mmaragos

You can't just drop the belt (said before, but worth saying again).

Probably better with most vehicles to put in a manual rack. On cars as light as the RX-7s, there really is little need for power steering...even for the weak.

One plus of removing it is less weight. Another, IMO, is better feel.

Jerk_Racer

I just read my way through this thread. One thing that I noticed is the difference between 2nd and 3rd gen owners. ::puts on and zips up flame-proof suit:: 3rd gen drivers are pussbags that don't like to put much of themselves and effort into driving. Wahhhh, it's too hard to turn my wheels. Wahhh wahhh wahhh Now we 2nd gen owners are a heartier breed of character. We enjoy the visceral pleasure of driving. 2nd gen owners unite! We're tired of living in the shadows of 3rd gen owners and it's time we took back the spotlight. C'mon, who's coming with me?

::I think I'll keep the suit on for a while::

Tom93R1

iTrader: (2)

Hmm, maybe some of us park our cars every once ina while. No PS is ok if you don't drive that much. I had a Turbo II and now have a REPU, both with no PS and it's not that bad, but I much prefer my FD for most driving situations because it has power steering. Maybe if I did most of my driving on the open roads but my car is a bit more than just a weekend car. And jerk, so you didn't jump into your flame suit for nothing this is for you

85RX7GS

iTrader: (1)

I love not having power steering. The feel is superb! It's not hard to steer at all, unless you aren't moving.

NOTA V6

tmak26b

Ahh my freaking p/s pulley broke. I've been driving around with no p/s on my p/s rack. Let me tell you it is a bitch. To me I would rather have the extra 30 lbs than be driving like a retard who cant make quick moves with it. Turning 1/2 without the p/s is fine, but you want quicker response? Huh you better have strong arms

gsracer

my 87 t2 didn't even come with ps when I purchased it. After getting used to it for about an hour it felt totally natural to me. Now when I have to move the 'rents cars around in the driveay the steering wheel just flys left and right and I hate it! I don't like powersteering now at all. I am a decently strong person but not the incredible hulk by any means, but I hardly even notice parking or any low speed driving anymore. I feel I have much better feel though :shrug: I dont know how someone could hate no ps

martini

Maybe it's just a lot harder to crank 255 series ultra high performance tires on a heavier car? Or maybe the suspension geometry is such that it's harder to crank. Who knows..I can tell you it certainly not because FD drivers are "pussbags".

There seems to be a decrepancy between the generations. Jerk Racer, let me drive your car without power steering, and I'll tell you if it's a lot easier to drive than the FD is without power steering..

when I was without power steering, I actually found my self power sliding around low speed corners just because I wouldn't have to turn the wheel as much.

GSracer. honestly, if you tried to parallel park an FD into a tight spot with no power steering, you would know how someone could hate no PS.

PS on the FD isn't very intrusive at all. You still get plenty of road feedback...

I suppose we could make an experiment out of it.. At a dead stop, you take an FC w/o power steering, and an FD without power steering, and use a pull type scale, hook it on to one of the steering wheel spokes, and see how much force is required to move the wheel at a dead stop. do the same with both cars, and compare results.

NOTA V6

Shouldn't bigger, wider tires make for easier steering without PS? My steering go a whole lot easier going from 5.5" width to 7" width on the same diameter tires.

peejay

Wider tires = more scrubbing.

P/S sucks anyway, the best of both worlds is a P/S rack/box (nice fast ratio) with no pump. Beauty!

jmseven

Okay...my turn....

I had to comment on this issue.

I did the manual rack conversion on my old T2. I did that because I started to drag race it. No need for extra weigt and no need to turn. There is one benefit.

On the other hand, the speed sensitive steering system is a wonderful tool.

Example. If I was to race identical cars on a road corse for 2 hours. What car/person would finish first.

Answer. The guy with the power steering. It just makes it easier to turn w/o too much effort.

If you rally your car...you cannot do it w/o power steering. Your reaction time drops, meaning you cannot afford to slide it due to the fact that you cannot react to the turn FAST enough.

My $.02.

tedpa

My RX7 never had power steering. I learned to drive long ago w/o ps. The 7 wouldn't be the same with it. Get moving to steer and park. Who needs it? Makes it easier to hand on when you boost.

NOTA V6

Do race cars have PS?

Jerk_Racer

Yeah, some race cars do. WRC cars do for sure. Just watch the highlights. Every now and then when a p/s system craps out it's a big deal. I don't like p/s, but when ever I buy a new car (Mitsu Lancer Evo7, cough, cough) it'll have and keep it's p/s. My car isn't pretty or that nice. I don't feel so bad about gutting stuff out of it. Resale value, what's that? Whoever buys my car from me will have to have a few screws loose.








pussbags....

BlackDragon

Let me give you the opinion of one who has been driving a '78 280Z with no power steering. First of all it has to do with the ratio of the gear box. I don't have to turn my Z's wheel very far but it is a PITA to turn (especially since it has a slightly smaller aftermarket steering wheel). Now its not bad on the road but since it is (was) a daily driver, when I was running errands, parking was HORRIBLE. In addition to that I would practice drifting in the rain (on empty streets, remember I live in a hicktown) and I'll tell ya one thing, it sucks HARDCORE when you need to make snap corrections for oversteer and your lack of powersteering makes it damn near impossible to do. Part of you is trying to make sensitive adjustments while the other half is conjuring the strength of both arms to turn the wheel quick enough to avoid losing the back end. Now, if you take a situation similer to AutoX (the twisty hills out here where there is like NO traffic) and you're winding your way up the RPM scale and taking turns. Well lets say you come to a turn where you have the need to down shift AND take the turn, you cannot make a hairpin turn this car with one arm (it just doesn't happen) ESPECIALLY while trying to downshift. Of course you could make the turn, then downshift, but you're losing precious time when you do that. So I find it is MUCH easier when I can easily turn the car from a complete left to a complete right with my left hand while retaining the ability to run through the gears at the same time. Now its all nice and good to be able to "Feel the road" like I can do in my Z, but if you're unable to turn, shift, and maintain balance while doing this without PS you're only putting yourself at a disadvantage. Now it's all very possible that the 7's gear ratio is sufficient that PS is not needed for quick and easy turning. HOWEVER it is very worthy to note that when one of the magazines (I believe it was motor trend or something) was building an ITS or SCCA car in the 80's when the 87 T2 came out THEY opted for PS because "It has a shorter gear box ratio" or something to that extent. I know the article is online somewhere but I don't have the link. Personally I opted for the PS in my T2 because I don't relish the idea of having to take my time away from shift control to make sure I have my steering 'under control'

Just a thought though.... *standing behind flame proof glass in a flame proof bunker with a flame proof BBQ Grill and some non-flame proof steaks*

BlackDragon

http://2ndgenrx7.freeservers.com/grassrootsproject.html

2nd paragraph under analyzing and baselining. Someone put the link under the 240SX vs. 7 post to prove something else.

fast13b

BlackDragon speaks well. I don't like him much though, he gets to live by Laguna Seca

PS or no PS for me has nothing to do with being a puss or not. It has everything to do with function and performance. If you are calling others a puss, that tells me that you are afraid of being labelled one yourself. Anyways...

If you drive AUTOX, (which is closest to street driving)you WILL be faster with PS.

If you drive ROAD RACING, you may or may not be faster with PS over one lap but surely will be faster over many laps. It's hard to focus a turn ahead when you are fighting the one you are on.

If you are a DRAG RACER, dump the PS.

I have personally had the following FC setups:
TII w/ PS, TII w/ PS disconnected, GTU w/ PS, GTU w/ PS disconnected, GTU w/ manual steering rack.

With the TII steering rack, it is so close ratio you never move your hands around the wheel on track. With the PS you are allowed to focus on the driving line, and not having to use the wheel as an auxillary means of holding on. With it disconnected, it is HARD to deal with on the street.

With the GTU, the rack is not quite as close ratio. You are definitley faster with the PS, but you can get by with it disconnected with some extra effort. With either rack disconnected it makes it very hard to catch snap oversteer.

With the manual rack, the ratio is MUCH looser, as it must be for the driver to be able to turn it easily. Cornering at the limit is very difficult when you have to cross your hands over to get the proper turn in then back to exit. Hated it. Perfect for drag.

~Jeremy

fast13b

That was me... Share the wealth

NOTA V6

"If you are calling others a puss, that tells me that you are afraid of being labelled one yourself. "




PS =



Lift weights or something girlie man.

fast13b

I do. Like yesterday afternoon, after I spent the morning ROCK CLIMBING...

NOTA V6

Good. Then no PS should be no problemo, unless you use jogging weights, and climb decorative lawn rocks.

I delivered pizza in my youth for 4 years with a '85 GSL with no PS. If you have ever delivered pies you know that there is a TON of parking involved, much of it parallel. If you haven't, I just clued you in.

So, my $.02 is PS in a car <3000 lbs. is lame.

fast13b

It has nothing to do with the weight of the car, it is the ratio of the rack. If your car came with NO PS, then the rack is ratioed such that it is easy to turn. If your car came WITH PS, and you simply remove the belt, then you now have a wheel that is MUCH harder to turn because the rack is a closer ratio. That is the point we are making here... How about a pic of your bicep as your avatar, eh?

BlackDragon

I'd forgotten your screen name fast13b and I was being too lazy to look it up. I figured you'd come around to seein this thread and I didn't wanna have it say "Yeah and some 13b or somethin guy like umm yeah he uhh posted that link umm in another thread and stuff" So I stuck with "Someone" hehehe

About Laguna, I haven't had a chance to race there yet hoping to get the T2 I just bought, brought up to snuff. Roll cage, 5 pt harness and all. But either way, hick towns rule for twisty roads <-whats this guys problem, he's a little too happy....

*blinks a few times* Damn I'm tired, 6 hours of sleep over 2 days has left me a little out of it. I'll come back later when I can do simple addition in my head (that is without using my fingers for help)


Edit: (Kind of ironic edit so I thought I'd actually expend energy to type this out) Basically up where it says "I haven't had a chance to race there yet hoping to get the T2 I just bought, bought up to snuff. " I meant to say BROUGHT up to snuff. But I guess with the way things go I'm pretty much just buying better parts for it. So "bought" up to snuff works too! woooo! I'm a little loopy....sorry bout that

NOTA V6

Umm... no it isn't.

Original post by honda_assassin: "Hey, guys. I've never had the chance to drive a car with no power steering. I'd like your opinions on this subject, because I'm planning on buying an RX-7 at the end of summer. Give me pros and cons, and be specific! Thanks."

No one asked about removing the PS belt on a PS equipped car to make a manual steering car out of it.

My opinion is that a car with no PS that is less than 3K lbs. has a better feel for the road. I have driven identical cars with and without, and PS is the driving equivalent of wearing a condom on your steering wheel.

Weight has everything to do with it. How many Lincolns or SUVs have you seen with manual steering lately? How many MGs or Fiat Spiders with PS have you EVER seen. There's a reason for all of that.

You can disagree with my opinion all you want, but that is what was asked for, and that is what I gave. If you have different point to prove about removing PS belts (which I happen to agree wholeheartedly with), go start a thread about it.

Would a picture of my bicep make you horny? Randy? Yeah baby, YEAH!

BlackDragon

I believe that fast13b was referring to the difference in steering ratios between PS cars an NON PS cars. Disagree with this fact? Let me give you the opinion of Grassroots Motorsports

If you would like to read more about this go to their site here http://2ndgenrx7.freeservers.com/grassrootsproject.html

Let me give it to you in laymans terms. You have to turn the steering-wheel less on the PS model, to get the same about of tire-wheel term. Which means that on the NON-PS model, you have to turn the wheel MORE to get the same reaction as on the PS model. Now, the reason they did that is because it makes it EASIER for the driver to turn the car because he's having to turn less of the car with each degree of rotation of the steering wheel. NOW, if you take a PS model car, cut the belt (or whatever you wanna do to make it NON-PS)then what you have is a car that its more difficult to turn than one that was designed WITHOUT PS.

It's right there, hopefully clear enough for everyone to understand. I'm not flaming everyone I'm just trying to make what fast13b was saying clearer to the rest of the readers and yourself. I will agree that the weight of the car makes a difference but here's a challenge for you. I'll take a PS model RX-7 and you take a PS model RX-7 with the PS taken out of it. We'll go somewhere around here in the hills and tie one of your hands to the shifter, and the other to the wheel (*shouts* Gamutepu desu machyu) and see who can take the turns with the most ease. I'd bet you money that you're going to be struggling when comparing it to the ease of my PS.

No flames here just in a good mood and tryin to make light of somethin. Lates all...