Has anyone ever experimented with primary hold mode injector staging???

Any advice with switching to this mode??

I understand that common mode can stage any injectors perfectly, but I don't have access to a dyno for the extensive tuning, certainly not an eddy current dyno. I can get the injectors to stage ok, even pretty good, but there is always either a rich or lean spot coming up from or bouncing off the staging bar. Yes I know that the car can be driven so as to avoid bouncing in and out of boost.

I do have the staging bar set at 2PSI and at least on my car I don't run out of injector in the upper rpms, but I don't rev my current engine past 7000, thats probably why.

Anyways I have been told that primary hold mode can infact stage the injectors perfectly in all situations, like bouncing off the bar, in and out at different rates in different gears.

One other thing, I am running sequential, so I have like 15 (maybe slight exaggeration) psi of boost at 2500 rpm, and can bounce in and out of 2-3 psi of boost below 2K rpm. The lower rpm, as in under 3 K is where most of my issues are.

Second question, does anyone have a mathematical formulation or general instructions by which I can switch to primary hold mode, and adjust the fuel map above the staging bar, so that I am starting at the same point so to speak. That is when changing to primary hold mode, its going to change every single bar above the staging bar. What formula based on injector size can I use to adjust my maps to keep things the same.

And finally whats a good starting point for the staged dis-enrichment with 550/1300.

I was told the more the primary is reduced, the easy staging will be. Is this true???

 

What do you consider rich or lean below 3000rpm at 2psi of boost?
I can't seem to understand this problem because even at 2psi at that low rpm you don't even need the stage injectors to function and just adjust to suit. You claim you have enough primary injector to support 2psi at 7000rpm so why do you need the secondatries at 2500rpm?

 

At times like this is when I *HATE* wide-bands.

Really, stop looking at the damn wide-band read out.

If you try to do that, the engine will start to hesitate.
The engine will usually blow right through the staging bar fast enough anyways.
Unless you're crazy enough to drive the car at the staging bar for any significant amount of time?
This just means your staging bar is too close to "0".
Move the staging bar as far to the right as possible.


-Ted

 

That will cause another set of problems.
A lot of people are under the impression that they need to be at the same afr's under boost at low rpm as it is at higher rpms. Most factory ecus dont' even come out of closed loop below 4krpm even up to 15 psi on some applications.
Widebands are just another tuning tool if the person doing the tuning understands the purpose of the tool. Just like egt gauges and reading spark plugs.

 

I'm talking about its hard to straddle the line of stumbling rich and stumbling lean when slowly crossing the staging bar at low RPM. It probably dips below 10 on the wide band or up to 14, its seems like I can't hit the in between, for good staging at this low an rpm.

The real issue is if I breath on the gas pedal I instantly shoot into boost. Like trying to just start rolling up a hill, at 2500 RPM and up its not possible to stay under the staging bar.

If you can tell me how to make the stage injectors not function until say 3500 rpm then I would be very happy. I considered a fast switching electronic solenoid on an rpm switch, switching the + power to the secondaries, but what if it fails.

 

Well if I install 850 secondaries then I could probably come up to 4 PSI, right now if I ran to 7000 rpm on the last bar below staging I would be at 90% duty cycle. I don't drive at the staging bar, not even sure how its possible to hold the just below the staging bar to redline.

 

Ok, I think I came up with a way to approximate the fuel map for a switch to primary hold mathematically.

here goes:

(fuel before stage in MS) - (staged dis-enrichment milliseconds) x (total CC of primary injectors) = fuel figure 1 (for RPM point XXXX)

((Fuel MS post bar {any point, matching RPM point above}) x (total CC of all injectors)) - (fuel figure 1) = fuel figure 2

Fuel figure 2/(total cc of just secondary injectors) = new time in MS for that point.

I'll let you guys know if it works.

 

This is why we should keep bitching to Haltech about going with RPM *AND* load staging! :P
I dunno why Haltech doesn't get their heads out of their asses and just take care of this already...
I guess it's a pipe dream like straight USB interfaces?

I believe you have an E8?
Did you mess with that intermediate staging map yet?

The E8 should be able to control 1600's in the primaries...


-Ted

 

I can agree with you 100% on this one, I have sent them a couple emails requesting it, I put it in the feature request on their forum etc.

It would be so easy to add a drop down with the available RPM points to the staging setup page. Just a simple drop down for an RPM cut on for staging.

I have been messing with the extra load bar plenty, IMO it actually makes it harder to tune the staging. I found it easy to setup staging with 550/1600 on a E6k, much harder or at least more time consuming than the same exact hardware and setup with an E8.

USB would be a step up, but I'm waiting on integrated bluetooth

 

Have you ever been to the track. Ever tried to coast around a long corner at speed. You will be surprised at how often you would be at transition. Its not always power through. Its not fun having it bog on you.

I've been struggling for a year with my staging. Never was an issue with the E6k but for some unknown reasons its an issue with the e8.

Hopefully it will be ironed out this spring during the tuning session.

FWIW my staging is set at 0psi. 550cc and 1600cc. no different then my e6k setup.

Ian

 

You guys do know that at any rpm you can remove the fueling from the secondaries. You don't need a seperate program to do that when all you have to do is zero the staging bars/load points in the area you don't want them to function.
I still can't understand what's causing that problem you've been having. If it was one of the older ecu's I could understand to a point but with the new ecu's that's what the staging bar map is for.

 

SLO,

I called haltech to try and understand my difficulty in the staging map issues I have. Basically it boils down to my tuning. That extra load bar really messes me up. The E6K worked fine. My friend spend a few hours playing with it on the street during a cruise but I still had issues. Once at the track it was even worse.


Hope you get it sorted out.

 

I kinda knew when Haltech started making the tuning options more available to the user that these sort of problems would appear.
The staging bar map will make tuning a little more difficult. If you don't get your afr's spot on with the bars under and above staging then the extra staging bar map would never be correct.
What afr's at what load and rpm are you shooting for?
You got any datalogs of when the problem occurs?

 

Please clarify,

So your saying that If I zero the staged injection map at say (example pulled out of my ***) 0-3000 RPM, then the haltech won't stage at 0-3000 rpm, and the figures on the fuel map after the staging bar (say 4PSI at 2500 rpm) will be for the primaries only.

Is that what your saying????

If so where does it say that in any manual, because I have read everything I can get my hands on and never hear that one.

If it is the case thank you very much and we really should sticky this post.

 

Hmmm I just realise I was confusing your problem with something else!
Disregard what I said before about zeroing the map because it will obviouslyl cause another problem!
That is what happens when you're trying to reply to a PM and post at the same time!
You should try the primary hold mode. I've never tried it but it might be easier and solve the problem you're experiencing.
Having an eddy current dyno available for use really speeds up the tuning process and will enabe you to zero out all those problems. The day have come where 100% support and factory training is needed to be able to understand and use the software. It makes no sence having all the features in the world if no one understands it and cannot benefit from it's use.

 

That is what everyone have to do. The more request for the same the better there's a chance of a change happening.

http://forums.haltech.com/viewforum.php?f=17
http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1790

 

you did come up with a good way to do it, just implement it using the the extra load bar.

And yes it would sure be nice to have this feature.

Even if you have all the tools and experience to get staging just perfect (under all situations) think of the time and fuel this would save.

You would basically no longer have to **** with staging until after a pre determined rpm. On 850 primaries, that could be what about 4000 to 4500 on most cars.

 

Not all applications stage at that low a load level. I have some staging at 12-15psi due to injector size and amount.

 

You're right.
Right now, there is no track locally, so all the cars I tune now are all street tuned.
I only had one customer who liked to "feather" the throttle at 6kRPM, and that easily locked up the 550 primaries - OOPS.
This is why I carry extra 720's now...
In fact, I'm sitting on 12 of them now.

crispeed hit it right on the head.
I had a problem tuning an E11V1 (thanx gawd those things are GONE), and I ended up messing with the staging map - BAD IDEA.
It does cause more headaches than solves them!


1) The E6K made a lot of people sloppy with the fuel tuning.
Due to the "slow" CPU clock speed and the "great" logrithm, staging transition wasn't that big of a deal.
Step up to the faster E11 / E8 with extra features, and all of a sudden you get problems that were never there with the E6K!
2) Having the staging bar set at "0" is a bad idea.
With turbos motors, you end up banging the "0" load too often.
This is why I recommend pushing the bar as far right (in + boost) as possible.
This prevents the ECU from trying to hit the fuel injector staging unnecessarily.
This is how you get the car more streetable.
I usually run the staging bar at least two bars into + boost away from "0".
I better shut up already, cause I'm giving away too many "secrets"...


-Ted

 

Ok I switched to primary hold mode, it does work far far better than common mode !!!!!!!

It is easier to tune and seems to be more predictable everywhere

There are a couple of things to keep in mind with this...

It limits the total output of the primary injectors.

the duty cycle of the primary and secondairy injectors will be different after staging

You could also exceed the 100% (or any arbitrary duty cycle that you want to stay below eg 70, 80 etc) on the primary injectors if the staged disenrichment is set too low. (based upon the last load bar before staging).

The staging map or extra load bar, whatever you want call it becomes the first bar on the other side of the last un-staged bar and does not effect the primaries at all. It is what the primaries begin firing (+ or - correction maps that me be active of course). It becomes just another bar, that happens to be on a different map. And of course there is no interpolation between it and the last normal bar before it. Its a hard line directly after the last bar before staging.

It would seem wise to choose a staged dis-enrichment amount that limits the primary injector duty cycle as per the redline.

staged dis enrichment is entered in microseconds instead of milliseconds. 1000 microseconds = 1 millisecond

to start with I choose staged dis-enrichment of 3000, putting the primaries at 5 MS and starting the 1300 cc (modified FD) secondaries @ 2.3 MS. This worked really really good, I did a tiny bit of fine tuning (like 5 minutes worth street tuning) and have the staging pretty dam good.

 

The primary hold mode operates like some other popular ecu's when dealing with staging. They don't use the 'extra staging bar' method so at lower rpms you do have to 'zero' the pulse width on the staging map.
I was actually explaining that to someone else at the same time that I was posting here and that's how I got confused.
When you're dealing with a lot of different ecu's daily that happens sometimes!
I hope you get your problems sorted out.
Be carefull because if you don't have enough injector on the primary side to support high rpms, lean out will occur. This is one area where 550cc's don't have any place. Two 550cc injectors cannot suppor a NA motor at high rpms. The smallest injectors I always use for the primary are always 720-750cc and even those on some extreme applications don't cut it.

 

Ah I see, I am actually staging just one bar to the right, and I calculated my max duty cycle to ber @ 90% on the primaries IF I where to run all the way to 7000 rpm just before staging.

I have 2.5 sets of 850's I just need to get of my *** and install them.

 

If you are at all interested I can send you a data log and map. I know I just need more tuning. Such a small difference changes alot in the staging area.

Ian

 

Care to elaborate on staging multiple injectors?

 

A little bit more work, probably 1/2 hour total on the street and I have gotten the staging to where the transition is unnoticeable.

Also my simple math posted higher up in this thread worked pretty good to get me in the ballpark fuel wise. I am running pretty conservative timing with meth injection, about 15 degrees static advance at 15PSI with the air temp correction maps putting in or taking out a little timing and fuel as the meth injection cools the intake charge down pretty good even with no intercooler.

The engine seems real happy to run a little leaner, like 12.5 afr at 15 psi at low rpm, and about 11.75-12.00 up twords the torqe peak.