Haltech Elite 2500 with NSP software

I was wondering if anyone has a target lamda map I could use for a 13B big streetport with big single turbo. Not sure if it helps but I am running the AEM smart coils as well as ID 725 and ID2000 injectors. Looking to compare the single turbo haltech file with someone that has a proper one for my porting. I am trying to tune to the haltech one but when in cruise at a bit higher rpm (4-5k) it feels the 13.2 is a tad rich for my motor and its not smooth when maintaining throttle like it was before on the platinum 2k.

 

Im just tuning my large streetport 1500 on NSP.

My feeling is that because of the 02 feedback lag the underlying "Base" fuel table (VE) is the issue. At 4-5,000rpm tiny variations in TPS have noticeable changes in MAP value. So the O2 trimming value has to keep changing.

Once I started using long term trimming and applying it to the "Base" table to correct the "Base" table to the "Target Lambda" table my large streetport the car began revving and driving smoothly.

That said, I think all the Haltech base timing maps are very bad and make the car run horribly.

Once you have verified your timing with timing lock and a timing light, load a proper timing map from anywhere. There wont be negative timing values in a proper map.

Also, verify your trigger settings.
If you are running a stock Mazda ECU harness (or reproduction of) the CAS grounds are tied together and you enable "ground reference".

If you have an aftermarket harness and each CAS ground goes to their respective pin on ECU you disable "ground reference" and then enable theTDC offset angle table" and again lock timing and use your gun to find the values necessary for timing to stay exactly on the mark while you rev the engine.

Example, mine required -5.0 deg @ 9,000rpm linearized down to 0 at 1,000rpm.

Before I disabled "ground reference" with my rywire harness I had knock- especially with haltech base ignition map.

Lastly, back to fueling and the Target Lambda map.
At 4,000 rpm and up I would err on the rich side especially in the lower vacuum.

My large streetport wouldnt tolerate the lean free rev range of the base 1500 single turbo Target Lambda map.
the loads outside free rev were good afrs.

Where the engine free revs to with no load 13.5 to 13.2 is good till 4,000rpm and then actually leave it richer above that (mid/high 12s) as the base TL map has it.

These respective values should taper almost a full AFR point richer heading toward 0 vacuum. This keeps EGTs in check while doing burnouts and such. Otherwise, you will wear the sides off the apex seals where they ride over the Leading spark plug.

The base TL map has 0 vacuum column correct.

Any driveability issue on large streetport try adding fuel first. Once you've ported the exhaust upward you have lots of egr at low rpm and low load.

Knocking timing back at low rpm can help you drive with more TPS (so less egr) and it will be smoother, but sluggish. More timing will feel more lively, but sometimes you will hit the cyclical misfires (typically under 2,000rpm) and have to open the throttle more to dillute the egr and break the cycle.

I err on the retarded/smooth side because I dont race under 2,000rpm.

 

Low pulswidth/cruise problems very regularly end up being injector dead time discrepencies. Many cars differ even if you're using ID injectors and their very well done profiling - I recently fixed a clients long standing light throttle misfire no matter the target AFR by adding .02 ms from 14v down - he'd been tuning his car solo and it'd been plaguing him for over a year.

 

I am still new to all this tuning. I have not played with ignition timing at all even on my platinum so I wont say im too comfortable with that and the limits of the motor. I ended up just putting what the tuner had from the platinum tune in the NSP ignition boxes and have only really played with fuel and cold start correction as well as the setup with all the components I have. Ive been working off the original haltech fuel map so as of now it looks really ugly with high and low spots. Ill post what I have so far. As for the trigger wheel I am running the FFE RX8 Hall tigger wheel and last time I did the timing it was dead on. I have spent the last few days researching more about the ECU as I have a drive now to learn more and try to do as much of the tune myself as possible. I will upload my tune so someone can take a quick look. I dont know if the ignition timing will look weird or not as the tuner seemed to have very different numbers than the haltech base map.

Aslo this car is just my baby, so mainly street driving. I dont track the car or anything like that and only once in awhile enjoy a full pull somewhere. So Im really looking for semi fuel efficient and just nice to drive. I appreciate all the info so far and as I've been learning more and more these past few days and things are starting to make a bit more sense.

 

You did the right thing putting in the previous ignition map over the elite base ignition. If you want a little added safety you can select a column (from the top) and page down the entire column or rows of columns.

Example- 9psi column page down 1 degree all rpm. Next columns (12 to 30psi) page down twice for -2 degrees all rpm.

 

I dont have any inside information, but Im sure the tuners at Haltech know the basics of tuning.

Therefore I believe the bad Haltech elite base timing maps were a management decision done over the head of their tuners.

Probably someone installed plug and play, didnt check timing with light- had something way to advanced and blew a new engine, so management said put timing #s in so this cant happen again.

When you have negative timing numbers and a big trailing split (elite ignition base map) at what rpm does the trailing ignition ignite the compression stroke. My recent experience says around 3,000rpm.

Id like to see it modeled.

 

I should do this to the number I already have in there? I will give this a try. Ill have to spend some time researching the ignition timing to have a better understanding with it and feel more comfortable with playing around but safely.

 

Thank you dguy!
I should know better than to assume big street port issues I couldnt tune out with my E6K couldnt be tuned out with the elite.

In fact I had already had some small progress adjusting low rpm injector angle which maybe should have told me the i.d. dead times werent written in stone.

 

I had just told the ECU which injectors I'm using and I guess I assumed the dead times would be correct. I can look at playing with those a tiny bit as well. does anyone know what they should be for ID725 and ID2000?

 

https://blog.turbosource.com/2012/11...mic-flow-data/

https://help.injectordynamics.com/su...075013-haltech

I found the ID725 on Turbosource old Blog and the ID2000 on their own website.

I was looking at the NSP injector data and it does look slightly different. I would call ID Injector directly to confirm which is correct.

 

Iceman this is a good Idea...maybe the haltech ones are off and thats where a little of my problem lies. Once done work will look into it. Appreciate it!

 

So you're right that they are not the same numbers. I am still waiting to hear back from ID but I did start entering the info into a different saved tune just in case I am going that route. I do want to add the short pulse width adder as well if I can get that info for the 725's

Edit. Went to put the short pulse adder info in but realized the NSP software is looking for (ms) where the ID2000 shows it in %. Have to see if I can get the numbers for both from ID

 

Update: Heard back from ID. Got the proper info for the ECU but sadly the 725's are too old to get the Pulse Width Adder info so will have to shut that setting off which sucks as it has a solid chance of helping the cruise range. Maybe its time to upgrade the primaries. Ill get the info entered and see if the new dead times helps at all

 

Tis the little things that get overlooked when we get to use well made modern gear.


Even without the small pulsewidth adder information I'd be willing to bet that there are tweaks that can be made on top of the ID profiling that may fix your issue - under dead times add a couple tenths to wherever your car is idling/cruising under pressure differential, don't mess with it under boost.

 

Does it run any different with her corrected values for the 725 and 2000s?

 

Was able to get the new numbers in and took it for a little rip until I lost both fuel pumps. The relay actually died after many years of use but I will say for sure the new numbers feel much smoother so Im sure I can get this sorted now. It seemed a bit more AFR stable at cruising now and not jumping as much while maintaining throttle. I was also given a more chill target lamda map from the local tuner to work with. Not so crazy rich in the low rpm areas. I was only able to fix the pump issue at the end of the day so hoping there is time to take her out again

 

Always something. 😆 Keep us updated.

 

Spent a bunch of time this weekend just taking logs and fixing the map and have got the car extremely drivable now. I am finding in a few boxes under very light throttle like 2-6% my afr's still love to jump around. When I go over the logs it looks like its while in the same box but ill swing from 13.6-15.2 constantly. However 3rd gear crusing seems spot on and steady. Its possible I just need to open a new column around the manifold pressure to deal with the jumping. Either way its super smooth to drive now and its just the little fine tuning for now. Did do one third gear pull and felt amazing but was getting down to 9AFR at the top end so need to deal with that as well. The transition to the secondaries is basically a non existent sensation compared to the platinum.

 

Glad to hear you are going in the right direction. Sounds like you will have some fun things it yourself.

 

Dropped the car off last night to a buddy to get some welding fab work done, so I took a couple logs on the way there. If anyone wants to take a look at them and the tune ill upload it here. There are much much smarter people on here that might be able to fix the map up or maybe catch something I missed. I have quite enjoyed learning a lot more this time with tuning the elite. I did quite a bit on the platinum but most of the setup was done by what I was told online but this time I did it with an understanding of why im setting things the way I am

 

Something is very off if you need to run 80% VE to at idle. Oh, and look at your LTT in that same area - it's pulling a chunk of fuel out - even applying the trim VE is sitting in the 70s which is higher than I'd think is possible. If you're not familiar (no intention to be rude here) the VE table is what you're telling the ECU the engine can process in that particular cell, not how much fuel you want to give the engine - the ECU is figuring out how much fuel to give it on the back end.

 

Not taking anything the wrong way as I am here to learn. Yes I could have just paid a tuner but I wanted to understand the ECU more and feel comfortable taking care of the basics myself. The VE table seemed like not so weird numbers minus the idle range but I guess I didnt think it too odd as I figured its just how I needed to get the AFR down to 13.5 where my car seems happy to idle. I am not quite sure what would be considered wrong at this point. I was pretty sure I had most of that all sorted.

 

So I have gone thru everything that I understand in the ECU and all seems well. Well I was racking my brain I am curious if not having idle air control valve would be a reason for the higher VE? Or if anyone else see's something incorrect in the tune and can lead me into a direction to start learning about. I feel the rest of the map VE would also seem high if something was wrong but this is just my small understanding of it.

 

As I've been saying - if physically everything is well accounted for and your on boost numbers are OK but your low pulsewidth numbers (idle, cruise, vacuum) are suspiciously high (102 @ 5000 and -60 kPa is whack) there is something wrong with what/when your ECU thinks the injector is flowing at low pulsewidths. That could be dead times, that could be low pulsewidth adder, that could be a miscal in fuel pressure or sensor, or - this happens with poor grounding or supply at times.

If you're curious look at a Haltech base map. Street ports that most people show me flow more up top and less down low generally but only to the tune of ~10-15% at max in my experience - I'm also not saying just use a base map and add to it, I'm saying look at the trends and apply them.

 

Completely understand where youre coming from. Ive spent the last week learning a bunch more and once I got an actual understanding of VE I agree the number doesnt make sense. The car is still not in my possession to check one or two things while its getting some fab work. I noticed in the ECU my base pressure is stated at 45psi but I think that is incorrect. I believe its actually at 43.5. Had someone go over my dead times and such and they are all 100% what ID states them as. I have low pulsewidth adder off as the ID725 are too old and ID doesnt have that info. I was told it shouldnt be extremely odd for the VE to be a tiny bit higher at idle with a 90mm throttle body with no IAC and being my idle is at 1400 with a big streetport. Yes the 80 is too high but when adding the long term the lower 70s is also a little higher then the accepted amount. Im hoping the base fuel was actually off and maybe that will clear up the rest of the idle issue. Also the flow rate numbers were off. So im guessing once I confirm base fuel pressure and upload the new flow rate we should be good. Just a waiting game now