WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

I'm a bit confused as to where to use 1,3,7,9 vs. 11,1,5,7 on the wheel decoder page, as well as the 2nd trigger enable..

I'm using a MS1 v2.2 board, with a full (regular) cas.

When I have it set to 11,1,5,7, it reads my cranking speed @ 125ish... I thought that these things cranked around 300 RPM ish?

I tried setting it to 1,3,7,9, and the the tach instantly went to 11,000ish RPM, and it dumped a ton a fuel into the engine.

I did learn something new, however, in that you can hydro-lock a rotary if you dump enough fuel in. It's also easy to drain out, thanks to the L spark plugs!

Either way, what do those settings actually mean, and why is it that I think that Ken said I wanted to use the 1,3,7,9?

Thanks!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

If the CAS is stabbed as per the stock config, use 11,1,5,7.

Start with a trigger angle of 60.

Most of the RX-7s I have dealt with crank from 200-250 RPM. Is your battery in good shape?

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

Each of the settings corresponds to a different CAS positioning, which will affect the spark timing. However, switching between those should not change the measured RPM or amount of fuel delivery. Did you change anything else besides those wheel decoder settings? What version of MS1-E are you running? Could you post up your *.msq?

The 11,1,5,7 settings are for stabbing the CAS in the stock location, following the factory service manual's instructions. The 1,3,7,9 settings are if you stab the CAS with the engine at TDC and the third tooth on the 24 tooth wheel (counted from one of the teeth on the 2-tooth wheel in the direction of its rotation) lined up with the sensor. Generally, once you get it properly aligned with a timing light, the 1,3,7,9 settings have the CAS in the middle of the adjustment range, while the 11,1,5,7 has it all the way at one side.

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Aaron - Where do I set the trigger angle? Would that be in the Wheel Decoder Base Teeth? (360/60 = 6, but I thought that the pictures showed that set to 12?) I think the battery is alright, I've got it on a charger with crank assist.

topless - Thanks for the explanation. I'm running the latest (I think!) MS1/E rev 029y4. I'm going to verify that the CAS timing again tonight, just to ensure that the teeth align how the marks do.

I've uploaded the msq file. . I definitely would appreciate it if you guys would take a look at it. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that I don't remember as much as I should about this, I last used my megasquirt on my old Rx7 about 3 years ago, and I haven't touched it since. I also wasn't using it for ignition then, but Error*s card made that pretty straight forward, I think.

I'm still at the "Just trying to get it to start" stage.

Thanks!

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

wheel decoder base teeth should be 12... 12 teeth pass the CAS sensor on the 24-tooth wheel between every tooth on the 2-tooth wheel.... You need to divide by 720, cause thats the number of degrees per cycle on the "simulated 4-cyl" that we're tricking the MS into thinking our engine is.

I know 029y4 does work for rotaries, I was running that before switching to MS2 a few months ago. When I get home i'll post up my MSQ from that; mines for a TII with low-imp injectors (no resistor pack, so using the peak and hold drivers), 550s and 1000s for injectors, using 1,3,7,9 timing. Basically you may need to make the injector settings match your own, stab the CAS for 1,3,7,9 or change just the tooth settings, and change the staged injection parameters.

If I remember correctly, the trigger angle is in "Spark Settings" or something to that effect.

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Good memory, it was in Spark Settings. And it's set to 60.

That sounds like my setup, so I would really appreciate it if you gave me a copy.

Thanks!

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Okay, it turns out that I'm not crazy..

I just pulled the fuel pump fuse, then changed the wheel decoder settings to 1,3,7,9 and instantly the fuel pump light in MegaTune lit up and the tach jumped to 11,000 RPM +... I changed it back to 11,1,5,7 and it was happy again...

Any ideas what I could have screwed up to cause that?

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Alright, I'm completely lost...

If I advance the crank advance angle to about 10, it kind of catches and stumbles around 200 RPM (according to the MT tach). It will backfire occasionally. I really have no idea what what I should have for spark maps, as I've never tuned spark before, and I really don't know if my fuel maps are appropriate for a turbo II anyway...

Is there any good example msqs I can load up to at least get it started with? I'd love to try your settings, Topless, if you'd post them up.

Thanks!

PS - I want it to be set up for "Spark Output Inverted" set to NO, right?

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, it was a late day at work, and a guy's gotta eat. Anyway, here's my latest MSQ from MS1-E, 029y4.

Before loading this up, try re-flashing 029y4 onto the MS, just to start from a clean slate.

I do have closed loop idle and closed loop O2 corrections on, using an innovate LC-1 wideband.

I'd recommend exporting the fuel and timing maps that I have in there to use as a starting point. The spark is kind of a mash-up between the stock map and tuning advice from a number of sources including BDC on here. Its a bit on the conservative side once you get into boost, and I havent had the opportunity for any dyno testing yet, so it is in no way ideal. Fuel is just what was necessary to hit the target AFR's with minimal closed loop correction on my specific setup. You'll need to adjust fuel at the very least to get it right for your car.

Copy the trigger wheel settings besides the trigger and return (and trigger angle in Spark Settings) since these are specific to how you stab your CAS, and make sure that within "Codebase and Outputs Function", that "Generic Wheel" is set to be on for "Wheel Decoder".

Still makes no sense that changing the trigger and return values makes it read a different RPM... its still looking for the same number of teeth per revolution. Sure thats the only thing that changed, and that theres no typo or something somewhere?

Spark output inverted should be set to No

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for this, I'm going to go try it now I really appreciate you uploading it even after a long day!

I'm pretty damned certain that the numbers were all I changed, but I'll go out and try again and post back in a few.

Edit: Yep, that's definitely it. I just loaded your map and it did the same thing (tach all over the place north of 8000 RPM, injectors firing like crazy, etc.

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Alright, no dice for tonight... I think I'm going to have to let the battery charge back up.. Using your settings (except for 11,1,5,7 for the Wheel Decoder Settings), It just stumbles like it's about to start, but doesn't... Thanks for the map, I'll play more with it tomorrow after work.

muythaibxr

These are the classic symptoms of having noise from the starter.

I would recommend the following:

1) Check and clean all your grounds. Make sure the MS is grounded to the engine, and the engine is grounded to the chassis in stock locations. Clean all points where the the battery ground connects to the chassis and the starter.

2) Make sure you have added a .01uF capacitor across g+ and g- where they go into your lm1815 circuit.

3) You can try grounding pin 14 on the lm1815 circuit for the G signal.

4) If all else fails (like it did for me when I was first getting my engine to start) get a new starter. I fought with mine for a week before my starter finally died. I got a new starter and I have not had a single noise issue on crank again.

Ken

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Ken,

1) I double checked my grounds, I just put the car together, so I had sanded all of the grounding points before. I did not get a chance to ground the MS to the engine itself tonight, I grounded it to to the chassis instead of the ground from the ABS connector (I had to pull the ABS module, and it had a 12V constant, 12V switched and ground, so that's my ground points). If I get a chance to play with it tomorrow, i'll ground to engine.

2) I'm using Error*'s daughterboard, so I don't know if this was necessary, but I did it anyway, and it didn't seem to change the results at all, if I did it right. I put the cap between the wires on the incoming line, from the CAS if that's right.

3) I didn't have time to try this, as I was doing #4

4) I actually have a spare starter, which I swapped in. Unfortunately, the solenoid was bad, so I swapped the good solenoid. This didn't have any affect on it.

There have been a couple of times when the car "Caught" and then I had a few seconds of throttle control. The Tach didn't really seem accurate during these times, however, and it died. I can't consistently get this to happen, or I'd be closer to a happy camper!

Due to how the MS freaks out when I change the wheel decoder settings, do you really think it's noise, or is it more likely to be something in how I wired in Error*s daughter card?

I also sent you a PM.

Thanks for all the help so far, everyone!

muythaibxr

The code works differently with 11,1,5,7 settings because trigger #1 and #2 are on different sides of the second trigger. Trust me, I fought with this for a long time before getting it to work.

Grounding the MS to the chassis will cause all kinds of issues. Noise, sensor values that change when you hit the brakes, etc.

As for the starter, both the wiring and the starter need to be in good shape. Changing the starter fixed all my issues after I cleaned up my grounds and made the lm1815 changes. All of the things I mentioned need to be solid for the MS to work well.

Also, do your CAS wires have a shield? Is it grounded on 1 end?

Ken

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Ken,

Thanks for helping me out, again.... I'm going to head down and ground to engine here in a little bit...

You bring up a great point with the CAS.. I'm using the stock wiring, but I don't know where the shield is supposed to ground to with that, and since I'm not plugging in the stock ECU, it may not be grounded!

I'm checking that out when I head down obviously.

I'll keep you informed.

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Ken,

I just got done with doing battle with the Rx7 for the night. After following your suggestions, I think it's A LOT closer to firing.. It kept going into the afterstart mode, sputtering and such.. SOOO close sounding

Here's what I did:

1) Grounded the MS to the engine via the bolt at the top of the throttlebody.
2) Realized that I did not have the capacitor between the right wires, so switched them to the G+/G- (I accidentally had them on the other set) I do have a question on this, see below.
3) I realized that those variable resistors on the board are probably there for a reason, and after reading this thread: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ror+adjustable , I adjusted them all the way down. The lowest they went was about 0.2 ohm, is that okay?
4) Checked the shield cable from the CAS.. I probed the end by the cas, and it's grounding out according to the meter, don't ask me where, though!

After I did this, I was able to switch the settings to 1,3,7,9 without it freaking out, and now the tach reads 300-500 RPM when cranking, and it sounded a lot better when I did this, too.

Now, my question about that capacitor (remember, I'm using Error*'s card, if you still are familiar with that), when I add that cap, is it okay just to put it between the lines where they come into the board? Or do I need to put them actually somewhere connected directly to the LM1815 chip somewhere?

I did ground pin #14, on the LM1815 as suggested previously, but that didn't seem to affect anything.

Also; I thought this was a little odd: when I use the timing light on L1, It doesn't seem to go off very much, but when I use it on L2, it's very consistant and just what I'd expect... what's really weird, though, is that when I put the coil on a spark plug just grounded some where, it sparks like crazy. I don't know if it's too shielded or what, but I'm not sure if my timing is set where it needs to be. I basically stabbed it "by the book," but now that it's using the 1,3,7,9 settings, do I need to stab it some other way? If so, what way?

muythaibxr

They should be fine where you put them.

That is required if you ever decide to go to ms2/extra 2.1.x or higher. I recommend doing that as at least my engines (20v 4age and rx7, 13b) run better on ms2/extra.

If you stab the CAS as stock, you'll want to change your trigger angle to 65 degrees, and use the 11,1,5,7 settings.

With the settings you have now, you have to stab it 1 tooth off (so take the top off the CAS, and make sure that you stab it with tooth #3 directly aligned with the Ne sensor).

This remaining issue is probably what's keeping you from firing up.

Also, I typically use time-based cranking timing with the 11,1,5,7 settings, and set it to crank at 0 degrees.

With the 1,3,7,9 settings, I set it for trigger return, and set the timing to 0 degrees as well, and just adjust the CAS until the timing is right.

Most likely the fact that you are running 1,3,7,9 with the stock CAS stab is what's keeping you from firing up. With those settings spark will be WAY late (up to 60 degrees late). With the stock CAS stab, tooth number 1 will be at about 5 degrees BTDC, but you're set up for tooth #1 to be at 60 degrees... so it'll wait a really long time before firing after it sees tooth #1.

Ken

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Ken,

Thanks for clarifying all the settings. It sounded like it was going to start up last night, but the battery died. I'm going to let it charge up for today, and give it a go tonight.

Thanks again!

Eagle7

You've probably fouled one or more plugs by now. Try some fresh ones in L1 and L2.

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Good call.. I'll have to pick some up.

muythaibxr

People say that, but I've never fouled even 1 set of plugs...

Every time you are unsuccessful at starting... push the pedal all the way down, and run in flood-clear mode... That will burn out any fuel in the engine still, and help keep the plugs from getting fouled.

Ken

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Quick Update: I didn't get a chance to play at all this week, as I was too busy. I did notice that I have a gas leak coming from one of the hard lines off the tank, so I'll have to fix that before proceeding. I've got to leave for about 3 weeks for work, so I won't have a chance to look at it for at least a month. I did grab a dizzy and coils, I figure I'm going to throw them on just to get the car started, make sure that it will idle and I can get a good start map figured out before troubleshooting the ignition more.

Thanks for all the help so far, see ya in a month!

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Alright, I'm back from my month long Rx7 hiatus, but ended up helping a guy down in Australia get his 13B powered Holden Gemini while I was down there for work, so that was fun!

Back to this project, though, I just got all the fuel leaks worked out. I also grabbed my old dizzy+coils setup from my last Megasquirted 7, before I did this ignition mod.

I'm assuming I can't just plug in the Dizzy and coils and have it work properly, what settings/wires do I need to modify to make the MS ignore the daughterboard while I test it?

Thanks!

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

HORRRRRAAAAYYYY!!!

Thanks to all of your help, Ken, and Aaron Cake's writeups, the car now runs with the Megasquirt controlling the spark and fuel!

Since I got back, I didn't try to put in the Dizzy, I just took a deep breath and traced back everything you said to do, Ken, I found a few questionable connections and stuff that looked good enough a month ago when I did them (like the cap I put in line)..

I also did a straight start-over flash with the firmware, and stepped through Aaron's Guide ( http://www.aaroncake.net/RX-7/megasquirt/ProgramMS1.asp ), to make sure I didn't miss a step.

After a bit of deflooding, she started right up! The Tach + MS's Tach match each other perfectly, and it will now start up repeatably!

Thanks for all of the help... Next time I'm in your area, Ken, I'm buying you a beer or 24

muythaibxr

No problem.

Ken