the RX-8 club as well as my own personal input and choices.
Great information, thanks for posting all that that.
11-26-08, 02:05 AM
#37
Full Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: huntsville AL
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah, wow man good info. thanks again. i think i'm going to try to find some of the castrol or mobile 1 2-stroke stuff. i didn't see it last time i was at a parts store but next i'll be sure i ask.
Last edited by mortiky; 11-26-08 at 02:07 AM.
11-26-08, 02:33 AM
#38
I just wanted to input that I just went to Walmart and bought TC-W3 Supertech brand 2-stroke (the blue-tinted one). So they do still sell them. I believe that I read somewhere the Supertech oil products are made by Penzoil/Quakerstate. I use a 0.5oz premix/1.0gal gasoline ratio
11-27-08, 09:04 AM
#39
Racing is life!
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Major props to Icemark. Good work
I've been an Amsoil dealer since 1981, and I agree with everything stated. I've had good luck with the Amsoil Dominator used as premix. Several of my racing buddies use the Walmart 2-cycle both you, and boyee mention.For the trans I would use Redline MT, or MT-90 or Amsoil Manual Trans fluid (GL-4),
for the diff, I would recommend the Redline or Amsoil gear lube. Lots of guys use the Mobil one gear lube with good results as well. I recommend you stick with a GL-4 lubricant in the transmission, while using a gear oil designed for LSD in the diff. Maybe Icemark will give us his opinion of transmissions and diff oils.
11-27-08, 12:43 PM
#40
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
For the trans I would use Redline MT, or MT-90 or Amsoil Manual Trans fluid (GL-4),
for the diff, I would recommend the Redline or Amsoil gear lube. Lots of guys use the Mobil one gear lube with good results as well. I recommend you stick with a GL-4 lubricant in the transmission, while using a gear oil designed for LSD in the diff. Maybe Icemark will give us his opinion of transmissions and diff oils.
for the diff, I would recommend the Redline or Amsoil gear lube. Lots of guys use the Mobil one gear lube with good results as well. I recommend you stick with a GL-4 lubricant in the transmission, while using a gear oil designed for LSD in the diff. Maybe Icemark will give us his opinion of transmissions and diff oils.
Lets talk a little about tranny/gear lubes, and (I will cover rear end lubes later) about that GL rating and how it works.
API (American Petroleum Institute) service classifications range from GL-1 through GL-5, with the number indicating level of service severity. GL-1 is the least severe, and its requirements are normally satisfied with motor oil. GL-2 requirements are met with rust and oxidation inhibited oils. GL-3 through GL-5 require the addition of extreme pressure (EP) additives, with higher GL numbers indicating a higher level of EP additive. That is the only difference.
GL-4 gear lubes have half the extreme pressure additives of GL-5 lubes... it does not change anything with how slippery a gear oil is.
According to the API: GL-4 is spec'd for Manual transmissions, spiral bevel and hypoid gears in moderate service, while GL-5 is spec'd for moderate and severe service on hypoid and other types of gears and may also be used in manual transmissions.
EP additives work by forming wear-resistant compounds with the metal of the gear tooth surface. As the gears mesh, these compounds shield the gear teeth from direct metal-to-metal contact that would cause wear and damage to the gears. If too little of the active additive is present, proper protection would be compromised. Too much of this additive could cause excessive chemical corrosion of the gear surface. If an API GL-5 gear oil is used in a application where API GL-4 gear oil is called for, chemical corrosion of "yellow metal" components may occur, such as bronze synchronizers, brass bushings, etc. This may lead to shifting difficulties or shortened equipment life.
Now where that hits us, is that the both the Mazda M type (most non turbo RX-7's from SA through FC models) and the R type (RX-3,REPU, and all Turbos) transmissions have brass or bronze syncro's. So using a GL-5 in our transmissions will result in chemical corrosion of those syncros. Also toss in that gear oil that overheats (such as 250F+) most of the gear lubes start breaking down, creating high amounts of sulfuric acid entwined in the lube- a GL-5 oil and overheated gear lube means a tranny that won't shift without grinding in short order.
So now lets look at brands and how they hold up. Because the trannies and rear ends have metal to metal contact, it is important that the gear lube has sufficient shear strength through out its life. This is the thin film that protects the metal from actually rubbing on a microscopic level. A poor film shear strength and the gear lube does not protect anything.
What this shows:
Ideally a good quality gear oil will be in the gray area before and after the test. Lucas 75/90 Synthetic, at 22.35 cSt, and Royal Purple Max-Gear 75W-90, at 19.32 cSt, both exceed the maximum 18.49 cSt initial viscosity (red), failing the SAE J306 requirements for SAE 90 gear lubricants. All other gear lubricants were within the required high-temperature viscosity range prior to the KRL Shear Stability Test.
Viscosity measurements following the KRL Shear Stability Test revealed that seven gear lubes sheared down below the minimum viscosity requirements (orange), failing the shear stability requirements of the SAE J306. The two gear lubes with the largest viscosity loss, as reflected in the following graph, were Royal Purple, losing 40.6% of its viscosity, and Torco SGO Synthetic, losing 35.2% of its viscosity. Royal Purple was the only gear lube to fail both the initial viscosity requirements and the shear stability requirements. It started out too thick and ended up too thin.
So in other words, after 20 hours the royal purple and Lucas failed miserably and the Pennsoil, Mobil1, Mopar and GM oils, and Torco all lost so much viscosity that they really were not even the same weight oil anymore.
Full test here: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2457.pdf
So for a RX-7 tranny, I am looking at either Redline MT-90, Amsoil Severe for synthetics and for a non synthetic Castrol Hypoly (since the Valvoline are GL-5).
Anyway, a few things to remember:
All better quality gear lubes need a break in period (usually 50 to 150 miles-depending on driving conditions). It take a bit to squeeze the old oil surfaces out and to impregnate the new oil surface in.
It is not like engine oil that is constantly being forced to circulate, gear lube must be lifted into the gears by other gears that are typically submerged.
That is why I am always skeptical about people that claim Brand X oil solved all their shifting issues or rear end noise issues as soon as the changed it and just drove around the block.
and as cpa7man reminds everyone that my posts on oils are indeed my opinion based on what has worked for me. By no means are they empirical THIS WHAT YOU MUST USE recommendations. in 25 years of Mazda ownership and working on them, this is what has worked for me... it doesn't mean that it will work perfect for you or that you won't find something better.
11-28-08, 01:09 AM
#43
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New owner of a 93 FD and my 1st post. : )
Icemark:
>Mobil 1 MX2T (has a wild red color and really different smell) also sometimes found as Mobil 1 2T
Went looking for this oil and forum after forum of dirtbikers are sulking at this product's discontinuation. If they are out there, would you mind sharing sources that still stock mobil mx2t?
Fount the following referenced in a few forums, but no original trusted source (posts dated 2006).
While the ASTM D2670 test is only one test, the results did encourage checking out BG snowmobile premix. Seems to be an ashless hi-fi product. Anyone try this BG snowmobile oil as a premix?
2-Stroke Cycle Snowmobile Oils
Wear Properties of Fluid Lubricants
Falex Pin and Vee Block Method
ASTM D2670
This is a comparison of anti-wear properties of popular 2 stroke snowmobile oils. This is an American Society for Testing Materials test that is a lubricant industry standard. This particular test incorporates 500 lbs of pressure on a steel pin and vee block for duration of 3.5 hours. There is a 5-minute break-in period with a 300 pound load. The overall wear is expressed in milligrams of lost metal.
The Results were as follows
BG Hi-Performance Snowmobile Oil, Part No. 784S 15.2
Bel-Ray MC-1 47.8
Bombardier XP-SII 66.3
Polaris Premium Gold Synthetic 82.5
Artic Cat Synthetic APV 112.9
Redline 2-Stroke Racing Oil 144.3
Maxima Castor 927 156.4
These Products failed to reach the required testing pressure of 500 pounds.
• Amsoil High Performance 2-Cycle Injector Oil
• Amsoil Series 2000 2-Cycle Racing Oil
• Artic Cat Extreme
• Bombardier Injection Oil
• Fuchs Silcolene Comp 2 Pre Mix
• Klotz Techniplate Snowmobile Oil
• Klotz Techniplate R-50 Racing Oil
• Torco GP-7 Two Stoke Racing Oil
• Yamalube 2-R Racing Oil
This Oil failed 90 minutes into the test.
• Motul 800 Factory Line
This Oil failed 100 minutes into the test.
* Polaris Premium 2-Cycle
While researching premix, I stumbled upon this exhaustive gear oil test document (note: from 2007 and comissioned by amsoil ). Amsoil was often nearly, but not the best.
http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/Ge...te%20Paper.pdf
Icemark:
>Mobil 1 MX2T (has a wild red color and really different smell) also sometimes found as Mobil 1 2T
Went looking for this oil and forum after forum of dirtbikers are sulking at this product's discontinuation. If they are out there, would you mind sharing sources that still stock mobil mx2t?
Fount the following referenced in a few forums, but no original trusted source (posts dated 2006).
While the ASTM D2670 test is only one test, the results did encourage checking out BG snowmobile premix. Seems to be an ashless hi-fi product. Anyone try this BG snowmobile oil as a premix?
2-Stroke Cycle Snowmobile Oils
Wear Properties of Fluid Lubricants
Falex Pin and Vee Block Method
ASTM D2670
This is a comparison of anti-wear properties of popular 2 stroke snowmobile oils. This is an American Society for Testing Materials test that is a lubricant industry standard. This particular test incorporates 500 lbs of pressure on a steel pin and vee block for duration of 3.5 hours. There is a 5-minute break-in period with a 300 pound load. The overall wear is expressed in milligrams of lost metal.
The Results were as follows
BG Hi-Performance Snowmobile Oil, Part No. 784S 15.2
Bel-Ray MC-1 47.8
Bombardier XP-SII 66.3
Polaris Premium Gold Synthetic 82.5
Artic Cat Synthetic APV 112.9
Redline 2-Stroke Racing Oil 144.3
Maxima Castor 927 156.4
These Products failed to reach the required testing pressure of 500 pounds.
• Amsoil High Performance 2-Cycle Injector Oil
• Amsoil Series 2000 2-Cycle Racing Oil
• Artic Cat Extreme
• Bombardier Injection Oil
• Fuchs Silcolene Comp 2 Pre Mix
• Klotz Techniplate Snowmobile Oil
• Klotz Techniplate R-50 Racing Oil
• Torco GP-7 Two Stoke Racing Oil
• Yamalube 2-R Racing Oil
This Oil failed 90 minutes into the test.
• Motul 800 Factory Line
This Oil failed 100 minutes into the test.
* Polaris Premium 2-Cycle
While researching premix, I stumbled upon this exhaustive gear oil test document (note: from 2007 and comissioned by amsoil ). Amsoil was often nearly, but not the best.
http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/Ge...te%20Paper.pdf
11-28-08, 03:37 PM
#45
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
New owner of a 93 FD and my 1st post. : )
Icemark:
>Mobil 1 MX2T (has a wild red color and really different smell) also sometimes found as Mobil 1 2T
Went looking for this oil and forum after forum of dirtbikers are sulking at this product's discontinuation. If they are out there, would you mind sharing sources that still stock mobil mx2t?
Icemark:
>Mobil 1 MX2T (has a wild red color and really different smell) also sometimes found as Mobil 1 2T
Went looking for this oil and forum after forum of dirtbikers are sulking at this product's discontinuation. If they are out there, would you mind sharing sources that still stock mobil mx2t?
Fount the following referenced in a few forums, but no original trusted source (posts dated 2006).
While the ASTM D2670 test is only one test, the results did encourage checking out BG snowmobile premix. Seems to be an ashless hi-fi product. Anyone try this BG snowmobile oil as a premix?
While the ASTM D2670 test is only one test, the results did encourage checking out BG snowmobile premix. Seems to be an ashless hi-fi product. Anyone try this BG snowmobile oil as a premix?
While researching premix, I stumbled upon this exhaustive gear oil test document (note: from 2007 and comissioned by amsoil ). Amsoil was often nearly, but not the best.
http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/Ge...te%20Paper.pdf
http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/Ge...te%20Paper.pdf
12-23-08, 10:34 PM
#49
"81 RX-7
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Easton,PA
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Using Synthetic Oils in Rotary Engines
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has got to be one of the most frequently asked questions ever!
Here is our answer:
The Rotary engine has an oil injection system that injects small amounts of oil into either the intake tract, carb, or rotor housing (depending on year/model). This is needed to lubricate the various internal seals and surfaces.
The injected oil MUST BURN, and must burn clean. The root answer to the question is that not ALL synthetic oils burn, and not ALL of them burn clean. (Idemitsu Rotary Engine Oil is the only known exception - see below)
The ones that do not burn accumulate until they foul the spark plugs.
The ones that do not burn clean can leave residues of various substances (like ash? plastic? non-organic sand?) that accumulate until the spark plugs foul, or a seal sticks -- could be apex seal, side seal, corner seal, or oil control ring. The normal consequence of a stuck seal is an engine tear down.
In the many years we have been involved in rotary engines, we have NEVER had a problem with GOOD petroleum based oils. They work fine! They are less expensive than synthetics. (We use Castrol 20-50 GTX). They burn clean, etc. etc.
The problem with answering the original question is that it is NOT a simple yes or no. We DO simplify it to a "NO", but that is because we do NOT know whether the specific brand of synthetic the customer has in mind will work. AND, if it does not work, how long will it be before the damage shows up, and how bad will the damage be? Maybe it will take 10,000 miles, maybe 50,000 miles?? Maybe the engine will fail due to something unrelated to the oil, and there won't be enough left to determine that there was damage from the oil.
WE are not willing to take that gamble, are you ?
Then, take a minute to think of WHY you want to use a synthetic. If a rotary engine (properly maintained, oil changes at 3K intervals, etc.) can still be running fine at over 200,000 miles, the engine does not need any more cooling, the gas milage will not be any better, etc. etc. WHY do you want to spend more $$ and gamble on engine and/or spark plug damage?
We are not chemists, and we do not have the time, $$'s, nor inclination to do 100K mile tests of various synthetics in rotary engines.
The only exception to the above answer is with Idemitsu Synthetic Rotary Engine Oil. Idemitsu has been making synthetic oil specifically for the rotary engine for decades. They have only recently come to the US and we are happy to be able to sell it. We've known about it since the beginning, but until recently, it's only been available in Japan. Click here to go to our oil page.
We DO use Neo synthetic in the transmissions and rear ends with great results.
Anyway - that is the MAZDATRIX version of the synthetic question.
