13bt FC Wont start after a boost
#26
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Ouch!
Yes, S is the thickest spacer on the list. The link that I posted above will lead you straight to the parts you need. You mentioned that you have the bolt, do you have the thermostat and spring, too? If not, don't forget them or if you choose to delete them, then get the plug.
Yes, S is the thickest spacer on the list. The link that I posted above will lead you straight to the parts you need. You mentioned that you have the bolt, do you have the thermostat and spring, too? If not, don't forget them or if you choose to delete them, then get the plug.
#27
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Your rear counterweight is most likely damaged from thrust which will make it impossible to set the end play properly. I'm just saying the potential is there. If you do get it back together and your end play is wrong then you'll know that your rear counterweight is damaged. The engine naturally thrusts forward and with your end play being way off your engine was able to damage itself at the rear.
#28
Sucker for Punishment
True, the oem flywheel is the couterweight. That is what the thrust bearing is there for .. to take the "forward" thrust that the engine creates. The engine will move forward eating itself at the back if the thrust bearings aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing.
There is a chance that it was damaged. Hopefully not. And hopefully the eccentric lobes haven't rubbed up against the irons.
There is a chance that it was damaged. Hopefully not. And hopefully the eccentric lobes haven't rubbed up against the irons.
Last edited by Rotary Alkymist; 11-11-18 at 07:58 PM.
#30
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Dunedin
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It makes sense what your saying. I could always here a slight grind from the front from the day i got the car, I brought if from a fella who had rebuild it himself and i guess this is the result from him doing it incorrectly. I brought the car not going as he wasn't able to set the timing correct and had fitted it with the wrong plugs. I have also had problems with the gearbox and in that time i removed the box, The engine is running a excedy flywheel, Does this mean i need to add a counter weight to the back? im going to remove the engine from the car and have a look at the rear to make sure that there is no damage
I had a look inside and the thermostat is in there, it loooks like a pin, does this mean that the spring is inside aswell? The link you gave me above for parts i have looked at but being is new zealand the price of shipping makes it quite pricey. I will go to mazda here and price up the parts aswell. If the back looks sweet i should be fine just putting the front back together with new parts?
I had a look inside and the thermostat is in there, it loooks like a pin, does this mean that the spring is inside aswell? The link you gave me above for parts i have looked at but being is new zealand the price of shipping makes it quite pricey. I will go to mazda here and price up the parts aswell. If the back looks sweet i should be fine just putting the front back together with new parts?
#31
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
The engine will move forward eating itself at the back if the thrust bearings aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. There is a chance that it was damaged. Hopefully not. And hopefully the eccentric lobes haven't rubbed up against the irons.
As I understand it, there is a certain finite amount of movement in the assembly, and we use the thrust spacers to bring that movement into the accepted range, and Mazda designed it so that all thrust issues would be mitigated at the front end of the assembly. That is why it made sense to me when I read about over-torquing the flywheel because that implies you're sort of forcing it further back on the shaft (if that makes sense) and therefore you will screw up the natural movement and the endplay measurement up front. Even the shape of the shaft itself suggests (to me) that the rear is not a huge concern because it sort of comes off the lobe, maintains the axis through the stationary gear and then tapers off to the flywheel area. The front, on the other hand, comes off the lobe and then sort has that blunt area where the thrust assembly interacts with at the stationary gear.
That said, I am enjoying this discussion, but I'm thinking maybe make another thread for it in the General Tech forum and leave Hypo7's thread for his use. Besides, we would probably get input from some bigger brains over there, too.
#32
Sucker for Punishment
Diabolical, thanks for refreshing my memory a bit. I am also enjoying this discussion.
I would like to correct something I said earlier. Rear engine damage will NOT affect endplay. I would like to explain in further detail why rear damage can occur in this circumstance. Correct me if I'm wrong; here it goes.
When an engine is running properly the end play is between main journal and the front counterweight. The end play is soley controlled by the spacer.
If we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? The thrust plate. The thrust washer comes in contact with the needle bearing which rides the rear face of the thrust plate.
If we push the e-shaft backwards from the front, what stops it? Again, the thrust plate. The thrust washer comes in contact with the front needle bearing and it rides the front face of the thrust plate.
Now, let's examine this with the bolt out and the damage that we know of.
If we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it? The thrust plate does but there have been some changes. The rear needle bearing is severely damaged, the thrust washer is also badly damage and the e-shaft is damaged. What is the significance of this damage? Let's dig a bit deeper.
-e-shaft front main journal is worn and possibly shorter front to back.
-the needle bearing is not as wide.
-the thrust washer is not as wide.
All this results in a difference in distance between the front main bearing journal and the thrust plate, increasing end play, which also results in a difference in distance between the flywheel and the rear main bearing.
With this in mind.. if we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? It could be the thrust plate... it could be the rear bearing shoulder.
If we push the e-shaft backward from the front, what stops it from moving with the bolt out?!! Hard to say really but it's the forward thrust that matters most.
I'm sure he was wondering why his clutch was acting weird due to the abnormal positioning of his pressure plate(moving farther away).
If I had the time I would measure a lobe and subtract from 80mm then we would know how much clearance you have between lobe and iron.
I would say that given his current situation that this info could be important to him.
I would like to correct something I said earlier. Rear engine damage will NOT affect endplay. I would like to explain in further detail why rear damage can occur in this circumstance. Correct me if I'm wrong; here it goes.
When an engine is running properly the end play is between main journal and the front counterweight. The end play is soley controlled by the spacer.
If we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? The thrust plate. The thrust washer comes in contact with the needle bearing which rides the rear face of the thrust plate.
If we push the e-shaft backwards from the front, what stops it? Again, the thrust plate. The thrust washer comes in contact with the front needle bearing and it rides the front face of the thrust plate.
Now, let's examine this with the bolt out and the damage that we know of.
If we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it? The thrust plate does but there have been some changes. The rear needle bearing is severely damaged, the thrust washer is also badly damage and the e-shaft is damaged. What is the significance of this damage? Let's dig a bit deeper.
-e-shaft front main journal is worn and possibly shorter front to back.
-the needle bearing is not as wide.
-the thrust washer is not as wide.
All this results in a difference in distance between the front main bearing journal and the thrust plate, increasing end play, which also results in a difference in distance between the flywheel and the rear main bearing.
With this in mind.. if we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? It could be the thrust plate... it could be the rear bearing shoulder.
If we push the e-shaft backward from the front, what stops it from moving with the bolt out?!! Hard to say really but it's the forward thrust that matters most.
I'm sure he was wondering why his clutch was acting weird due to the abnormal positioning of his pressure plate(moving farther away).
If I had the time I would measure a lobe and subtract from 80mm then we would know how much clearance you have between lobe and iron.
I would say that given his current situation that this info could be important to him.
Last edited by Rotary Alkymist; 11-12-18 at 07:33 PM.
#33
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Dunedin
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this is very important, can someone please explain to me the difference between a thrust washer and thrust plate? is the washer used to pack out if a bigger spacer is used. or do you use a washer and plate or two plates? I can see in my haynes Manuel that it has two plates but says nothing about a washer?
Also are we know saying that my e shaft is damaged and i should ideally pull the engine apart? is it not a good idea to reassemble and check end play?
Also are we know saying that my e shaft is damaged and i should ideally pull the engine apart? is it not a good idea to reassemble and check end play?
#34
Sucker for Punishment
I'm just judging by the photo. It seems to be damaged. I could be mistaken.
The thrust washer is the black washer in the photo that is damaged.
The thrust plate is the plate that is bolted to the stationary gear.
It's your call really. I'm just bringing it to your attention that there may or may not be damage at the rear.
The thrust washer is the black washer in the photo that is damaged.
The thrust plate is the plate that is bolted to the stationary gear.
It's your call really. I'm just bringing it to your attention that there may or may not be damage at the rear.
Last edited by Rotary Alkymist; 11-12-18 at 08:32 PM.
#36
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
... can someone please explain to me the difference between a thrust washer and thrust plate? is the washer used to pack out if a bigger spacer is used. or do you use a washer and plate or two plates? I can see in my haynes Manuel that it has two plates but says nothing about a washer?
Also are we know saying that my e shaft is damaged and i should ideally pull the engine apart? is it not a good idea to reassemble and check end play?
Also are we know saying that my e shaft is damaged and i should ideally pull the engine apart? is it not a good idea to reassemble and check end play?
If you look at the Mazdatrix link I posted above, there is an annotated photo of the front stack. It will show you what's what.
EDIT-
Here, I'll just link it again: http://www.mazdatrix.com/b5.htm
Last edited by diabolical1; 11-13-18 at 08:47 AM.
#37
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
All this results in a difference in distance between the front main bearing journal and the thrust plate, increasing end play, which also results in a difference in distance between the flywheel and the rear main bearing.
With this in mind.. if we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? It could be the thrust plate... it could be the rear bearing shoulder.
With this in mind.. if we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? It could be the thrust plate... it could be the rear bearing shoulder.
A few of the details you cited are a little confusing, but I think it's probably just a matter of the way we speak - you use the term "thrust plate" a lot and at times I think you meant something else. For the record, that's not a criticism, it's just me saying that I tried to quote-unquote "correct" you in my mind as I was reading. I know I'm guilty of doing the same thing in some of the responses I give on this board, too, so again - no offense meant.
#38
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Dunedin
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys. Have had a go at setting the end play today and could not get a ready. The e shaft is jammed inside the stationary gear and will not slide in and out. If I leave the stationary gear unbolt it will pull out with the shaft and the only way to get it back to the housing is to lightly tap it with a hammer. Does anyone have an idea on how to free it up without me having to pull the engine apart. The e shaft slides fine apart from the front stationary housing. If I keep pulling it out lighting tapping it back and turning it in between do you think it will eventually free itself back up?
#39
Sucker for Punishment
I'll be honest with you. I would've yanked the engine half way through this thread. It's probably in your best interest to think about pulling the engine and doing it properly. Honestly man, if you don't do this right your engine is toast and in the long run you'll be putting in twice the time and we don't even want to think about the money wasted. Yank the engine and pat yourself on the back for doing it right.
Last edited by Rotary Alkymist; 12-14-18 at 03:59 PM.
#40
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Dunedin
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I decided to pull the engine out and start pulling the thing apart it wasn't easy to pull apart but once it came this was the damage I found. The e shaft that goes though the bearing in the front stationary the lobes seem fine. But the buggered is buggered. It could a bit of beating to free it up. Does any know if I now need to get the e shaft checked for balance?
#41
Sucker for Punishment
Ouch. Your e-shaft must be a paper weight no? Are there any grooves that can catch a finger nail on the eshaft? I had a feeling that you had bearing damage. Is that the only bearing with damage?? If so you're really lucky! Check all your bearings and confirm that they haven't "spun". I've been there man -it sucks.
#42
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Dunedin
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its been a very long time since i have posted, Unsure if anyone will jump back on this post but here is what i have found today after closer inspection
Hardening gone?
Hardening gone?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
foild
2nd Generation Specific (1986-1992)
22
01-18-05 09:58 PM
WeazelOne
2nd Generation Specific (1986-1992)
1
10-22-02 11:18 AM
Rx7supra
2nd Generation Specific (1986-1992)
2
03-18-02 07:28 PM