Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

87 tii block with n/a rotors and ra super seals with used housings, n/a motor for now, e6k with 650 prim's and 1000's secondaries with stock coils. I used the stock motor base map to get an idea on the fuel and the haltech has started a motor before so it seems to be wired right. Basically the timeing light shows that every now and then the spark is not there. Sometimes its sparking and then other times it takes acouple of seconds in between sparks. It almost starts but is just missing something to completely start. Also when i see the rpms, its showing 60, and every now and then would go to 120 so i was thinking maybe its the starter since it has been worked hard, but its hard to find a new one so that will have to wait a couple of days. the comp is around 80 on both rotors right now and i just thought that maybe because of the used housings with new seals, it probably won't start on itself. I bumped the fuel higher and higher and it got closer to start but its at like 15+ ms and the exhaust is like pure fuel but none on the plugs. any input on these would be much appreciated. Thanks

classicauto

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First problematic thing that jumps out to me is no motor sould be cranking over at 60rpm. More like 150-200. I'd check your gain and filter settings and play with them and see if you can get some consistent signal. Unless your battery is dying out and the engine IS indeed cranking over at 60rpm.

Next, which plugs are dry? You ARE pulling the leadings yes? With 15ms during cranking there should be about a liter of gas in your exhaust by now.

How coated in assembly lube was the engine? If its not simply basted with assembly lube/etc. then you will have very poor compression for initial start up. If you're confident that its wired properly and everything is working the way it should (fuel injectors new/functional?) then it may be time to pull start it.

Lastly on the intermittent spark, best way to gauge that Ive found is by usingthe ACTUAL spark plug. I can crank the car over with one timing light, get intermitent spark (meaning on the timing light) then try my old one and get lots, vice versa. Pull the plug, ground it, crank it, watch it. Best way.

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

Yea it wierd because it sounds alot faster than 60 rpms but the tach on the cluster bounces the same as it did when it read up in the 350 range. Yea the leading plugs i pull, and it did have some lube in it but not alot. Its the one that chris built in the 2nd gen archive topic if anyone needs to see it. I have thought about pulling it, just want to make sure im around the right fuel so it doesn't lean out.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Well, verify that the primaries ARE firing fuel (pull the upper mani. and yoink the primary rail, crank it over and see if you get gas spraying)

If you are indeed getting fuel and spark and your timing is somewhere close to proper in the haltech, (the CAS should be stabbed dead on with the engine) then it *should* start.

If you're doubly, nay, tripely sure that everything is wired correctly I'd play with your gain and filter until you get accurate and non-jumpy RPM signal. Then try pull starting it.

Houstonderk

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Yea i took all the injectors out and checked the injectors when i swapped the 650s back in because i had 4 1000cc's in which was too much.

Houstonderk

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Well i got it showing around 260 to 320 now. Just ordered a starter since mine didn't pass those tests the parts stores have. Hopefully can get it running with the new starter.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

That sounds high for cranking now....

How is the CAS wired?

Chances are if everything IS wired correctly and you've got a close enough map to fire it but it still doesn't fire - its just too low on compression. In which case you'll go through more starters trying to get it to pur.

Maybe simply try pull starting it. If you're really worried about leaning out (I'd back off the cranking map a bit 15ms is LOADS of fuel from 650's) then bump the trims up 5%.

If it doesn't fire up after 200-400 meters of pulling then you've got other problems (possible wiring/tuning related) to fix.

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

What is the tooth offset part? it had 11 but i've actually had it running when i change it to 5, but its kindof rough and no throttle response. I just put the limiter on 2000 since it would go really high and started leaning it out and no smoking anymore.

Question thought, has anyone went through plugs alot? As in i have changed them 3 times because they just stop sparking normally and spark once after the key is turned off, but then I put new plugs in and it runs until the next day and then the same thing. coils ohmed out okay and so did the cas.

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

Oh and forgot to mention that when it was idling there was smoke which was from running rich, so leaned out some and the fuel smell smoke went away but for some reason the leaner i went the wideband would go more rich to the point where it was all the way rich and instead of some thottle response theres none now.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Well, I was reffering to the gain and filter settings in your trigger setup page, not the tooth offset in the ignition page.

But something is a miss if you can lean it out (LESSEN the value in the cell on the map) and get a richer reading on the wideband.

Are you sure you are altering the cell that the map is reading from at that rpm/load?

Glad to hear it started anyway, what was the problem?

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

Yea the gain didn't do much at all. Thats why i wondered about that tooth offset count. Left it at 11 like it was and almost started then went down and at 5 it would start with light throttle but it was that stock motor map that I altered the fuel .

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

I'd leave the offset at 11........

Firstly though I'd try a base map thats made for a half bridge. A local engine builder in Ontario here has idled 1/2BP's on a stock N/A ECU......but that doesn't mean its the best way to do it.

Get a map that has the correct timing curves and fuel for your setup. A fresh engine shouldn't have any trouble starting once its had enough run time to seat the seals.....and I'm going to go on a limb and assume that when you had it running, you kept it running for a while?

Houstonderk

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Yea around 10 minutes of so to check for leaks and all. But the whole spark plugs messing up so fast has got me all dazed. There never fouled with fuel and some have the electrodes in the center cracked. I thought it might have been a bad batch but one of the trailings is doing it again.

Houstonderk

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Well I've been trying to get up with brian for a base map for a half-bridge, but he hasn't been on for acouple of days now.

Houstonderk

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Well im guessing that tooth offset is ignition events, because at 3 it sparks fast and 11 is kindof slow. I got a good map now and it still does the same thing though, but it can't be a compression issue if it starts on 5 though could it? It does just stay reving but i had the limiter at 3k so it didn't go too high, but the comp is around 70 which is pretty low though.

RETed

If 11 is the proper offset, and you change it to 5, you basically just flipped the trailing plugs to fire backwards.
This is why it'll still run...sorta.
It's DANGEROUS to run it this way under any significant load.

PLEASE USE A TIMING GUN TO SET THIS!
You really should not be ******* with it once it's set properly!


-Ted

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

OK,

The 11 tooth offset is what it should have. Please elaborate on your CAS install method, there might be a missing link in there somewhere.

The compression sounds low, but if its running then its probably just gotta break-in so the seals can seat into the housings.

What happens when you start the car with an 11 tooth offset?

Edit: and what ever happened with the cranking RPM? Could you get a solid reading (around 160-250) after playing with gain and filter? Reading back over the posts it seems like you went from trying to adjust filter/gain directly into modifying the tooth offset?

And what is the trigger angle value? Has the timing been zero'd?

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

I line the yellow mark(farthest to the right, line the dimple on the cas and installed it like that. I made a mark on the tooth on the top where its lined up so its easier to line up. When its at 11 it will crank over and the timing light will go off once maybe twice when cranking which doesn't start the car. At 3 it sparks pretty normal and the rpms are around 180 to 280 and the engine just pops back but will not start. When cranking I cannot ever get the marks to stay lined up unless its at 5 which is why it was set to that but had it limited real low so there was no load or high rev. Took the injectors out and the two prims are firing at the same time with it on staged which is good, and the plugs die pretty fast which is why i stopped using 5, but it only start that way which sucks.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

First, I wouldn't recommend using the timing light while cranking as a good method timing the car. And changing the trigger angle value is what will make the marks line up....not the offset. If you adjust the offset to make the timing marks match the spark without adjusting the trigger angle, you're effectively just making the spark happen enough times that it lights up the timing marks simply due to the fact that its sparking too many times.

And cranking RPM's should be solid. They shouldn't variate too much (as you seem to indicate with "180 to 280") when cranking. The starter motor is only going to turn the engine at a given RPM depending on the battery voltage, compression etc. But either way, during cranking you should only see one specific number, very consistently, in the Haltech software. If you don't - you have signal problems.

What are the gain and filter settings you have now?

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

Home is 1 and the other is 2. I've double checked the wiring at the cas and it is correct also. What kind of ms should a half-bidge run about anyway? Someone told me aroun 2.5 with 550s at idle while others its around 4.5 to 5 which is a big difference.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Well on my 750's at 1300 rpm idling (12.3:1 AFR) I'm seeing about 2.8ms. I'd suspect that with 550's you'd be up closer to 4.0ms

I'd suspect the CAS wiring is fine since you can get it to run.

There should be 4 gain and filter settings. Two for the Home siganl (gain and filter) and two for the trigger signal (gain and filter) what are they at now?

Do you have a pic of what your CAS looks like when its installed? (Before the engine is moved from that position) Because that would elimanate a few possibilities.

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

I've seen that hitman sight and it was the factory way setting which means it should be 24 and 11. My laptop is at the house but my e6k has only a trigger and gain setting not 4, but i have to look at it again at lunch.

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

Yea its only got a trigger gain which is at 1 and home gain which is at 2.

classicauto

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my bad, I was thinking of the X.

Just explain again what kind of RPM readings you're getting while cranking. Is it a solid and consistent reading? Or does it change while cranking the engine?

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

It changes from liek 180 to 230 but it was at like 11.8 volts so its charging right now. But thats at 5 when at 11 it shows a steady 60 and doesn't make any kind of noise except cranking.