AdrianE

I have an E11v2 on my 1995 RX7 (FD) and have had lots of trouble just getting the engine to start and then idle. The day before I installed the E11v2 the car ran smoothly on a Microtech LT8S and had no starting up problems. I have re-checked all the Haltech wiring, set up the Tooth Offset (ie. 11) and Trigger Angle BTDC (ie. 95deg) and used a timing gun on both Leading and Trailing to check the ignition timing when cranking (ie. with timing locked to zero).

But in the datalogs I took while the engine was cranking, I discovered that the trailing ignition is alternating between firing at 120deg BTDC and firing at 5deg ATDC. This happens in all the datalogs I took. I'm not sure if the trailing ignition values in the datalogs are just plain WRONG! Or that it really is firing at 120deg BTDC!

Has anybody else tried logging trailing ignition on their E6's or E8's? Could someone please try this and reply to this post. I asked Haltech support but they ignored this question (although they are helpful in other areas).

I'm attaching one of my datalogs (that shows this problem) to this post. It's in the zipped file.

Thanks,

Adrian

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

First off, your trigger angle and tooth offset isnt right. You should be around the neighborhood of 65 degrees trigger angle and 5 tooth offset. Also, the way the E11 fires the stock ignition system in a REW engine, using the stock ignition module is like this: Ign1 to both leading (or channel 1 of the module, Ign2 to T1, Ign3 to T2.

To zero the timing you will need to put your timing light on T1 and lock the timing at -5 on Leading and do a 15 degree split so the T1 fires at -20.

If you hook up the timing light on T1 and the mark is 180 degrees out your trailing wires or ignition connections are backwards, just invert them.

AdrianE

Claudio, I've checked the ignition wires again, and I found that IGN1 (yellow/blk) which is Leading goes to my MSD Digital7+ unit, IGN3 (yellow/orange) which is Trailing1 goes to Trailing1 on the standard igniter, IGN4 (yellow/green) which is Trailing2 goes to Trailing2 on the standard igniter. In the E11v2 manual (p143), it confirms that for Waste Spark mode, I need to use IGN1, IGN3 and IGN4. Here IGN2 is not used.

I did try a load of different tooth offsets and trigger angles before I found a way I could calculate the correct trigger angle. It's a long explanation, so I won't go into details, but I confirmed it using a timing gun on Leading1 first, and then on Trailing1 (I set the Leading/Trailing split to 0deg). So there's no way I've got Trailing1 and 2 firing 180deg out of phase!

The sparks from both of the Trailing plugs are hopelessly underpowered compared to the MSD's on both Leading plugs. Every time I crank the engine it starts but runs really rough, as though Trailing isn't firing properly, and it dies after a few seconds. Before I fitted the MSD the engine would hardly fire at all, not even enough to start it. There's nothing wrong with the engine as I drove it (using an LT8S) the day before I wired up the E11v2. It's just that it seems the ignition is weaker when the I'm using the E11v2. With the LT8S, it was just occasionly that I had starting problems!

I also emailed Haltech support again, who checked my fuel and ignition maps, plus some of my datalogs. They made a few alterations to my Maps (mostly < 1000rpm), and seem to think my Maps are near enough to work OK. BUT they did admit the Logging of Trailing in Halwin (v1.71) is not correct. The 120deg values I had in my logs are wrong! So other people may have the same 'bad data' in their E11 (or E6, E8) logs...

slo

iTrader: (1)

I am using an FD CAS and front cover on an E8, using Ign 1 for lead, IGN 3 for T1 IGN 4 for T2, tooth offset of 9 with a trigger angle of 95 gains at o filters at 1.

The trigger settings also effect trigger angle make sure its set to reluctor/falling

crispeed

With the E-8/11 ecu's since I don't use a fixed trigger/dwell angle, to compensate for reluctor retard/drift at higher rpms I normally start with around 84deg trigger angle at idle with a tooth offset of 3. The only difference to a fixed angle setup would be that the actual trigger angle would decrease as rpm increases.
So basically an '84'deg trigger angle with a tooth offset of '3' is what works for me with the FD CAS.

crispeed

Which firmware/software version are you uisng?
That tooth offset seems pretty off for me.

AdrianE

Why does the trigger angle decrease then? At what rpm does this become noticeable? Is it just the Haltech reluctors that have this problem, or does this happen on Microtech's too?

slo

iTrader: (1)

The newest firmware, ive done some experimenting and had the ign zero with the same trigger angle at a few different tooth offsets.

crispeed

When magnetic/reluctors are involved due to the way they work that is normal. I could explain with drawings the different type of signals given from different types of triggers but have no clue how to draw anything on a computer.
Just about every ECU manufacturer out there have some sought of correction to compensate for it. Not all gives the user the option to change it to suit your particular application. Some ECU manufacturers do the home work for the end user and set it up to suit the particular application. In haltech case prior to the present line of ecu's E-8-11 this option was not user adjustable so what would happen as rpm increased there was ignition timing drift mainly timing retard. Depending on application timing would retard as much as 10 deg at high rpms.

AdrianE

Do even Microtech ECU's have this reluctor 'correction' factor built in? My LT8S (flying lead) didn't need any trigger angle or tooth offset to be set. It must have (config) settings built in, for the FD3S engine's CAS! Does the timing still drift a bit at high rpms's though?
Also, how do you measure and compensate for ignition timing drift at high rpm's? Is it just a case of holding the rpm at say 6000 (with no load) with a timing gun, then comparing the reading to what you logged from the ECU (ie. at exactly the same time)? Then repeating this process at 7000rpm, 8000 etc until you reach the rev limit you set.

AdrianE

I just read a thread on this forum about the ignition split and how Haltech ecu's are supposed to have large errors in ignition timing at high rpm's. Aparrently one of the tech guys on this forum (MaxtheMan) has seen a comparison of expected (ie. from the mapped ignition value) and actual ignition values; and there is quite a difference too!

Some people seem to think that rotor 'slop' (ie. the play between rotor and the e-shaft, which affects CAS timing) limits the resolution of ignition timing. Other people say its the Haltech ecu that limits accuracy, and that other ecu's are more accurate! Is this because of the way the Haltech ecu handles the Home/Trigger CAS signals, or some other factor?

When the ecu outputs to trailing ignition, is there another error (ie. as well as the (leading) ignition error) factor due to the way that the ecu calculates trailing ignition values? Or does the ecu just calculate an offset time (in ms) to the leading ignition value?

Has anyone logged evidence of expected vs. actual ignition timing values on the E6/E8/E11 ecu's? Also has anyone done this for ecu's other than Haltech's? I would very much like to see this evidence...

Adrian

slo

iTrader: (1)

I think its the reluctors themselves, and the reluctor adapter (the haltech has circuitry which converts the reluctor signal into the type of signal produced by a hall effect sensor) which introduce the inaccuracy.

Haltech sells hall effect sensors and magnets which will fit in place of the stock FD reluctors.

BTW my tooth offset/trigger angle of 9/95 was due to wiring the trail coils backwards. Leadings would also zero at 3/93 with trailing 180 out of phase.