djSL

iTrader: (5)

This is something I have noticed within the rx7 community. The more and more I think about it, na rx7's (predominantly fc's) are disregarded from being pure, fun, and legitimate driving machines. In comparison, the AE86 enjoys outstanding accolades in regards to clean builds with sub 200whp.

Now I understand the tofu drift craze, that the AE86 is lighter, and the fact that the rx7 came with a factory turbo option lending to easier power by staying turbo. But why is no one willing to try?

There is, of course, the added fact that most fc's are built like s*** these days. Yet, why not give it a shot?

If the AE86 can be considered a truly great experience with sub part power levels, so can the fc.

Input?

lim_fc3c

iTrader: (4)

Just posted a thread on a balanced build....

djSL

iTrader: (5)

I do note the post you mentioned. What I had intended was in import culture entirely. Threads like yours and a few others are a step in the right direction.

I was mainly seeking input as to why others think it isn't as comparable of a machine given the similarities.

Once again, I do think a lot it happens to deal with fc owners having a sh**** build, blowing it up, and scrapping it.

Buggy

iTrader: (8)

I think it's mainly because it's too easy to just go turbo. I was going to build up a na engine for my first fc that I had. Then I got a ride in a turbo fc and it just changed the whole game. To get decent power from the na engine required a lot of time, work, and money. Then you are still dealing with a weaker driveline too. You are honestly just better off to go with a turbo car and be done with it. I'm not biased towards turbo setups by any means though. I run a half bridged na in my rx4 and love it, but it's a totally different car than an fc.

djSL

iTrader: (5)

I completely understand that sentiment in regards to turbo being easier. I just feel if the AE86 is praised as a contender with little power, the na rx7 should as well. It is simply overlooked by the tuning community as a whole.

Rotate86

the body is just to heavy to make a comparable power to weight as a AE86

djSL

iTrader: (5)

In stock form, I completely agree. However, in an NA build lightness should be heavily considered and putting the car on on a diet should be priority that is included with the territory.

Rotate86

but even on a diet I do not think you can get a fc3s even close to the Toyota.but you could get more hp from a 13bpp engine to bump up the power weight ratio in the fc.

Rotate86

but back to 1st post I have no idea why there is no desire to create the ultimate Na fc. down here in NZ it is so rare to see a Na fc. as well got all the turbo versions

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

it would seem to me that the weight issue is fairly moot unless you're just talking about a bare bones race car. the FC will never come close, so to get comparable performance the simplest thing would be to increase power (since you can't match weight) and the turbo engine is the best way to do it. additionally, i would tend to think the torque curves between turbocharged and N/A would also make the case for one over the other.

djSL

iTrader: (5)

I can see that. Hmm. Maybe I'm just an idiot with blind faith lol.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

no. i wouldn't call you an idiot for that.

i would just say look at it in context. i would tend think that while everyone that competes or builds cars are not the same, if they were given the same resources, they would probably all follow the path of least resistance. i think we can all agree that when it comes to the FC, that path is a turbo and since the factory already did it for you, well ....

djSL

iTrader: (5)

That does make sense. Hmm. Well, given how much I have put into my NA build, I feel the need to complete something just a tad different from the masses.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

there's nothing wrong with an N/A build. that's the road i'm taking with my FC right now (although i plan to go turbo later). i respect them a great deal. in some ways, i respect them more than turbo builds.

23Racer

NA builds are a bit more satisfying as they are robust durable cars with great balance. I love my race car as it is just an anvil and goes like stink. You do have to get used to balancing RPM versus torque and the fact that the car won't pull a skin off of a bowl of Jello, but at speed when you have the back end just slightly out of line and you are balancing the car on the throttle, there is nothing better. I wish there was some way I could describe the way the car feels from the apex on out of Turn 3 at Mosport, but I can't. The NA Version of the car just races so much better than the TII version, though for about 6 laps the TII version is way faster.

Eric

DeaconBlue

iTrader: (31)

I am not 100% sure what you mean by “balanced build”, but here are the details of what I have done with my 91K mile ’90 GXL that I use as a fair weather daily driver, weekend getaway toy and take to HPDE events. The car has it's full interior and everything (yes everything) still works.

Suspension;
AAS system removed in favor of…
Tokico Illumina struts and shocks with Eibach springs
Rotated front upper mounts to maximize positive caster
Offset front strut pinch bolts to maximize negative front camber
Energy Suspension poly bushings front and rear
Racing Beat DTSS eliminations
Racing Beat sway bars front and rear
Mazdatrix sway bar link ends front and rear
Rear adjustable length vertical sub frame link to minimize rear camber

Chassics bracing;
Ultra Racing steel upper strut tower brace
Tanabe Sustec aluminum lower front sub frame brace
K2 Motor’s MazdaSpeed style rear strut tower brace

Rolling stock;
Two (2) sets of light weight SSR type C 17x8.5” 42mm offset rims (FD fitment)
Rolled front fender lips
17mm bolt-on spacers front and 22mm bolt-on spacers rear
225/45-17 tires front and rear, Continental DW (street) and Nitto NT01 (track)

Brakes;
Factory stock 5-bolt setup with NAPA re-manufactured calipers and mount brackets
Factory stock 7/8” NA master cylinder and booster
Level Zero Motorsports master cylinder brace
Hawk HPS pads (street) and Hawk HP Plus front pads only (track)
Goodridge SS brake lines
Ate DOT 4 brake fluid

Engine;
Factory rebuilt blue plate engine installed at 53K miles
Custom fabricated CAI with cold air box from SCCA Pro Solo II race car
Pineapple Racing 6 port sleeve inserts
Corksport street header with DEI Titanium header wrap
Catco 49 state main cat
Borla catback exhaust
Fully functional emissions controls other than removed pre-cat
Rtek Stage 2 with wideband O2
Racing Beat Street 80-85 PSI oil pressure regulator and front cover spring shim kit
Racing Beat oil sensor adapter with over sized Wix oil filter
Pineapple Racing 7 quart competition oil pan with baffle
Removed oil level sensor and sub zero oil temperature sensor
Custom oil cooler lines with swept AN fittings to minimize any restriction of flow
16” Flex-a-lite electric fan in factory shroud with Hayden fan controller
100 Amp FD alternator with Banzai Racing mounting bracket
Miata AGM battery relocated to passenger storage well, with upgraded 2ga battery cables
Upgraded 120 Amp main fuse, upgraded 4ga cable from alternator to fuse box
Low resistance spark plug wires with NGK stock heat range plugs
Mazda Competition engine mounts
CSF all metal copper/brass radiator
Stant 180 degree thermostat

Transmission;
Factory stock replacement clutch and TOB
MazdaTrix short throw shifter
Mazda Competition bushings in cross mount brace
Redline MT-90 fluid

Differential;
Mazda Competition mount bushings
Miata 1.8L NA Torsen T2 LSD
Factory stock 4.10 gearing
Redline 75w-90 Fluid

Steering;
Wheelskin leather steering wheel cover
Factory over-boosted PS
Redline High Temp ATF

Misc;
Pacific glass sun roof panel
Hella H4 head lamp upgrade kit
Modified fog lamp switch control - now also works with just the parking lamps
Sony CD head unit with Pioneer speakers
Redline leather shifter boot and emergency brake leaver boot
J-ME Enterprises custom floor maps with RX8 font RX7 logo
1990-92 Volvo 740 Turbo front lower valance lip
Mazda late model chrome emblem with RX8/CX7 font RX7 chrome emblem
Factory convertible aluminum hood
Factory aluminum jack
Factory 16” aluminum mini spare

NanaimoRx-7

Nice list man, I can appreciate that kind of work :-)

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I really really love driving/racing a well set up NA FC.

You get to get on the throttle so early and stay on it so long, its a great feeling and a totally different driving experience than a turbo FC.

The NA FCs I have driven/raced have been C Street Prepared Auto-X cars (except my 1st base model). You have to keep full interior (can convert to base specs) and stock engine "keg". So you get ~2,400lbs and ~180rwhp max.

Basically, you get your *** kicked by CSP Miatas all day long.

If I were to do a "balanced" NA FC build I would likely give up on racing class and focus on the NA strengths while keeping the cost low.

Go nuts with weight loss!
Stripped interior/dash, gut doors, cut front off the car ahead of strut mounts and rear off the car behind the shock towers and weld in minimal mounts/braces to make it work/safe. Plastic hatch, fiberglass fenders/bumpers all around.

Should be able to get to ~ 1,800lbs easily as fully caged NA FC race cars are ~2,000lbs.

RX-8 trans with turbo 4 port motor and 4150 TB/intake manifold for cheap easy 200rwhp with great response and decent gearing/shifting.

Or just give up on the FC and put a rotary in a Miata.
Yeah, I would probably do that since its a better base car and there is such a good aftermarket for real Miata race parts versus making everything yourself for the FC. But I hate convertibles!

23Racer

Dang, how do you get a race FC down to 2,000 lbs? I am at approx. 2,400 lbs, totally gutted with a cage and basic race stuff. Sure my cage is over built, but that would add maybe 100 lbs and I am still 300 lbs over. If I could take 300 lbs out of my car and still leave it race legal, I would gain an easy 3 seconds a lap.

Keep in mind I have no side windows, lexan rear, stock body panels, NASCAR style cage and completely gutted interior with only a Kirkey seat inside. What am I missing?

Eric

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

First, is that 2,400lbs with you in the car?

Was your car S5 to start?

I ask because both the FULL INTERIOR S4 base model CSP legal NA FCs I have owned weighed in 2,4xxlbs as does my friends.

My SSM legal S4 TII with FULL (base) INTERIOR corner weighs in at 2,5xxlbs.

The above weights are all budget builds with all stock body/interior pieces. 100-200lbs could be pulled of each car above and stay in the same full interior class (with $$$ and time) .

My TII has ~80lbs of enfini seats and ~30lbs of Optima battery to easily lose for example.

------------

IDK what your class allows or exactly what you have done, but here is a short list based off your pic and where a lot people get lazy/run out of $$

Minimum required cage ~50lbs
Forged monoblock wheels instead of 'verts ~8lbs rotational/unsprung inertia
5" multiplate clutch/"flex plate" starter drive ~10lbs rotational/unsprung inertia
2 piece brake rotors ~5lbs rotational/unsprung inertia
Alum/CF driveshaft ~5lbs rotational/unsprung inertia
Ditch stock poly bumper F/R for fiberglass ~50lbs
Ditch stock bumper bar/bolts ~8lbs
Ditch stock headlight/assemblies ~10lbs
4lb LiFePo battery ~25lbs
Fiberglass F/R fenders with non structural sheetmetal (to suspension rigidity) cut out ~10lbs (mostly front fender mounting/reinforcement removal)
Speedglass windshield ~15lbs
Aftermarket mirrors ~5lbs
Dry carbon NA hood/light cover ~15lbs
Thinwall SS or Ti exhaust ~15lbs
Side, windshield, door trim removal ~5lbs
5th/reverse gear removal ~5lbs
Cull/shorten/replace all hardware ~5lbs
Paying attention to details throughout car (plastic shift **** instead of metal, fixed steering wheel instead of tilt, fabric shift boot instead of rubber, less gauges/race pak display, plastic heel-up pad) ~20lbs
Full paint/undercoat strip -repaint ~15lbs
Hole saw/swiss cheese/cut/grind everything you can ~10lbs

Underhood?
Shorty intake & carb or efi (per class) ~15lbs and power
Alum pulleys ~5lbs rotational inertia
Wiper motor/wiper ~3lbs
Race ps pump/bracket ~5lbs
Race alt ~5lbs
Adapt smaller starter ~3lbs
Thinwall SS/Inconel header ~5lbs


I'm not saying you have/haven't done any of the ~350lbs on the above list- just throwing out ideas.

23Racer

I love the breakdown and have a ton of that stuff done. It comes in at just over 2400 lbs fully fueled and then add me with helmet, Hans, suit and all and it's just under 2650. It was an S4 to start with and I left the small S4 brakes on it just to save weight. When I built the car we had to stay steel but I did run the AWR nose setup with everything else including lights and pods removed. You did give me a few more ideas of where to drop weight though. I think I can get another 30 to 40.

Thanks

Eric

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

we were just runner up at the NASA Western states nationals to one of the nicest FC's ive seen in a long time (haven't seen blue Tii's car in a really long time!)

its a PTE car, so its 170hp/2800lbs, with driver. its built very nicely, although its not flashy. it turned out after 3 days (we did 4) of racing that reliability was important, and the thing ran like a swiss watch all weekend, as FC's tend to do.

not sure about the mod list, but its a stock looking S5 engine, RB exhaust, ground control suspension. full cage... hoosiers

it went by start finish sounding like it was turning about 5,000rpm, so i think stock diff, i'm sure its got a limited slip.

it has a huge power advantage over the miatas, in the shorter races it was untouchable. in the 40 minute final, he was nearly out of tires, but our car, the green miata had a wheel come loose. the orange miata had an off that broke something way down deep in the car. i'm looking at the video, and for some reason the orange miata is just all over the place the whole race, the fatal off was like the 4th or 5th one.

it was kind of funny to loose to an FC, as the miata just replaced jacks old FC race car

djSL

iTrader: (5)

These last few posts give me hope! I should have my itb setup back from tuning soon. Also, some great ideas for weight reduction that I will be stealing.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Looks like I greatly underestimated the weight of a cage and safety equipment on a real wheel to wheel race car!

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

well, we're always weighed WITH driver, usually after coming off track, so it changes with the amount of gas left in the tank. i think our old car was 2650ish?

the PTE car has a minimum power to weight ratio, and for the nationals they put us on the dyno, and at 170rwhp he needs to be 2800 with driver. i didn't look, but i would be surprised if there wasn't some ballast in there.

even our miata, is only allowed 2330lbs and 134rwhp, and to do that we're running a 29mm intake restrictor.

if we went to PTD, we get lighter and more hp... its just in our region the PTE field is bigger.