Now that I've got my E11v2 running properly on my FD3S, I've been thinking about which primary and secondary injectors to use. I have 550 primaries and 1600 secondaries (from rx7store.net) now, but someone has offered to sell me 2 850cc secondaries on a modified primary rail for ~$80. Has anyone here tried this (on E11, E6K, E6X)?

I had a Microtech LT8 before the E11v2 and it made a real mess when it staged ie. with 550's and 1600's. The 550's were causing the engine to run lean (A/F 14-15) just before the 1600's came in. When the 1600's did come in though they were overfuelling the engine (A/F 9.5). I tried staging at various points from 15"Hg up to 0"Hg but could not get it right. 12"Hg worked best though.

I think the LT8 didn't map well, as there needed to be a large 'gap' between the fuel map values BEFORE and AFTER the staging point (eg. 3.5msecs and 2.1msecs). The 'interpolation' on the LT8 around the staging point was (I think) inaccurate! The E11v2 should be a lot better!

How quick can the 850's open and close? The same as the 550's? Maybe 1.5msecs? I don't want the engine to idle on injector "dead time". I would have to lower the fuel pressure (currently 40psi) to work around this problem (ie. 550/850*40psi).

Any thoughts on this?

Adrian

 

Um, why?
Are you having problems with the current set-up?
Do you need more fuel capacity?


-Ted

 

i got rid of that problem by feeding each rail with a seperate fuel pump. since they weren't dependant on eachother, no pressure drop when the secondaries kicked in. that made tuning worlds easier around the staging point and only cost a couple hundred bucks.

at the time, i needed to upgrade my fuel pump anyway, so it wasn't any big whoop.

 

Ted, I'm just trying to give the E11v2 an easier primary/secondary injector combo to deal with, as I had big problems with staging on the LT8. Maybe the 550/1600 combo will work well with the E11v2. But I want to try 850/1600 as well.

Guitardude, that's the best solution but I think I would need 2 fuel pumps, 2 swirl pots, 2 fuel pressure regulators and lots of expensive aeroquip fuel hose. Maybe that's a bit OTT for what I'm running (GT3540 at 15psi on a midly ported 13BT engine).

Adrian

 

it's not so much for power as it is for ease of tuning.

my primaries were too small (680's), but that's what i had to work with, so i used a regulator on the primary rail with a warlboro in-tank pump @ 52 psi to try to milk a little more flow and atomisation.

then an in-line pump feeding the secondary rail with the stock regulator.

i used the stock send and return lines as feeds, then got some 3/8 metal brake line at napa for a common return after the regulators. popped that into the top of the tank and made a new pickup for the new feed (stock return) and good to go.

summit has those fram filters with replacable elements for $30ish. it's a relatively easy job-just takes all day.

that might help you, but it might not. ted would know better, but i believe the e11 ramps up te secondaries instead of hitting all at once. if that's the case, the pressure drop shouldn't be as drastic.

BUT
if the microtech is running the injectors sequentially, there shouldn't be a big pressure drop when the secondaries kick on. maybe check the pump and filter just to make sure they're tip-top?

 

The ECU doesn't really care if it's "easier" or "harder".
If the 550/1600 combo works, don't worry about it - that's my point.



-Ted

 

Rather than just halfing the pulsewidth like the E6 series. Doesn't the E11 allow you to gradually transition to the secondaries with an extra map?

 

Yes.
The E11 has one 2D map for a transition bar to make everything run smoother.
And another 2D one for split angle which is something like phase angle.


-Ted

 

why are you staging so early? will the 550's not handle up to 3-4 psi or so.

i currently (E6K) stage my 550/1600 setup aroud 3-4psi. my 550's never see above ~%55duty

the reason i say this is 1600cc inj will not be very precise...a small duty cycle change will yeild large fuel flow differences compare to a 550cc. it may be wise to not depend on them for the more precise fuel requirements like <3psi

good luck

justin

 

I have the same staging point, 3-4psi 550 -> 1600's...I'm still having some hesitation, any helpful hints to smooth it over?!

Base pressure 38psi.

I didn't think to bump it up a little bit...ran at about 43psi and the car would pop and such on decel, shifts, high vacuum...so that's why I stand ~38psi.

 

Actually, no it doesn't.
550's typically max out around 5500 or 6000 RPM for primaries.
Most people don't drive at low boost at those RPM's, but I had a customer that liked to feather the throttle at high RPM's and saw the pulsewidths lock at 100%!


-Ted

 

As I understand it, the Staged Injection Map (for Haltechs) is there to smooth the transition from firing on just primaries to firing on both primaries AND secondaries. It also has to cope with the transition in the other direction too. There is 1 load bar (which it uses for 'interpolation') at each rpm point to handle this transition. The larger the gap between primaries (eg. 550's) and secondaries (eg. 1600's), the larger the Staging transition. A larger transition makes the engine feel more jerky (ie. the response is very on/off). The interpolation Haltech uses (in between Load points and RPM points) is probably a lot better than Microtech's (from what I've heard) , so in theory the engine should feel smoother. This is one of the reasons I defected to Haltech!

Microtech does 'staging' a different way. It uses a Percentage as a Staging factor which can be 0-100%. Below the Stage_RPM and Stage_Load (which you set) the primaries are firing at Stage_Pcnt x the normal pulsewidth. When the engine exceeds BOTH Stage_RPM and Stage_Load, the primary injectors stop using the Stage_Pcnt factor and fire at normal pulsewidth. At the same time the secondary injectors start firing (ie. at the same pulsewidth as the primaries). When you have 550's as primaries and 1600's as secondaries, this transition is very sharp. Even with 850's/1600's its still going to be sharp! Microtech recommend Staging BEFORE you hit boost (ie. still in the vacuum area). I've tried Staging (on my LT8) between 15"Hg and 0"Hg, and 12"Hg worker out best. I use a Tech Edge wideband to display AFR's and tune by. I get worried when the AFR's get to 14+ when I'm still running on primaries. OK so I then add more fuel at those points which reduces the AFR's here. But as I hit Stage_Load (ie. when above Stage_RPM) there is a much BIGGER DROP (in the Fuel Map values around here) as the secondaries start to fire. This is the main problem I had tuning on the LT8! I'm hoping that, in practice, the E11v2 handles staging a lot better, but I still want to try mapping 850's/1600's as well as 550's/1600's.

BTW what sort Boost pressure are you guys running? I guess you need to run more Fuel Pressure as you increase Max boost pressure. But if you run too much FP then your Idle suffers, unless your primaries can open and close very quickly (or you supply the primaries with another fuel pump / regulator).

Adrian

 

i dunno if the e11 is any better, but the x stages like ***.

 

My staging of 850/1600's was transparent...rich as hell, I think.

but I didn't like my idle, light cruising and gas comsumption...and I couldn't find a "safe" map for 10psi. Or a map to compare too.

550/1600 has a little hes.

trying to smooth it out.

 

i'm tellin' ya....dual feeds clears it all up.

 

Newb....

Dual feed....

Two pumps one for each fuel rail?

James

 

Quote "I have the same staging point, 3-4psi 550 -> 1600's...I'm still having some hesitation, any helpful hints to smooth it over?!

Base pressure 38psi.

I didn't think to bump it up a little bit...ran at about 43psi and the car would pop and such on decel, shifts, high vacuum...so that's why I stand ~38psi."

mine staging hesitates when cold but not really noticeable when warm... i'll check my maps and let you know what the heights are

justin

 

yea, seperate pump for each rail. you could probably use a common regulator, but i had s5 rails and no welder handy, so i kept the stock fpr on the secondary.

worked out good though--the 680 primaries were really too small for the bridge, so i ran the pressure higher in that rail to compensate.

 

Coolant map or air temp map needs to be fine tuned.


-Ted