TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

Specs: FB ‘84 GSL, 5 speed; all stock except radio and speakers.

History:
My father was the original owner; I bought it from him for $5.00. He kept every receipt and even had the original 1984 showroom catalog in mint condition. Due to leaking oil he had an Atkins remanufactured 12A installed in 1997 at 128,000. I took over in 2002 at 133,000, it now has 160,000.
For the past 5-6 years it has been leaking a bit of oil, more of a nuisance than anything. This past summer the leaking accelerated, but not a real significant drop in level.
In September I noticed gas dripping from the carb and oil on the top of the engine by the 12A on each rotor housing. Then I found the Rx7 Club and started searching threads.
I had the carb off once before to replace the anti-afterburn value, so I order a carb kit. Replaced the accelerator pump diaphragm, and all was well except the oil on the top, and down the sides.

Current issue:
One day on the way to work, as soon as the choke disengaged, it ran very rough. I parked & opened the hood, and then smoke started to come out from around the bell-housing. I turned off the engine for time to think.
It started it back up, but it ran very rough. Got it home, only 2 miles.
That night I started it up and it blew out a giant cloud of obnoxious smelling white smoke.
Back to this place for more research and the most likely suspect was failure of the coolant O-rings on the intake manifold. Not knowing what I would find, I took the carb off first. I could wipe off the visible part of the intake manifold gasket with my finger, it simply fell apart. Took off the intake manifold (thanks for the suggestion to on the two hidden bottom nuts) and the gasket was mush except at the far ends. Cleaned off every mating surface and replaced the O-rings and the intake manifold gasket.

Test start:
It still ran very rough, but this time the big cloud of smoke was no longer white, but grey. Smelled of burning oil. I don’t think I could smell the oil burning before because the burning coolant was overpowering. Shut it off and pushed it back into the garage.

Other items:
No indication on temp gauge of every overheating.
Oil leaking is now excessive. Test start (above) for 10 minutes produced two small oil puddles below both sides near the rear of the engine.
Before going after the intake gasket, I did a bounce compression test (engine cold). Front at 90 PSI and even on all three sides. Rear at 89-90 and even on all three sides. There was oil on the leading rear spark plug.
I believe the smoke from the bell-housing was the result of oil on the rubber exhaust hangers which was causing them to smoke and actually melt.
Some of the oil pan gasket bolts could be turned by fingers.
The two leading sparkplugs are dry-black. Pictures of major areas of oil are attached.

I’m at a crossroads. I’ve had a good 10 years with the car. The body is in very good condition, repainted to the original color summer 2011. Interior is good, but not new. But, I have limited time, money and tools. Ideally I would get a remanufactured from Atkins, but at $4000 plus shipping and extras, that may be a hard sell for the family. As it is now is described as a “roller” I don’t have that much too loose by attempting a rebuild myself. (I don’t drive it in the winter due to salted roads and if I can finish it by say July, which would be OK.) I have the Atkins rebuild video, the Hanes book, and everyone here for advice; I think if I take my time I can do this. But that may be more than what I can take on, and I’m not even sure I can do it correctly or know which parts I would need to purchase.

Questions:
I’m fairly certain a rebuild or a remanufactured are my only options, unless someone has a great idea I have not unearthed. Any suggestions?

Has anyone experienced this? If so, what was your outcome?

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

Sorry,no offense,I fell asleep.
Do you have Cliff notes?

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.

iamsisyphus

Go ahead and rebuild it. There are many members how have done so with nothing more than you have available to you. Also, being carborated, it may be a little easier.

I'm not much of a mechanic, but I find if I post short, specific questions, the support on this forum is really good.

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. Retry:

Would the Dowel Pin O Rings, besides accounting for the puddles on top, account for the the external oil leaks I'm seeing?
Could their failure also lead to burning oil?

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

they could. the puddles have to leak somewhere when they get big enough. however, you did mention something about the oil pan bolts being loose and i tend to think the puddles on the floor would more likely be from the leaking pan. the joints in the proximal part of exhaust system may also be leaky.

not likely. they external to any working chamber. burning oil usually points to the oil seals on the rotor(s).

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

I tighten the pan bolts after the initial White-Smoke test. The second 10-minute test of Gray-Smoke (post intake manifold & O-ring replacement) produced more oil above the oil pan.

I was hoping it was not the oil seals on the rotors, but that makes perfect sense.

Thank you. I need to think and plan what comes next.
(I would give it to Goodwill if it wasn't such a blast to drive.)

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

Just wondering if this engine has the bee hive oil cooler as it is prone to leakage in that area.

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

I believe what I have might be a bee hive oil cooler.

Upper-right in attached image.

Yes, its a mess below.

(I was not thrilled when my 74 Rx3 refused to go home one day in '87. But it was its time. I'm not inclined to give up on an 84 Rx7 at this point.)

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to clean off as much of the oil as I can and run it again for a test. It might be useful to isolate the leak locations prior to removing the engine.

(To add insult to injury, when checking if all the oil had drain, prior to the intake manifold removal, there was a new puddle on the garage floor. The break master cylinder decided to spring a leak and drain itself out. Been there before, but really?)

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

Watch that brake fluid..it eats paint.

Now Tim,If it turns out to be that oil cooler,there is a 1st gen mod where they take the Beehive cooler and replace the oil cooling system using a sec gen front mounted oil cooler.
If Diaboloical1 is reading this, he may be able to guide you to that info or even tell you more on it.

I'm a 2nd gen guy,so I was just browsing..lol!..Good luck to ya.

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. I bought a rebuilt master cylinder along with all the previous gaskets. Yup, already cleaned up the brake fluid mess.

As it appears the engine shall come out, installing the front mounted oil cooler might be easier with the extra room.

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

ahem..once you get the old engine out,you'd be surprised at what you can fit in that hole..

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

it's been my experience that the beehive doesn't leak at the pedestal any more than front mount cars. those seals under the pedestal leak when they have come to end of their lives: beehive or not. that said, i'm trying to reconcile 17 years versus 27,000 miles and gauge just how abnormal all these leaks are - especially since it seems like you have bad oil seals to boot. at this point, i think it's a bit premature to be talking conversion to the radiator-type oil cooler unless, of course, you simply want to.

it will be interesting to see the condition of things when you get the engine out. please take some good photos from every angle when it's out.

on a side note, i responded to an oil leak-thread some time ago. i'm going to try to find it and link it here. it seems pretty clear than even if you locate and repair the external leaks, that you're still on the road to a rebuild, but i think it would still be relevant.

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

So the question in the back of my mind all day was "How to balance costs vs. time vs. experience to rebuild so it actually will work."
No time + cash - experience = purchase a 12A from Atkins.
Time - cash + experience = pull it out and dig in.
No time - cash - experience = fix one of the variables then proceed.

One way or the other the engine must come out.

Thanks.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

here you go

https://www.rx7club.com/new-member-r...leaks-1040842/

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

based on what you said in your original post, time is your single BEST asset right now. you mentioned getting it done by July and that goes a long way toward gaining experience and even getting your pockets right.

if you play your cards right, you can rebuild the engine on shoestring budget. don't get me wrong, i'm not suggesting that you're going to rebuild this thing with $99 and some duct tape, but you don't have to spend $1500 either.

don't buy a single thing until you get it out, pull it apart, inspect things, clean everything up and spec your hard parts. then you can start spending money as needed.

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

1. the filter pedestal/base – No, don’t think so, its dry
2. the oil pan and/or the level sender seal --- Yes, oil pan for sure
3. the cooler lines (if you have the air cooler); in my experience, I can honestly say that I haven't had the occasion to see the beehive line leak unless it had been twisted and cracked -- No sign of oil leaking on the beehive oil cooler
4. the O-rings around the engine dowels – Yes absolutely
5. occasionally the front main seal will weep, but I honestly haven't come across a geiser-like leak until the Renesis engines - but I suppose it does happen -- NA.
6. the SE is sort of a special case, because the cooler itself is prone to cracking around where the lines attach to it, so it will leak (and if you're unaware, it will be VERY hard to catch! -- NA.
7. the front cover gasket -- Likely. That might account for the top middle shot in the previously attached image.

TimWilbers

iTrader: (1)

New twist.
Prior to test starting after replacing the intake manifold gasket, I filled up the radiator . I went out tonight to recheck the compression (bounce, all three faces, front & rear at 89 PSI) but first checked the radiator, is was down 1/2 inch, filled it up. After checking the compression, I opened the radiator and saw what appeared to be small oil droplets. Image attached.

What might have failed to allow oil into the coolant?