3 pcs Apex seal
02-18-13, 02:31 PM
#26
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i don't necessarily agree that softer seals will save the housings but they will not break. i have seen less wear from more brittle materials like the OEM seals than the softer seals.
note that i'm not saying the softer seals will destroy a housing but they may cause some lateral striations that will need to be cleaned up during another rebuild. the good thing about the indestructable seals is the engines will not leave you stranded or destroy more expensive parts where the more brittle seals will most definitely kill the rotor and a housing to unusable limits.
there has never been an easy answer as to which route to take but with people destroying rotors continuously eventually turbo parts will be as rare to find as good 12A housings. with softer seals at least you still have something left to work with at the end of the day. going forward we won't have many options like in the past with the FB's/old schools using FC/FD parts, we have the 13B-MSP(renesis) which is a horrible platform for turboing due to its extreme compression and lack of a peripheral exhaust port(when a seal goes in one of those engines the devastation is horrible because nothing can readily escape the engine).
i have seen the striations from every type of seal however(even OEM seals can cause it), no definitive cause as to why. foreign debris or lack of internal seal lubrication is generally the accepted cause. some seal alloys probably cause it more readily than others as well, but with every seal material being proprietary and secretive no one can really know. ceramic and carbon seals being the only exception to the rule but they are only ideal for non force inducted engines and specific applications.
note that i'm not saying the softer seals will destroy a housing but they may cause some lateral striations that will need to be cleaned up during another rebuild. the good thing about the indestructable seals is the engines will not leave you stranded or destroy more expensive parts where the more brittle seals will most definitely kill the rotor and a housing to unusable limits.
there has never been an easy answer as to which route to take but with people destroying rotors continuously eventually turbo parts will be as rare to find as good 12A housings. with softer seals at least you still have something left to work with at the end of the day. going forward we won't have many options like in the past with the FB's/old schools using FC/FD parts, we have the 13B-MSP(renesis) which is a horrible platform for turboing due to its extreme compression and lack of a peripheral exhaust port(when a seal goes in one of those engines the devastation is horrible because nothing can readily escape the engine).
i have seen the striations from every type of seal however(even OEM seals can cause it), no definitive cause as to why. foreign debris or lack of internal seal lubrication is generally the accepted cause. some seal alloys probably cause it more readily than others as well, but with every seal material being proprietary and secretive no one can really know. ceramic and carbon seals being the only exception to the rule but they are only ideal for non force inducted engines and specific applications.
We just cut the ends on a fairly extreme angle and glued them together to the exact length . and installed just the same as factory ones.
these engines are subjected to all kinds of extremes , boiling over ,cold start ups with a ton of starting fluid . I know there is much more iron involved in these engines but never had any of these O rings fail . I've seen them so hot that the grease and oil on the outside of the engines would smoke some and of course would require engine work but never a failed O ring.
With high compression ratios even around 30 to 1 they never failed and that was longer ago than I care to remember
when I saw the way these Mazda oem O rings are assembled I think they are highly over rated . JMO Ben maybe you can shed a little light on the subject or anyone else that has input. Gerald m.
Last edited by gerald m; 02-18-13 at 02:38 PM.
02-18-13, 03:59 PM
#27
i stopped using OEM coolant seals years ago and build my own seals with that method.
you can also use a vulcanizing tool but they are expensive and the bonding agents i use hold up to the temps that a rotary engine should never see anyways.
i did also go through a period of using the teflon encapsulated seals but they tend to delaminate rather easily which compromises the seal, so i only use them in off road racing applications since they are still superior for reusability within reason. but the seals i put together i have reused numerous times with no issue through several year's time.
in fact i use almost all aftermarket seals with the same material because of it's durability, reusability, superior compression, oil/fuel/coolant resistance and operating temperature range. the only seals i don't put together are crank seals, OEM are cheap and work well.
i have always hated the laminated OEM coolant seals and their 1 time use lifespan. there have been a rare few occasions where i screwed up and had to disassemble an engine and if any one seal got screwed up it required a whole new set to be broken open leaving me with an incomplete set or order induvidual seals at increased rates, it got very irritating. it is also beneficial for other applications, such as 3 rotor engines.
of course i'm not going to go into too much detail. i spent a lot of time figuring out which material, bonding agents, size and shape of materials to use. in some cases even requiring re-rebuilds of the test engines.
although there is nothing wrong with OEM seals, they do the job well and for a long enough time but rebuilders are not using brand new parts, we're forced to use 25 year old parts with questionable life left in them.
you can also use a vulcanizing tool but they are expensive and the bonding agents i use hold up to the temps that a rotary engine should never see anyways.
i did also go through a period of using the teflon encapsulated seals but they tend to delaminate rather easily which compromises the seal, so i only use them in off road racing applications since they are still superior for reusability within reason. but the seals i put together i have reused numerous times with no issue through several year's time.
in fact i use almost all aftermarket seals with the same material because of it's durability, reusability, superior compression, oil/fuel/coolant resistance and operating temperature range. the only seals i don't put together are crank seals, OEM are cheap and work well.
i have always hated the laminated OEM coolant seals and their 1 time use lifespan. there have been a rare few occasions where i screwed up and had to disassemble an engine and if any one seal got screwed up it required a whole new set to be broken open leaving me with an incomplete set or order induvidual seals at increased rates, it got very irritating. it is also beneficial for other applications, such as 3 rotor engines.
of course i'm not going to go into too much detail. i spent a lot of time figuring out which material, bonding agents, size and shape of materials to use. in some cases even requiring re-rebuilds of the test engines.
although there is nothing wrong with OEM seals, they do the job well and for a long enough time but rebuilders are not using brand new parts, we're forced to use 25 year old parts with questionable life left in them.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-18-13 at 04:12 PM.
02-18-13, 05:10 PM
#28
FWIW I did my own rebuild going on 5 yrs (40k miles) ago with the help of an experienced friend. A coolant seal failure at 88k. In addition to the typical flaking at the edges, my OEM original housings had some grooving which the friend attributed to the 3 pc seals that were installed at the factory. I was told the housings were marginal but could be reused...but sprung for new housings anyway and re-installed OEM 2 pc seals.
I still have my old housings and like many others, following this guy's progress in hopes of having some way of economically re-habing them eventually. ---> https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-p...usings-939221/
At any rate, appreciate the input from RotaryEvolution. Next time....if there is one, I may be calling you.
I still have my old housings and like many others, following this guy's progress in hopes of having some way of economically re-habing them eventually. ---> https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-p...usings-939221/
At any rate, appreciate the input from RotaryEvolution. Next time....if there is one, I may be calling you.
02-18-13, 05:13 PM
#29
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Well that's not the answer I expected .,. I was thinking more on the line like Gerald m. you are crazier that a **** house rat . 
that's probably true anyway.
That is exactly what I am going to do with Engine #1 I don't think there is anything wrong with it seeing as I found the dreaded vacuum leak but I just want to take it apart and check things over and make sure rear rotor didn't get hurt with the bit of dust getting in . Actually I'm probably wasting my time but I just want to look see . From what I can see through the exhaust ports ( which by the way don't have na defusers )just an open port . the rotors are like mirrors and look like new. Maybe sometime when you are free for a bit you could get in touch with O ring sizes that you think should be used if you don't mind giving away your secrets . I'm solid I won't rat you out .
I found it wasn't as much a big deal on what the angle was to join the two ends but how straight the join was so there was 100 % of the o ring surface glued with no little edges protruding . Of course the reason I used an angle was to increase the area being glued and that was the only reason ..As always I appreciate the time Ben . Thanks
LEEFES87RX7 sorry for cutting in on your thread
that's probably true anyway. That is exactly what I am going to do with Engine #1 I don't think there is anything wrong with it seeing as I found the dreaded vacuum leak but I just want to take it apart and check things over and make sure rear rotor didn't get hurt with the bit of dust getting in . Actually I'm probably wasting my time but I just want to look see . From what I can see through the exhaust ports ( which by the way don't have na defusers )just an open port . the rotors are like mirrors and look like new. Maybe sometime when you are free for a bit you could get in touch with O ring sizes that you think should be used if you don't mind giving away your secrets . I'm solid I won't rat you out .
I found it wasn't as much a big deal on what the angle was to join the two ends but how straight the join was so there was 100 % of the o ring surface glued with no little edges protruding . Of course the reason I used an angle was to increase the area being glued and that was the only reason ..As always I appreciate the time Ben . Thanks
LEEFES87RX7 sorry for cutting in on your thread
02-18-13, 06:02 PM
#30
just PM me when you want the info.
the other reason for not using the vulcanizing technique is because i use shaped seal material and there is no vulcanizing dies that fit most square or rectangular o-rings.
the other reason for not using the vulcanizing technique is because i use shaped seal material and there is no vulcanizing dies that fit most square or rectangular o-rings.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-18-13 at 06:05 PM.
02-18-13, 06:13 PM
#31
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i don't necessarily agree that softer seals will save the housings but they will not break. i have seen less wear from more brittle materials like the OEM seals than the softer seals.
note that i'm not saying the softer seals will destroy a housing but they may cause some lateral striations that will need to be cleaned up during another rebuild. the good thing about the indestructable seals is the engines will not leave you stranded or destroy more expensive parts where the more brittle seals will most definitely kill the rotor and a housing to unusable limits.
there has never been an easy answer as to which route to take but with people destroying rotors continuously eventually turbo parts will be as rare to find as good 12A housings. with softer seals at least you still have something left to work with at the end of the day. going forward we won't have many options like in the past with the FB's/old schools using FC/FD parts, we have the 13B-MSP(renesis) which is a horrible platform for turboing due to its extreme compression and lack of a peripheral exhaust port(when a seal goes in one of those engines the devastation is horrible because nothing can readily escape the engine).
i have seen the striations from every type of seal however(even OEM seals can cause it), no definitive cause as to why. foreign debris or lack of internal seal lubrication is generally the accepted cause. some seal alloys probably cause it more readily than others as well, but with every seal material being proprietary and secretive no one can really know. ceramic and carbon seals being the only exception to the rule but they are only ideal for non force inducted engines and specific applications.
note that i'm not saying the softer seals will destroy a housing but they may cause some lateral striations that will need to be cleaned up during another rebuild. the good thing about the indestructable seals is the engines will not leave you stranded or destroy more expensive parts where the more brittle seals will most definitely kill the rotor and a housing to unusable limits.
there has never been an easy answer as to which route to take but with people destroying rotors continuously eventually turbo parts will be as rare to find as good 12A housings. with softer seals at least you still have something left to work with at the end of the day. going forward we won't have many options like in the past with the FB's/old schools using FC/FD parts, we have the 13B-MSP(renesis) which is a horrible platform for turboing due to its extreme compression and lack of a peripheral exhaust port(when a seal goes in one of those engines the devastation is horrible because nothing can readily escape the engine).
i have seen the striations from every type of seal however(even OEM seals can cause it), no definitive cause as to why. foreign debris or lack of internal seal lubrication is generally the accepted cause. some seal alloys probably cause it more readily than others as well, but with every seal material being proprietary and secretive no one can really know. ceramic and carbon seals being the only exception to the rule but they are only ideal for non force inducted engines and specific applications.
02-18-13, 06:45 PM
#32
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i don't necessarily agree that softer seals will save the housings but they will not break. i have seen less wear from more brittle materials like the OEM seals than the softer seals.
note that i'm not saying the softer seals will destroy a housing but they may cause some lateral striations that will need to be cleaned up during another rebuild. the good thing about the indestructable seals is the engines will not leave you stranded or destroy more expensive parts where the more brittle seals will most definitely kill the rotor and a housing to unusable limits.
there has never been an easy answer as to which route to take but with people destroying rotors continuously eventually turbo parts will be as rare to find as good 12A housings. with softer seals at least you still have something left to work with at the end of the day. going forward we won't have many options like in the past with the FB's/old schools using FC/FD parts, we have the 13B-MSP(renesis) which is a horrible platform for turboing due to its extreme compression and lack of a peripheral exhaust port(when a seal goes in one of those engines the devastation is horrible because nothing can readily escape the engine).
i have seen the striations from every type of seal however(even OEM seals can cause it), no definitive cause as to why. foreign debris or lack of internal seal lubrication is generally the accepted cause. some seal alloys probably cause it more readily than others as well, but with every seal material being proprietary and secretive no one can really know. ceramic and carbon seals being the only exception to the rule but they are only ideal for non force inducted engines and specific applications.
note that i'm not saying the softer seals will destroy a housing but they may cause some lateral striations that will need to be cleaned up during another rebuild. the good thing about the indestructable seals is the engines will not leave you stranded or destroy more expensive parts where the more brittle seals will most definitely kill the rotor and a housing to unusable limits.
there has never been an easy answer as to which route to take but with people destroying rotors continuously eventually turbo parts will be as rare to find as good 12A housings. with softer seals at least you still have something left to work with at the end of the day. going forward we won't have many options like in the past with the FB's/old schools using FC/FD parts, we have the 13B-MSP(renesis) which is a horrible platform for turboing due to its extreme compression and lack of a peripheral exhaust port(when a seal goes in one of those engines the devastation is horrible because nothing can readily escape the engine).
i have seen the striations from every type of seal however(even OEM seals can cause it), no definitive cause as to why. foreign debris or lack of internal seal lubrication is generally the accepted cause. some seal alloys probably cause it more readily than others as well, but with every seal material being proprietary and secretive no one can really know. ceramic and carbon seals being the only exception to the rule but they are only ideal for non force inducted engines and specific applications.
02-18-13, 07:09 PM
#33
striations are lines cut into the housings and seals either due to improper break in, lack of lubrication causing the metals to want to bond to one another causing gouging, or due to dirt/metal ingested into the engine. sometimes you will see similar on brake rotors when using improper pads on a softer brake rotor.
most commonly people use 1 ounce 2 stroke per gallon of gas. if pushing the engine hard i recommend 1.5 ounce per gallon on the track. for street use i have had decent results with wal mart brand TCW3 2 stroke oil. for track duty i would recommend a fully synthetic oil like Maxima which you can find at most motorcycle shops.
most commonly people use 1 ounce 2 stroke per gallon of gas. if pushing the engine hard i recommend 1.5 ounce per gallon on the track. for street use i have had decent results with wal mart brand TCW3 2 stroke oil. for track duty i would recommend a fully synthetic oil like Maxima which you can find at most motorcycle shops.
02-18-13, 07:28 PM
#34
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Thanks, RotaryEvolution I got the O-rings and seals, I have been looking for a new wiring harness for my low impedance injectors without any luck. I have decided to make a new myself with new connectors. Looking at Rotary Resurrecttion website under “Injector information” I found that “LI injectors integrate an injector resistor pack, wired inline between the ECU and injectors (under stock air box)”. I can’t find this resistor box!!?? I do have an Haltech E6K and the engine has been running and professionally tuned a couple of times, I am in total darkness, please turn on the lights, anyone….
02-18-13, 07:35 PM
#35
your standalone doesn't require any resistors and should be able to run low impedence or high impedence without any issue. sounds like you just need new connectors for your harness versus a whole harness, the haltech should have a new flying lead harness on it already and most of the sensors should actually be General Motors sensors, so the stock stuff won't even do you much good.
if your harness is fubar i would get a new flying lead kit and connectors, any Haltech distributor should be able to set you up.
if your harness is fubar i would get a new flying lead kit and connectors, any Haltech distributor should be able to set you up.
02-18-13, 10:12 PM
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your standalone doesn't require any resistors and should be able to run low impedence or high impedence without any issue. sounds like you just need new connectors for your harness versus a whole harness, the haltech should have a new flying lead harness on it already and most of the sensors should actually be General Motors sensors, so the stock stuff won't even do you much good.
if your harness is fubar i would get a new flying lead kit and connectors, any Haltech distributor should be able to set you up.
if your harness is fubar i would get a new flying lead kit and connectors, any Haltech distributor should be able to set you up.
