Damn, wish I saw this in time for the group buy

 

We've got the orders packed up and ready to go tomorrow, we're just going through them all to double check that they each have everything in them.

 

Would be interested in the street kit when it is available. Need to keep the airpump in place where I live.

 

The street kit is next on our list of product releases. We'll start a thread here with more information soon.

 

We've been waiting for these little brass tidbits quite some time which has held up shipping the kits... but they're finally here. These allow the new thermistor to be inserted in place of the old FD thermosensor (should you choose) for a cleaner install… though we do include the “lazy” way as well which is an inline adapter fitting in case you just want to get-er-done. Like always, we're late on shipping... I guess that's a SBG tradition now. On the flip side we're confident that you'll be quite pleased with the full setup







For fun (and to address the skeptics that are afraid this system is not up to the task of cooling the FD) here's is a picture to illustrate how much coolant this pump can flow at max speed. (Max speeds only happens when the pump speed has already ramped up approaching the temp set point, the fans have been triggered, and temps are still climbing). As a last resort the pump goes full BeastMode, with enough coolant flowing through the motor to SUCK THE STRAIGHT SECTION of the upper radiator hose FLAT! :insert innuendo here: I'd love to see a stock pump do this (and without cavitation, as verified in testing)... another check in the ‘totally-awesome’ category for this cooling setup . (don’t be alarmed, your hose won't actually get sucked flat, as this would result in a full overheating temp spike… included in our kit is an important provision to prevent a collapsed hose )



-Heath

p.s. As a bit of a funny anecdote (and to explain why there’s actually a false sense of security with the stock mechanical setup being “fail-safe” ): No less than one week ago, we picked up a Turbo Mazdaspeed Miata (one of the new development platforms for us) which was flawless inside and out - thank you lady owner – but the hood was never opened. It was on original belts and had a very nice little front crank leak, so not only were the belts loose, they were oily and squealing as well. Everything under the hood just needed maintenance, as nothing was ever done aside from oil changes that I can tell… but no matter, it was only 20 minutes back to the shop so we’d just sort it out there. No less than 3 miles away I smell a faint burning rubber and snap, charge light is on and we immediately pull over. No less than 3 seconds after the belt snaps the OEM temp gauge needle is pegged FULL hot. AAA the car back, and replace the belt, everything seems ok, but had we left the motor running longer all bets would have been off… I was amazed how fast the needle hit full hot. Let that be a lesson to everyone out there… you’ve got literally SECONDS to catch a snapped mechanical belt, let alone a slipping waterpump belt in your FD. The Miata motor is somewhat bullet proof, I wouldn’t dare try this in an FD. Suffice to say, the stock mechanical waterpump is NOT fail safe, by any means whatsoever. I had this happen a number of years ago in an FD and lost a coolant seal as a result. Anyway it was ironic that this just happened days before shipping our EWP kits

 

Consider me one of those skeptics. There is a reason factory water pumps are bolted directly to the block and not to a rubber hose. Ferrari 550GTCs use 2 Davies Craig pumps as one single one is not up to the task of cooling a high power car for extended periods. Porsche 996 turbo water pumps will do 225 gph, and that car is similar output to most single turbo FDs. How can you possibly make claims of increased cooling capacity with any sort of confidence without doing any flow testing on the original pump?

Mechanical pumps are not failsafe, neither are electric ones. I see multiple BMWs every year that require longblock replacement from failed EWPs. I also fail to see how not changing 10 year old, oily, loose, belts is somehow a flaw in mechanical pumps? If an EWP fails, do you think the engine will somehow not overheat rapidly?

 

An old belt is not a mechanical pump failure, but since the belt drives the pump, if you belt fails, your pump does not spin. That's a perfectly valid argument for a potential failure point in a mechanical system. There are many others.

So Ferrari uses Davies Craig pumps on their system, that's reassuring to hear. Which size pump(s) are they using? Here's the deal, the 150 can suck the hoses FLAT at full blast (without our stainless steel spring reinforcement). The stock pump can't do that. So I'm not sure how much more coolant you'd want to flow, but we've maxed out the stock hoses with this pump (at max flow), and had to provide reinforcement because of the high flow rate.

225 GPH for the Porsche? At max capacity the Davis Craig pump is rated at 150lpm, which is roughly 40GPM, which is 2400GPH. So maybe we're talking apples and oranges with flow rates, but we're an order of magnitude above based on their max calculated flow rates. If you want to test the stock pump, by all means, but I can assure you flow rate is "better" than the stock pump

 

I definitely messed up the conversion, d'oh. The raw number for the Porsche pump is 14000 liters per hour, versus the 9000 lph of the Davies Craig pump. As for testing the pump myself... I'm not the one selling the kit. Maybe I'm insane, but to me selling a kit with no analysis of the original setup, no empirical testing or case studies beyond "it sucks a hose flat," no track proven cars to vouch... How can you make the claims you are?

I hope I'm missing something, because I really would love to see some solid evidence that a single ewp150 is sufficient to cool a 400+ whp rotary on a road course. Ewp can bring real benefits and you have obviously put a lot of work into the kit, so I hope to have my criticisms quashed.

 

I guess what I'm wondering is, how can you flow more fluid than the hose itself will allow? We've already added a hose reinforcement because this pump has flow capacities far exceeding the stock hose. I'd love to see a stock pump (or even the re-medy pump) do that. Keep in mind we've used both.

Empirically, it works. We tested it, it works flawlessly. Because we haven't done a scientific analysis of the OEM pump in all conditions, does that mean our setup is not well tested or engineered?

The fact of the matter is an EWP is decoupled from the motor, so regardless of max pump flow of the stock pump you'd have to be at redline to hit that flow rate, and at redline you're generating lots of heat. Comparing max flow rate is just a pissing contest, and does not get at the effectiveness of the system as a whole. We can essentially "redline" the cooling system while the motor is at idle if need be, and this is where comparing flow rates is a complete waste of my time and yours... the data gathered is not use-able, it's apples and kiwis

 

I doubt you would get the stock pump to collapse a hose as you would have to be revving the engine high to get it into "beast mode," which would require an engine to be at temperature and hence the coolant system would have 15+psi to keep the hoses from collapsing (to answer your first question). With the ewp you can run it at full beans without any system pressure. Kiwis to Persimmons...

Any info on the cars and conditions you have tested would be greatly appreciated!

6000-redline is typically where my car operates on track, where it generates the most heat, and where I require the greatest volume of coolant mass flow. There is no debating that the ewp offers far greater flexibility in all conditions. Your comment about the effectiveness of the system a whole is rather misleading as you aren't changing the system as a whole - you're changing the pump.

You can have a well tested setup without analyzing and knowing your benchmark, but you cannot have a well engineered one.

 

200 degrees F was our set point, which is where the pump would run at max volume. So you're saying our system pressure isn't great enough at 200 degrees? That's the temp at which the hose will collapse with the pump at max speed without a reinforcement coil. So you suggest running the motor in much a hotter state to build more pressure to not collapse the hose which proves your mechanical pump works equally as effectively?

So by your own logic, if you could run the mechanical pump at 9000rpm equivalent at 6000RPM motor speed you'd be in better shape than you are now? Assuming your OEM pump doesn't cavitate at that speed (which I'd be surprised if it didn't with the OEM bent sheet metal impeller design) . Also a side note, how much power is your pump leeching from the motor at 9000RPM? We're drawing all of 8A or less off the battery. I also disagree with you, the systems are not the same, we're not just simply changing the pump, we're changing the characteristics of the pump, removing the thermostat (a significant restriction) as the variable pump speed now handles thermostatic control (which you can't do in a mechanical system), and the pump blade design itself is different. Without getting into full speed coolant flow and fan control after shutdown, it's more than just a new pump.

Look, no matter what I say you'll come back with a rebuttal. What you've proven that the EWP is not right for you. I'm all for answering skepticism and debating, but if you want to go back and fourth on this more we can do it via PM. If you want to spend the time bench-marking the stock pump, I'm in full support of that, but I don't have that time to waste. We can't analyze every aspect of every system we create, we're a small team and have a business to run. If you don't like it or don't believe it works for whatever reason, don't buy it. The other option is that this new application makes you nervous because it's unknown, and the repetitive negativity is just cognitive dissonance. Give it some time...

 

Looking forward to the street kit, would love to test it during a Phoenix summer

 

Mine arrived today. Installing soon! Gonna grab the passenger door handle while you've still got 'em too. :3

 

Awesome, we'd love to see some install pics. If you have any questions along the way please don't hesitate to ask, we're here to help... PM or email info@sakebombgarage.com

For the door handles, we're down to ONE 93 and TWO 94's left. That's the last run of these we'll be doing for the time being.

 

Yikes! Sounds like I need to jump on that '93 finish now!

As for pictures, I'll see what I can do.

 

If you weren't the guy who bought the handle, I believe the one we sent out Tuesday was the last of the 93 handles

Shoot me a PM I can save a 94 for you, there's now only one of those left as well


And now back to EWP questions ...

 

Do you have issues keeping a stable temperature when the pump pulses? Does it run too cool?

 

Since the pulses are relatively close together and the duration is based on realtime cooling needs, temperatures stay very stable. It does take longer to warm up since there's no thermostat, we clocked it at about 8 minutes just sitting and idling. If you're driving it, it'll naturally warm up way quicker.

It does run a bit cooler than normal, especially since the electric pump is way more powerful, but it's definitely within normal and safe operating temperatures.

 

We just completed another run of EWP kits and got quite a few messages about putting a group buy for them. If you guys would like to see another GB on these kits, please sign up. We'll put one together if the interest is there

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We just completed another run of EWP kits and got quite a few messages about putting a group buy for them. If you guys would like to see another GB on these kits, please sign up. We'll put one together if the interest is there

1. Chill93fd
2.
3.
4.
5.

 

We just completed another run of EWP kits and got quite a few messages about putting a group buy for them. If you guys would like to see another GB on these kits, please sign up. We'll put one together if the interest is there

1. Chill93fd
2. Wazway
3.
4.
5.

 

Haven't seen any testimonials or install pictures or feed back on this

 

Happy for anyone to post them up! We don't send out free kits for publicity sake, so we don't get the "press" /videos/paid reviews, but from the emails we've gotten back everyone has been thrilled with the completeness of the kit. Any reviews out there would be out of the kindness of peoples hearts... but we'd love to see some in-depth reviews from any customers! Just like our cooler kits/ headlight kits/ etc. the reviews accumulate over time and the SBG EWP kit is relatively new so it takes time for reviews to pop up. I'd also feel sleazy sending out discounted/free kits to get "reviewed" by someone associated with us, because it seems like negative details always miraculously get 'left out' for some odd reason when people are getting free parts

We actually produce our own mil-spec harnesses in house specifically for the FD for this pump (you don't hack up the cheap included harness), our own machined brass thermosensor adapter, own own stainless anti collapse spring, our own optimized thermostat flow plate, our flow optimized cap, and quite a few other bits and pieces. This is the most complete kit and well engineered kit out there. I'd love to get some people posting reviews here, since we've sold over 50 kits to date, and are on our third production run now, due in 2 weeks

 

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