vectorminds

Does this look really interesting to anyone else....



companys website is http://www.rotarypowermarine.com/240si.htm for that engine

and does anyone know if this setup (intake manifold and what not, can be attached to our engines (it seems like this company is just using standard 13b blocks from mazda, so it should be too much effort... and damn thats a compact way to fit the supercharger on there

I think im going to give them a call as soon as they are open on monday to find out whats up.... but if anyone has any details that would be awesome

vectorminds

also, does anyone know if whipple superchargers are interchangable with eaton superchargers?

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

I believe Whipple or Kenne Belle makes one that is basically "interchangable" with a Eaton MP112, but that is, I THINK, an M60 (or MP60, or MP60S depending on porting), so no, I don't believe they are. You could always fab an adapter, and integrate a air to water aftercooler, and use a whipple, but you would be talking some SERIOUS boost.. most of those are designed for 15-20 lbs range (I push 14 lbs on my GTP, with just an M90).

vectorminds

my question about going with the whipple was i was under the impression that it would have a lower output temperature for the same boost as a roots based charger (such as the eaton), so then you could theoreticaly run more boost before needing an aftercooler

skydivr73

well hell--it looks just like the Eaton M90 with a shorter snout....but it is turned on its side compared to the eaton setups. I do not understand why no on ehas just gotten an M90 and done the fab work. It can spool to high rpms safely, and is known to be pretty reliable. I am going to do this setup with a M90 that came from a T-Bird SC. Stock, the later SC's could run up to 12 pounds of boost safely. It will take a lot of fabbing but I cannot wait to see the results...this seems like such a better idea than dropping $3-4K for the setup, installing it and tuning it. Just my opinion.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

That is SC set-up is for a boat and they did NOT incorporate a air to water intercooler. Crazy!

The Wipple is indeed a Lysholm SC that is far more efficient than Rootes style.

I believe Eaton has switched over from an improved twisted rotor Roots to a Lysholm design recently.

Still, one should run an IC. A turbo is the most efficient compressor and as you know turbos and IC still go hand in hand...

BlackIceGuitar

A turbo goes hand and hand with an IC because the compress is near the hot exhaust gases.

You could get away with no IC and lower boost with a supercharger type set up if you so chose.

vectorminds

lysholm superchargers i belive (at least according to whipple's site) are as if not more efficient than a turbo... and there are plenty of non intercooled turbo cars... they just cant run as much boost

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

A turbo goes hand and hand with an IC because the compress is near the hot exhaust gases.

Even though turbo may have higher underhood temps the outlet air temp will be much lower due to the higher adiabatic efficiency. If you take into account the small surface area of the "hot" compressor housing and how fast the intake charge is moving through it there is not that much heat transfer to the intake charge. The supercharger has much higher surface area in contact w/ air charge so the slightly lower temps will be offset by this.



lysholm superchargers i belive (at least according to whipple's site) are as if not more efficient than a turbo... and there are plenty of non intercooled turbo cars... they just cant run as much boost

From everything I have seen Lysholms are almost as efficient as older turbos (mid 60s to 70% adiabatic eff.), but not as good as newer turbos (in the 80%-s). I have a Lysholm off the Mazda Millenia S in the garage and so have done a little research.


Turbo cars have been not been un-intercooled since the 70s. Intercooling technology was a significant advance in forced induction technology- take advantage of it whenever possible!

When I saw that un-intercooled boat set-up I was appalled since air to water ICs superior to air to air except for the added complexity of the water heat exchanger and pump, the added weigh and the fact that the limited amount of water in the system can be a limiting factor.

But, in a boat on the water all of the negative aspects of air to water IC disappear as the system will be as simple as an air to air (IC core immersed in water forced through core by motion of boat) and there is unlimited cool water available- plus it still has the advantage of water's much higher heat transfer rate as compared to air's.

There is NO BETTER application for air to water IC and no reason to not incorporate it on a boat except for cheaping out.

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

I'm looking at the housing more and more, it still looks a little short for an M90, but it might just be the position. IF that is an M90, the Gen IVs (on the new Pontiac Grand Prix GTPs) are MASSIVELY higher efficiency then the older ones. They use abradable coating to set the rotors (just like a lot of newer turbos). Beyond that, yes, a screw or lysholm style would have higher efficiency, but they, like a turbo, do make better efficiency depending on boost level. (better put, to see the peak efficiency, you're going to need to run in a certain boost range) Oh, and I've seen MUCH higher efficiencies on some lysholm twin screws, I believe my uncle's drag bike is somewhere in the mid 80s, though it's on nearly pure nitro. Check it out:

www.larrymcbride.com

Now thats some scary sh*t.

skydivr73

yeah thats what I was thinking--the M90 has the long snout. There is also a version of the M90 that Mercedes uses in the Kompressor that doesnt have the snout on it.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

May I ask what you are planning on doing with it?

RotaryRevn

Hmm, I have one of these Mercendes super chargers sitting on a shelf in my garage. Wonder how hard it would be to hook up. I think it puts out about 6 or 7 psi

I also have a supercharger off of the amg kit for the c class but I think that sucker puts out like 15 lbs.

RotaryRevn

That intake manifold looks to be a stock series 4 so yes, it should fit right on. Now as far as what connects the supercharger to the intake manifold, I would like to see another shot. And what kind of throttle body are they using?

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

actually, it's the housing size that denotes the '60' '90' or '112' size.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

May I ask what you are planning on doing with it?

I plan to use the Lysholm off the Otto cycle 2.3L? Millenia S on a streetable peripheral port set-up.

I think the off idle boost will be perfect to fight the exhaust reversion from overlap and the compression reversion from high duration. If I use sequential injection (Haltech E11) I can inject the fuel just as the exhaust port closes so I am not pushing all the air/fuel charge out the exhaust port.

Intercooled, of course! The stock Millenia S application use TWO intercoolers.

deadRX7Conv

Wow, thats awesome. Someone finally stuck an eaton on the 13b. I'd rather have an Eaton than a Camden. Being a big OEM supplier, these things have already proven themselves.

Now, gotta find out if that engine is a 4 or 6 port? early or late(VDI)? intake type.........and if it will fit under the hood

Each Eaton is specific for its application. So, in order for a whipple to interchange, it'll need to have the inlet/outlet cast(or kitted) for that unit. But, what one needs to know is which Eaton application that the marine engine builder is using? its own kit? and if Kennebell has a Whipple replacement for that ap?

Anyone notice that the redline is 6500rpm? boring!

How about MOP/OMP setup? premix? electronic? .......

KevinK2

mazdatrix.com offered a sc for a while ... some details:
http://www.mazdatrix.com/superchg/main.htm

the new eatons were very efficient up to about 10 psi. The whipple type has the advantage at higher boost. Turbo usually more efficent than each, plus uses some waste thermal energy to drive turbine, vs pure parisitic belted losses for sc's.

vectorminds

that looks exactly like the one atkins offers...... although at a much much better price.... too bad they only had 19 of them

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

That looks nothing like the Atkins unit. The Atkins is a roots style blower that uses its own intake manifold and is designed to be fed by a Holley carb in a downdraft fashion. The Atkins unit is a 2 lobe per blower rotor design. Each rotor is also straight. This unit is based off of the M90 roots style blower from Eaton. The technology is far superior to the Atkins unit. The Eaton is designed for fuel injection purposes. The inlet is on the back instead of the top. Each rotor in the supercharger has 3 lobes and is twisted. It is more thermally efficient than the Atkins design. The Atkins unit is very old outdated Roots supercharger technology. The Eaton unit, while still inferior to most any other form of forced induction is still a technological leap from the Atkins unit. Their only similarity is that they are both Roots superchargers.

vectorminds

rotary god... i ment the supercharger that KevinK2 pointed out that mazdatrix sold... not the eaton setup being produced by rotarypowermarine...

thats why i was excited about it... because its not using million year old technology like the atkins setup.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Oops my bad! Sorry dude!

The Mazdatrix units that were on sale several years ago were the Camden superchargers from when they were made in Austin, TX. Then Atkins bought Camden and relocated them to Puyallup, WA. where they retooled the original production lines. They are the exact same precambrian era units.

RotaryRevn

Anyone ever think about twincharging their rotary? You know like the kit hks used to make for the old mr2 supercharged model that uses both a turbo and a supercharger? Great low end, and high end.

vectorminds

how does that work... does it use an electronicly disengageing supercharger that switches off as soon as the turbo is fully spooled and making full boost?

if so that would be an awesome setup.. and besides the added weight and complication would truely be the best of both worlds

RotaryRevn

not quite sure how it works, I used to be a toyota guy way back when, I'm sure you could find out all of the details by doing a search of "Twincharge" or "Twincharge 4agze" with yahoo. I have talked with a guy that had this done to his car and it really was a sweet no lag setup. This was years ago....about 10