jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

I'm on my fourth map that I have found on here and none have started the car. I would like to just get the car started and running so that I can take it to a tuner and let him tweak everything. One filled my turbo with fuel it as dumping so much, one almost got things fired up, the other two seems to do absolutely nothing. I'm getting the fuel, air, and spark. Compression is strong and has been tested with my Mazda digital compression tester. I've been working on these things since 1986, but this is the first step into a standalone.

Is there anyone out there willing to help suggest a map for me?

ECU is a Microtech LT8s.

My setup is a 87 TII, S4 13B with a big street port, BNR Stage III turbo and S5 manifold, FD UIM with JDM S5 LIM, FMIC, stock TII ignition, PLX wideband, 2.5" RB downpipe into a 3" remainder exhaust, e-fan on a Fluidyne radiator.

Fuel system is a 15 gallon fuel cell modified to fit in stock location, -10 supply line with -8 return line, Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump with Aeromotive inline filter, Aeromotive 13101 rising rate FPR, ID1000 injectors x4 on modified TII fuel rails to accept -AN fittings.

I know there some info in there that is not needed, but I wanted anyone that is willing to help to have all the info. If you need anything else, let me know. Your help is genuinely appreciated.

JTB

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The "base" map pre-programmed into the ECU will start the car fairly easily. If you have altered it though, I hope you wrote down or screen captured the settings otherwise they are lost and you'll need to find someone with an unmolested LT8s.

Looking at the TII base map sticky thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/microtech-11...e-maps-343297/

The first map listed by silverotor is pretty close to the stock LT8s map. The numbers look good, it should start the car.

With 4 1000CC injectors you are doubling the amount of fuel you are shoving into the engine, so you'll want to approximately halve the pulsewidths on any base map set up for stock 550CC injectors.

EFI regulators should have the same size feed and return line. Also -10 is about enough fuel to feed 2000HP. -6 would more than suffice.

What is your fuel pressure?

Have you verified spark is arriving at the correct time? Unplug the fuel pump and crank the car while checking with a timing light on L1. Timing should be around the leading mark (depends on the map) while cranking. If not, the position of the CAS is wrong or something is wrong with the map.

Is this a fresh rebuild? Often it is annoying to start one on an untuned standalone so the easiest thing is to push start the car with another vehicle.

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

Thanks, Aaron, for the reply.

I do not have the base map settings due to this being a used ECU that already had a map on it and the seller had a very similar setup to mine. This was the map that dumped so much fuel that it filled the turbo within 1-2 minutes of attempting to start.

I have tried sliverotors map. That was the map that I mentioned that almost started the car. I almost went back to that map but decided to post this thread and see if anyone suggested anything different.

I am very aware of having plenty of fuel available. After the first bridgeport engine that I popped, back in 1996, I became friends with some crazy Puerto Ricans that recommended that I build the fuel system as I have described above. They had it on their rotaries, and since then, I have yet to blow an engine because of lack of fuel.

Fuel pressure is ~ 45psi.

Spark is there, as mentioned initially. The car was running prior to going to EFI. I am building this car for my son and we discussed the build early on and he wanted something different than your standard build. So, I took it probably a little too far, and built the car with everything above. But, instead of EFI, I built it with a blowthrough/sidedraft Weber DCOE carb. We had the car running and driving, but the Weber was a handful to dial in. It was either smooth as silk on idle and lower RPMS and fell on its face in the upper RPMs or barely idled/ran like crap until about 3500 and then launched like a rocket. There was no in between. After roughly 100 different jet settings, with virtually no big change, we made the choice to switch back to EFI. The car hasn't ran since the day the Weber was pulled.

My son is a smart kid, and as most kids nowadays, he is very knowledgable around a PC/laptop. He's only 14 right now, so I thought this would be easier for him in the long run to be able to learn to tune and adjust as he needed in the future. Even though I knew this would be a PITA for me.

I'll verify spark, again. I also had a DLIDFIS system on with the Weber, but switched back to stock TII ignition roughly the same time as pulling the DCOE. However, when I switched the ignition up, I tried it before I pulled the Weber and the car started and ran just the same as with the DLIDFIS. I was wondering if the ignition was the issue with no in between, but it really came down to the carb was no good with boost (I know, I know......). So, the ignition shouldn't be the problem. I will check it again though.

The engine is not necessarily "fresh". It was rebuilt, but it has 100-110 miles on it now.

Thanks, again, Aaron.

JTB

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

And just so it is known, battery is new and remains on a trickle charger while I am not working on the car. I also hook up a charger while starting the car to keep the battery as strong as possible.

First gen man

iTrader: (24)

With my 720 cc injectors, I'm usually around a pulsewidth of 5 ms during most cranking and 2.1 ms at idle. Your setup should be a little less. 19° atdc timing for idle timing, and 5° during cranking.

From there you can use the microtech OPT Mixtrim function to help out. Just plus or minus off fuel till you get it started, then youll know what you need to do.

You can also deflood the thing with that mixtrim set to -40 or so.

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

Yo yo yo, what's up first gen man? Thanks for the reply bud. I did deflood everything, but had a few fire shows as the residue was burning off.

I'll check out the OPT Mixtrim next week as I go back over the timing and basically just give the car a good once more over.

JTB

First gen man

iTrader: (24)

Yo, yo! Glad to see you made it to fuel injection!

Do give a report after you give everything another once over!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Shouldn't need MIXTRIM to deflood the car. With the TPS reading full throttle the ECU cuts the injectors for flood clear. So just crank with the pedal down.

Have the injectors been sitting around for a long time? This will almost certainly cause them to stick up.

With only 100 miles or so on the engine it still could be very hard to start on an untuned standalone. Aassuming there is fuel and spark, then a push start will get it going even if the fuel map is wildly wrong. It's often the quickest way to deal with this. Then when it's actually running you can see how it runs and make a judgement as to what needs to be adjusted. For difficult to start cars on standalones, a push start is my default method of getting it going.

First gen man

iTrader: (24)

Well, I'm not 100% referring to a regular deflood, I will start cranking with the mixtrim set to -40 or -50 and basically deflood it, and then starting upping the fuel/trim % until it starts all during one crank. Kinda lets you know how far your map is off real quick.

But yes, push starts do work great, I prefer towing it with another vehicle to do the deflood pop start. We have had some bad luck with less than 4 people trying to pop start hard to start FC's.

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

The injectors were purchased brand new from Chris that sells the Haltech ecus. The injectors don't even have an hours worth of time on them.

Car was deflooded right after the turbo fill. I will check everything later this week and give a report on my findings.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

But has the car been sitting?

After serious flooding you'll need to do more than just deflood. Spark plugs will probably be done so it likely won't start without effort (ie. a push from another vehicle).

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

Yeah, the car has been sitting. But the injectors have only been in the car for about a month. Prior to that, they were sealed and new.

If you read above, I've been working on these things since 1986. I'm very familiar with the rotary tendancies and necessities. The neighborhood that I live in isn't very friendly on a push start. I would have already done this if I wouldn't get fined by my lovely homeowner association.

Plugs have been replaced, and the engine and turbo have been deflooded properly.

I know that I am battling several things here. I will switch the map back to the one that nearly started the car (silverotor's I believe), check the timing again, and give everything a go over. My main reason for posting this thread was to see if anyone had a very setup and a map for the LT8s that worked for them. Apparently, no one does that is running a LT8s.

I will report what I find soon.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The issue with the maps is that it is a lot harder to share Microtech maps since, well, you can't save them. And that the stock base map (basically close to silverrotor's) will start the car.

It's too bad about the push start because you may never get it started without. Very few things I hate more than overactive homeowners associations run by people with no life just looking for a cause. Then again, I've always wondered what specifically they could do if you didn't pay their "fine". I mean, it's your property...maybe laws are different in the US.

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

CAS showed to be a tooth off on the timing, which has been corrected. Tried to start the car with the current map. She fired a couple of times, but its nowhere close to actually running.

I will be loading the other map this afternoon and see what happens. I'll post what happens.

JTB

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

CAS tooth will do it every time and has caught me in the past.

It may be quite flooded now however.

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

Yep, that tooth has gotten me in the past also.

Imma let it cool off and go at it this afternoon and see if the different map will get her fired up. After I reset the CAS, I only tried to start the car twice for 5-10 seconds each. I'll pull the plugs, disable the pump, tuen her over for a little, then try to start it. Hopefully it works.

JTB

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

Alright...another update....reset the timing from being a tooth off on the CAS, uploaded SilerRotors map.....same thing, except back to too much fuel. She flooded out within seconds.

I pulled the plugs, disconnected the power to the fuel pump, gas pedal on the floor and spun it over a good bit to clean her out, reinstalled and reconnected everything, tried to start again, she almost fired up, then flooded.

Did the above procedure again, but cleaned and preheated the spark plugs this time, tried to start her up, she came to life for a second, then flooded.

Deflooded her again and called it a day.

Can someone take a look at SilverRotors map and suggest any changes in fueling with my setup?

JTB

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

How about just setting MIXTRIM down 10% and trying again? If you can get it in the ballpark, you can then decrease fuel in the map and set MIXTRIM back to 0% once you know roughly how much fuel it should take.

But silverrotor's map should start the car. I should know, as that map came from his car and I was running the laptop on startup. It's basically a very, very slightly tweaked Microtech base map. If it's not starting your car then it's likely the difference in injector size and fuel pressure. Set a static 40 PSI (that's what the car was set at when we tweaked that map) and take 40% off of injector times to compensate for your 1000CC injectors.

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

That's what I'm talking about Aaron. The car basically started a little tonight. It would idle for a few seconds at very low RPM, as in 400-500. As soon as the throttle was depressed at all, she would quit.

After reading this, and our time was limited this evening because of rain showers, as it has been for nearly 5 days straight, I realized that I didn't set the mixtrim as you mentioned. When I went to set the mixtrim, it was at 2%. I set mine at 10%, not down 10% as you mentioned. I will work on this tomorrow and see what happens.

On the t_inj screen, I set my low RPM settings to 60, 90, 90, 120, 120, then let the others as they were set at 150 and so on.

Anything sounding ackward or any other suggestions? Definitely making improvements so far.

My son even wanted to thank you that have contributed. He is getting excited to here this thing fire back up. It has been about a year and a half since we've heard it run. Thanks guys, from both of us.

JTB

rx3sum

im a bit of a microtech noob but id say you need to try and search for a map with 4 1000cc injectors or at least one with 1000 cc primaries.
The silverrotor base map will be way too rich as aaron said you could roughly half the base map figures for idle map.with 1000s youd want about 1.4ms total inj time(after all corrections) for warm idle and some richening up for start up.
easy check is using mixtrim as aaron mentioned but i think it will need to go way down to start on that map.
im assuming you have checked for error codes and calibrated tps.
if all else fails disconnect fuel pump and see if it will start with start ya bastard or your equivalent.if it runs on this it means you have a fuel issue.

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

rx3sum: Much thanks for the input. Based on your recommendations, you are an expert with the MicroTech compared to me. This has been my first attempt to get away from carburetors. I can build and tune the heck out of Holleys or Weber IDAs, DCOEs, DCDs, etc... Plugging in values is a new venture for me.

I know these engines well enough to know that I am simply getting too much fuel. She floods after a few minutes of an attempt to start. The latest recommendations from Aaron has been the closest this car has came to running on any ECU I have tried.

Once the it floods, I can disconnect the pump from the relay and she will almost start for a second or two after it cleans itself out a little. I may be wrong here, but I am almost certain that if I can get the fuel amount straightened out, this thing is going to fire right up.

Thanks, again, to all that chime in here. This sort of thing still shows that there are good people on this forum willing to help.

JTB

jtbshaw

iTrader: (33)

Not too much to report this evening, other than some disappointment. I have discovered the trailing coil pack is not firing at all. The pack has plenty of juice going to it, nothing coming out though. With 1000cc injectors, I'm sure this isn't helping with the flooding.

Adjusted a few things slightly and had about the same result as the other day...almost completely fired up.....just not quite enough spark maybe???

Now, out of all the rotary stuff I have, I don't have a spare trailing pack. Downside now is that I am leaving for my new job in Texas on Thursday. I have one thing I am going to try and source a pack from tomorrow. If so, I will drop that in quickly and try again. Otherwise, I will be done for a month or so.

Showing my noobness of the MicroTech, how do you check or read if there are any ECU errors or codes or errors the ECU is picking up?

JTB

bumpstart

microtech doesnt spark the trailing coil pack while under the cranking threshold
..it will not spark there till there is more than 400 rpm on board

.. original map. set staging value to 50 % ...use 42 psi base pressure ( engine not running ) correct the timing calibration,, be sure TPS and water temp senders also happy ..then use a 550 map and pull 40% out of mix trim

with 1000 cc injectors.. its still not quite a 50% reduction in ms.. as there is latency times with a larger pintle to consider
you will find its closer to a real time 1.7-1.9 ms ( after corrections from the 50% staging value )
this would make look up table ( pre stage value ) be more like 1.2 ms ( + 50 % ) = 1.8 ms

bumpstart

PS double check the injector wiring.. it is not unheard of to have both primary injectors wired to one rotor and have massive flood and one rotor start issues

rx3sum

jtb ive played with rotaries for over 20 years but usually paid for work to be done but no microtech experience until a month or 2 ago when i was getting my latest car running and been learning a little off bump.
Rule number 1 do what bump and aaron say
The cpu has 3 lights on it.
green means it has power
steady yellow with ign on but no cranking means tps is calibrated(should be confirmed on laptop or handset).
red flashing light means errors
If you have errors you need a handset or laptop to read them.The laptop offers more options but the handset is great as you can leave it in the car and its ready to use anytime.
Im betting following bumps -40 on mixtrim will get it going if there are no errors.
Air error can somewhat be ignored as a lot dont use air temp sensors