Haltech Its Christmas, MAP help needed.
Thread Starter
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 156
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From: UK
Its Christmas, MAP help needed.
Hi and Merry Christmas.
Seen as its Christmas please can someone help out.
I have a GT3540 set-up (0.7/0.84) on my 3rd gen. 550 and 1600cc injectors, standard engine with IC, Intake, fuel mods etc. Car is run with a Haltech E6K.
My map is bad and the car runs very rough. I have spent a fair bit of time trying to improve things but am not getting very far. The original base map was for a T-66 and has been modified.
Please can someone with a similar set-up share a map with me. I will send my map to anyone interested in looking at it.
Thanks and Merry Christmas
Martin
Seen as its Christmas please can someone help out.
I have a GT3540 set-up (0.7/0.84) on my 3rd gen. 550 and 1600cc injectors, standard engine with IC, Intake, fuel mods etc. Car is run with a Haltech E6K.
My map is bad and the car runs very rough. I have spent a fair bit of time trying to improve things but am not getting very far. The original base map was for a T-66 and has been modified.
Please can someone with a similar set-up share a map with me. I will send my map to anyone interested in looking at it.
Thanks and Merry Christmas
Martin
Dyno Guy
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
A little help
Martin,
The first thing you need to do before messing with any mapping is verify that you’ve got the ECU properly configured, and be sure that your installation is correct. This ranges from checking all your wires on all sensors, injectors, ignition outputs, triggers, etc. Unplug the harness from everything on the engine as well as the ECU itself, and do a wire by wire, pin by pin continuity check. Be sure that there isn’t some hardware issue that’s causing problem before you start chasing gremlins inside the machine.
Once you’ve established that your installation work is correct, make sure that the ignition system is serviceable. I’ve found that more often than not, inexplicable tuning issues are usually due to a problem with the ignition system, very rarely with the injectors. Be sure that your ignition triggers are properly set up, and that you’ve got each of the coils firing to the correct plugs, etc. Disable the injector outputs in the software, and lock timing at somewhere between 10 and 20 degrees BTDC, and verify the timing with a good non-dialback timing light. The output from the timing light should be strong and consistent, firing each time the rotor approaches it’s compression position. Look at the engine RPMs on the engine data page, and look for the cranking speed to be fairly consistent. You shouldn’t see an RPM deviation of more than 10 to 20 percent while cranking with a fully charged battery.
That brings up an often overlooked problem. It’s not uncommon for guys to crank a battery nearly dead in the process of an install. It’s important that the battery has sufficient charge and not be allowed to run down excessively. Have a GOOD quality battery charger on hand to make sure the battery stays up. HOWEVER, and this is extremely important in order to avoid damaging the ECU, DO NOT USE a jump/boost setting on the battery while the ECU is connected! There is no reason at all to use a battery charger to ‘jump start’ a Haltech equipped car with a dead battery. Charge the battery at the 10 amp setting, then disconnect the charger before cranking or attempting to start the car. The reason for this is that most battery chargers do a poor job of regulating output current and voltage. They cannot quickly react to the change in load that exists in the transition between cranking load and no load. The voltage spikes momentarily, and the ECU is damaged. Since it’s a matter of voltage, not current, the fuse cannot protect the ECU. The ECU must then be returned to Haltech for repair, and is not covered under warranty. Take my word for it.
Anyway, once you’re SURE that all the hardware, wiring, and software configuration are correct, it’s time to attempt to start the engine. There are a lot of people who have installed the E6K on cars and engines like your own, so finding a map file from a successful running vehicle shouldn’t be tough to do. HOWEVER, I caution you that this should only be used as a starting point, and the car should NOT be driven until the engine is properly tuned. Getting a map from a friend should be nothing more than a way to get the car to start and run on the first try. It should only serve to prevent you from fuel-fouling a bunch of plugs while you figure out how much prime and post start fuel to dial in to get the engine to start and idle. Accept the fact that the car MUST be tuned before you can drive it prior to turning the key for the first time. Whether you tune it or you have somebody else do it, driving the car on a bad tune will damage your engine. Be it immediately or over a period of time, the car will drive like **** and you will hurt the engine. So, after you’ve promised yourself not to rush the process, it’s time to go for the first fire.
For sake of instruction, we’ll assume that you’re using a rough map from a running car configured like your own. This will allow us to assume that the timing maps will be close enough to get you started. If you’re starting from scratch, use an educated guess and the QuickMap function of the ignition tables to create a base map automatically. I’m not a rotary expert, so I’m ill equipped to make any initial timing suggestions. However, if you know what the base advance, total advance, and at what point there is full advance from the OEM specs for your engine, you’ve got enough to create a crude ignition map that will allow you to start and begin to tune. I suggest subtracting 2-4 degrees from the OEM base timing figure to start with, then add it back after the fuel maps have been roughed out, then tune again. My experience is with V-8s (save the piston engine hatred for another member, I don’t play that ****, and I’m the one with the answers here) so confer with fellow rotary engine enthusiasts for guidance on base ignition timing issues if you’re not otherwise familiar.
Once you’ve got the software configured and a timing map to start with, it’s time to start the engine. Make sure the battery is fully charged and that you’ve re-enabled the injectors after having checked your timing and triggers earlier. Have your laptop and E6K software on and running with the main fuel map open. Attempt to start the engine as you normally would, keeping in mind that the computer is not going to automatically rev the engine to 3000 RPM or whatever to keep the plugs from fouling. You’ll need to do this on your own, but don’t gas it before the engine tries to catch, otherwise you’re likely to flood it even worse. As you’re cranking with your foot OFF the accelerator, strike the ‘home’ key on your laptop. If the engine doesn’t fire after the first 10 seconds of cranking, figure out why. Striking the ‘home’ key highlighted the bar under the carrot (little triangle pointer thing) that floats above the fueling bars on your screen. It indicates the point where the engine speed and load meet at that particular moment. By pressing the ‘home’ key during cranking, you’ve highlighted the bar affecting fuel as you crank the engine for a start. This is where you’ll want to adjust for more or less fuel, depending on which way you find you need to go. If you smell lots of gasoline in the exhaust, the answer is quite easy. Decrease the fuel at this bar (press the ‘page down’ button a time or two) and one bar to ether side of it (more and less manifold pressure) about 5% and try again. If you don’t smell much fuel, or none at all, be sure that you’ve got fuel pressure and that the injectors are plugged in. Slowly increase cranking fuel at that point by pressing the ‘page up’ key a time or two, but don’t overdo it! When you’ve finally got the fuel close enough for the engine to fire, and you’ve got it started, KEEP IT RUNNING! Things will happen very fast, and you will probably be very excited, but you have to know ahead of time how to react. Be aware of what’s going on under the hood by having a friend or helper watch for leaks and/or fires. Either you or your helper note the color of exhaust, whether it’s smoky or not, and how much. Unless you’ve got a wideband (and I pray you do, if you’re going to tune this beyond no-load power settings) you’ll need to use the color of your exhaust to be an indicator of just HOW too far rich you are. If the map is too lean, the car will not run. Too rich, and you’ll smoke like a diesel and foul the plugs. This is why it’s important to keep the engine running and know how the tuning process works.
With the engine running (or trying to run,) keep hitting the ‘home’ key to highlight the bar beneath the carrot at the point the engine is running. Try to get the engine to run at 1500 or 2000 RPM at first, and start tuning here and work your way down to your desired idle. Doing it this way will help to avoid fuel fouling the plugs should the mixture be overly rich. Most likely, you won’t have a steady idle, but rather the engine will try to hunt. Try to hold your foot steady to produce a stable idle, but don’t fan the pedal trying to chase it. You’ll just make it worse. If the engine is too lean, the engine will decelerate and the manifold pressure will increase. The carrot will swing towards a pressure further toward atmospheric (100 kpa) until it gets enough fuel for the engine to run, then the engine speed increases and manifold pressure goes down (toward 0 kpa.) When the carrot reaches the point where there is not enough fuel, the engine will again decelerate and the carrot will hunt for more fuel. Note where this low point is, and highlight that bar and increase the fueling until the carrot either no longer stops on it (IOW, goes further toward 0 kpa as it cycles back and forth) or the idle stabilizes at that point. If you make major changes to one point and manage to get the engine to NOT hunt from that point, you’ll need to soften the transition between that bar and those above and below (to either side of) it. Use the linearize function of the software to draw a straight line between this established stable idle point and where the fueling bars meet 100 kpa. Then do the same from that idle point and the bars on the 0 kpa end of the scale. You’ll usually need less and less fuel as manifold pressure decreases, but don’t get carried away at this point. In fact, if you make all the bars from that point and to the left of it the same height, you’ll be okay for now.
As the engine heats up to normal temperature, you’ll have to adjust the idle mixture again. Once the engine temp is up to normal and you’ve again got the fueling adjusted to a smooth idle (the lower the manifold the better) then you’ll want to decrease your throttle pedal target engine speed by 500 rpm. When the idle is correctly fueled, you’ll see the carrot go lower and lower on the manifold pressure plane of the screen. IOW, the lower manifold pressure (greater vacuum) the better the engine is actually tuned. Once you find this optimum point, enrich the idle point by striking the ‘up arrow’ key a time or too to make it idle slightly rich. Repeat this procedure at all no-load engine speeds from the lowest steady idle all the way up to 3000 RPM. Once you’ve got the no-load mixture close to correct, linearize the un-modified points between where you’ve optimized the mixture, and the 100 kpa point. The fuel bars should show an ascending pattern from left to right. If you started off lean and had to enrich mixture in order to establish correct tune, make sure that as the manifold pressure goes up, the fuel pulsewidth does the same. As engine load goes up, manifold pressure goes down. It then becomes increasingly important that you don’t allow the engine to run lean. You can’t hurt a non-loaded engine by running it lean, but an engine under load will be damaged if it has insufficient fuel. If you DO drive the car and find that it coughs and sputters as you accelerate, you don’t have enough fuel, and your hurting your engine! Over-rich black smoke won’t hurt the engine (besides the plugs, and your catalytic converter if you still have one) but running lean under power will, and quickly. Use your head. If you’re not capable of tuning the car under load, find somebody that is.
This has been a brief (by my definition) description of some of the very most BASIC points of tuning a new install. I could fill volumes with technique and theory, and still not be able to qualify you to tune your car. It’s a skill that is developed with time and practice, and is best aided with a wideband AFM and dynamometer. If you haven’t got one (wideband,) but can afford to buy one, I suggest you do. Learn to understand the relationship between manifold pressure (load) and fuel requirements. This is the place to start off, and use common sense to make small changes to tip-in fuel, timing advance, and temperature and battery voltage correction (major issue for guys with boomin’ systems and bad-*** driving lights.) It takes time, so don’t rush it. You can learn to tune, but it’s not going to happen in an afternoon, and it’s not going to be cheap.
If anyone has any questions, I’m easy enough to find.
Good luck, Martin.
BK
The first thing you need to do before messing with any mapping is verify that you’ve got the ECU properly configured, and be sure that your installation is correct. This ranges from checking all your wires on all sensors, injectors, ignition outputs, triggers, etc. Unplug the harness from everything on the engine as well as the ECU itself, and do a wire by wire, pin by pin continuity check. Be sure that there isn’t some hardware issue that’s causing problem before you start chasing gremlins inside the machine.
Once you’ve established that your installation work is correct, make sure that the ignition system is serviceable. I’ve found that more often than not, inexplicable tuning issues are usually due to a problem with the ignition system, very rarely with the injectors. Be sure that your ignition triggers are properly set up, and that you’ve got each of the coils firing to the correct plugs, etc. Disable the injector outputs in the software, and lock timing at somewhere between 10 and 20 degrees BTDC, and verify the timing with a good non-dialback timing light. The output from the timing light should be strong and consistent, firing each time the rotor approaches it’s compression position. Look at the engine RPMs on the engine data page, and look for the cranking speed to be fairly consistent. You shouldn’t see an RPM deviation of more than 10 to 20 percent while cranking with a fully charged battery.
That brings up an often overlooked problem. It’s not uncommon for guys to crank a battery nearly dead in the process of an install. It’s important that the battery has sufficient charge and not be allowed to run down excessively. Have a GOOD quality battery charger on hand to make sure the battery stays up. HOWEVER, and this is extremely important in order to avoid damaging the ECU, DO NOT USE a jump/boost setting on the battery while the ECU is connected! There is no reason at all to use a battery charger to ‘jump start’ a Haltech equipped car with a dead battery. Charge the battery at the 10 amp setting, then disconnect the charger before cranking or attempting to start the car. The reason for this is that most battery chargers do a poor job of regulating output current and voltage. They cannot quickly react to the change in load that exists in the transition between cranking load and no load. The voltage spikes momentarily, and the ECU is damaged. Since it’s a matter of voltage, not current, the fuse cannot protect the ECU. The ECU must then be returned to Haltech for repair, and is not covered under warranty. Take my word for it.
Anyway, once you’re SURE that all the hardware, wiring, and software configuration are correct, it’s time to attempt to start the engine. There are a lot of people who have installed the E6K on cars and engines like your own, so finding a map file from a successful running vehicle shouldn’t be tough to do. HOWEVER, I caution you that this should only be used as a starting point, and the car should NOT be driven until the engine is properly tuned. Getting a map from a friend should be nothing more than a way to get the car to start and run on the first try. It should only serve to prevent you from fuel-fouling a bunch of plugs while you figure out how much prime and post start fuel to dial in to get the engine to start and idle. Accept the fact that the car MUST be tuned before you can drive it prior to turning the key for the first time. Whether you tune it or you have somebody else do it, driving the car on a bad tune will damage your engine. Be it immediately or over a period of time, the car will drive like **** and you will hurt the engine. So, after you’ve promised yourself not to rush the process, it’s time to go for the first fire.
For sake of instruction, we’ll assume that you’re using a rough map from a running car configured like your own. This will allow us to assume that the timing maps will be close enough to get you started. If you’re starting from scratch, use an educated guess and the QuickMap function of the ignition tables to create a base map automatically. I’m not a rotary expert, so I’m ill equipped to make any initial timing suggestions. However, if you know what the base advance, total advance, and at what point there is full advance from the OEM specs for your engine, you’ve got enough to create a crude ignition map that will allow you to start and begin to tune. I suggest subtracting 2-4 degrees from the OEM base timing figure to start with, then add it back after the fuel maps have been roughed out, then tune again. My experience is with V-8s (save the piston engine hatred for another member, I don’t play that ****, and I’m the one with the answers here) so confer with fellow rotary engine enthusiasts for guidance on base ignition timing issues if you’re not otherwise familiar.
Once you’ve got the software configured and a timing map to start with, it’s time to start the engine. Make sure the battery is fully charged and that you’ve re-enabled the injectors after having checked your timing and triggers earlier. Have your laptop and E6K software on and running with the main fuel map open. Attempt to start the engine as you normally would, keeping in mind that the computer is not going to automatically rev the engine to 3000 RPM or whatever to keep the plugs from fouling. You’ll need to do this on your own, but don’t gas it before the engine tries to catch, otherwise you’re likely to flood it even worse. As you’re cranking with your foot OFF the accelerator, strike the ‘home’ key on your laptop. If the engine doesn’t fire after the first 10 seconds of cranking, figure out why. Striking the ‘home’ key highlighted the bar under the carrot (little triangle pointer thing) that floats above the fueling bars on your screen. It indicates the point where the engine speed and load meet at that particular moment. By pressing the ‘home’ key during cranking, you’ve highlighted the bar affecting fuel as you crank the engine for a start. This is where you’ll want to adjust for more or less fuel, depending on which way you find you need to go. If you smell lots of gasoline in the exhaust, the answer is quite easy. Decrease the fuel at this bar (press the ‘page down’ button a time or two) and one bar to ether side of it (more and less manifold pressure) about 5% and try again. If you don’t smell much fuel, or none at all, be sure that you’ve got fuel pressure and that the injectors are plugged in. Slowly increase cranking fuel at that point by pressing the ‘page up’ key a time or two, but don’t overdo it! When you’ve finally got the fuel close enough for the engine to fire, and you’ve got it started, KEEP IT RUNNING! Things will happen very fast, and you will probably be very excited, but you have to know ahead of time how to react. Be aware of what’s going on under the hood by having a friend or helper watch for leaks and/or fires. Either you or your helper note the color of exhaust, whether it’s smoky or not, and how much. Unless you’ve got a wideband (and I pray you do, if you’re going to tune this beyond no-load power settings) you’ll need to use the color of your exhaust to be an indicator of just HOW too far rich you are. If the map is too lean, the car will not run. Too rich, and you’ll smoke like a diesel and foul the plugs. This is why it’s important to keep the engine running and know how the tuning process works.
With the engine running (or trying to run,) keep hitting the ‘home’ key to highlight the bar beneath the carrot at the point the engine is running. Try to get the engine to run at 1500 or 2000 RPM at first, and start tuning here and work your way down to your desired idle. Doing it this way will help to avoid fuel fouling the plugs should the mixture be overly rich. Most likely, you won’t have a steady idle, but rather the engine will try to hunt. Try to hold your foot steady to produce a stable idle, but don’t fan the pedal trying to chase it. You’ll just make it worse. If the engine is too lean, the engine will decelerate and the manifold pressure will increase. The carrot will swing towards a pressure further toward atmospheric (100 kpa) until it gets enough fuel for the engine to run, then the engine speed increases and manifold pressure goes down (toward 0 kpa.) When the carrot reaches the point where there is not enough fuel, the engine will again decelerate and the carrot will hunt for more fuel. Note where this low point is, and highlight that bar and increase the fueling until the carrot either no longer stops on it (IOW, goes further toward 0 kpa as it cycles back and forth) or the idle stabilizes at that point. If you make major changes to one point and manage to get the engine to NOT hunt from that point, you’ll need to soften the transition between that bar and those above and below (to either side of) it. Use the linearize function of the software to draw a straight line between this established stable idle point and where the fueling bars meet 100 kpa. Then do the same from that idle point and the bars on the 0 kpa end of the scale. You’ll usually need less and less fuel as manifold pressure decreases, but don’t get carried away at this point. In fact, if you make all the bars from that point and to the left of it the same height, you’ll be okay for now.
As the engine heats up to normal temperature, you’ll have to adjust the idle mixture again. Once the engine temp is up to normal and you’ve again got the fueling adjusted to a smooth idle (the lower the manifold the better) then you’ll want to decrease your throttle pedal target engine speed by 500 rpm. When the idle is correctly fueled, you’ll see the carrot go lower and lower on the manifold pressure plane of the screen. IOW, the lower manifold pressure (greater vacuum) the better the engine is actually tuned. Once you find this optimum point, enrich the idle point by striking the ‘up arrow’ key a time or too to make it idle slightly rich. Repeat this procedure at all no-load engine speeds from the lowest steady idle all the way up to 3000 RPM. Once you’ve got the no-load mixture close to correct, linearize the un-modified points between where you’ve optimized the mixture, and the 100 kpa point. The fuel bars should show an ascending pattern from left to right. If you started off lean and had to enrich mixture in order to establish correct tune, make sure that as the manifold pressure goes up, the fuel pulsewidth does the same. As engine load goes up, manifold pressure goes down. It then becomes increasingly important that you don’t allow the engine to run lean. You can’t hurt a non-loaded engine by running it lean, but an engine under load will be damaged if it has insufficient fuel. If you DO drive the car and find that it coughs and sputters as you accelerate, you don’t have enough fuel, and your hurting your engine! Over-rich black smoke won’t hurt the engine (besides the plugs, and your catalytic converter if you still have one) but running lean under power will, and quickly. Use your head. If you’re not capable of tuning the car under load, find somebody that is.
This has been a brief (by my definition) description of some of the very most BASIC points of tuning a new install. I could fill volumes with technique and theory, and still not be able to qualify you to tune your car. It’s a skill that is developed with time and practice, and is best aided with a wideband AFM and dynamometer. If you haven’t got one (wideband,) but can afford to buy one, I suggest you do. Learn to understand the relationship between manifold pressure (load) and fuel requirements. This is the place to start off, and use common sense to make small changes to tip-in fuel, timing advance, and temperature and battery voltage correction (major issue for guys with boomin’ systems and bad-*** driving lights.) It takes time, so don’t rush it. You can learn to tune, but it’s not going to happen in an afternoon, and it’s not going to be cheap.
If anyone has any questions, I’m easy enough to find.
Good luck, Martin.
BK
Thread Starter
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: UK
Thank you for the above detailed and helpful comments. Its all good stuff. I have got the car ideling better now but will have a look at the fueling during cranking. After that Its going to be a case of tuning with the wideband. I am happy the MAP is rich atm as I have compared it to a fuel map for the car that was tested with a wideband at WOT on my engine. I will get there.
Thanks
Martin
Thanks
Martin
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,444
Likes: 0
From: Fort Branch, Indiana
Martin I think thats the longest reply I have ever seen on this forum.. and good job, i didnt see not one typographical error in it. It took you some time to type that, 5 stars there man from me.
Dyno Guy
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
Well, that's what happens when you're stuck at work on night crew. . . . on a holiday of all things. Nothing better to do than spread the good word and help a few folks with their ECU projects.
Let me know if you need other hints.
BK
Let me know if you need other hints.
BK
Thread Starter
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: UK
Car is starting and ideling nicely now. Its a bit slow to fire though. Not sure if this is due to HKS 9 plugs being a little cold or another tweak that I nees to make. Its snowing so difficult to get it out for a run. I am going to borrow a Motec wideband. Any tips on hooking this up to read with the Haltech. Tips on Datalogging would also help.
Thanks
Martin
Thanks
Martin
Dyno Guy
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
Those plugs have little if anything to do with the car's hesitation to start.
More than likely, you'll need to mess around with the prime and post start maps. Rotary engines need an extra bit of fuel when starting a cold engine due to the distance between the injector and the combustion chamber, plus the fact that during cranking, there's not much airflow velocity to atomize the fuel. On the other hand, it's easy to over-inject during starts and flood the engine. So, you'll have to tinker with these variables using good sense and a measure of caution till you get it dialed in just right.
BK
More than likely, you'll need to mess around with the prime and post start maps. Rotary engines need an extra bit of fuel when starting a cold engine due to the distance between the injector and the combustion chamber, plus the fact that during cranking, there's not much airflow velocity to atomize the fuel. On the other hand, it's easy to over-inject during starts and flood the engine. So, you'll have to tinker with these variables using good sense and a measure of caution till you get it dialed in just right.
BK
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Dyno Guy
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
Oh yeah, forgot to comment on datalogging, etc. . . .
I wouldn't bother to datalog during your initial tuning. The reason for this is that changes will need to be made as you go, not after you've parked the car and are reviewing your datalogs over a cup of coffee. It's important to PREVENT and/or abate any lean conditions under load, which is why it's important to have the AFM where you can see it while you're driving (mounted on the dashboard?) and develop muscle memory/dexterity to strike the home key and those all-important arrow and pg-up/pg-dn keys as you drive. It'll take some practice, but you'll find that it's do-able with patience and good sense.
Datalogging has a more important role after the initial rough-tuning has been done, or when you're troubleshooting driveability issues. Again, this will all make sense in due time. Let us know how you like that MoTeC PLM. . . . it's quite a nice piece!
BK
I wouldn't bother to datalog during your initial tuning. The reason for this is that changes will need to be made as you go, not after you've parked the car and are reviewing your datalogs over a cup of coffee. It's important to PREVENT and/or abate any lean conditions under load, which is why it's important to have the AFM where you can see it while you're driving (mounted on the dashboard?) and develop muscle memory/dexterity to strike the home key and those all-important arrow and pg-up/pg-dn keys as you drive. It'll take some practice, but you'll find that it's do-able with patience and good sense.
Datalogging has a more important role after the initial rough-tuning has been done, or when you're troubleshooting driveability issues. Again, this will all make sense in due time. Let us know how you like that MoTeC PLM. . . . it's quite a nice piece!
BK
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