no start, spark& fuel. searched. tired. explained. help.
04-03-11, 08:12 PM
#1
no start, spark& fuel. searched. tired. explained. help.
Hey guys,
ive been dealing with this nonsense over winter. ive done my best to search and im at a dead end now.
13brew
bridgeport.
single turbo, ign amp.
spark AND fuel pressure holding.
ALL MY FUSES ARE GOOD, and they have always been good, never blown
with the plugs pulled, it makes 3 very powerful,even, whoosh sounds on each rotor
coolant is still good and green. i dont think its a coolant seal, i didnt overheat it.
powerfc powers on, sensor chk is good except fuel temp, but that shouldnt matter
last year:
Drifting an oval, i spun bogged. Car had a hard time starting. probably flooded it.
- leading 1 spark plug broke for some reason when i tried to take it out and deflood it.
- deflooding procudure done, still no start
- front rotor trailing coilpack starts meltings/smoking, changed with a good coilpack, no start.
- car could start running, but misfired badly, lots of white smoke. towed it to a friends
- battery was dead, idiot ex gf reverse booster cables, nothing would turn on
- took batter to get tested, battery was shot, replaced battery.
- still no start, would almost want to "catch" and fire up, but no dice. *TACH IS BOUNCING*
- thought it was a flooding issues, pulled the rails, replaced injectors. primed fuel pump with rails out and nothings leaks *didnt crank to see if they squirted*
this year:
-after replacing the fuel injectos and buttoning everyhing up, still doesnt start, *TACH STILL BOUNCES*
- diagnosed igniton side. one of my re-amemiya LEADING coil wires wasnt making any connection, replaced with NGK wires. changed out coilpacks at the same time.
- put everything back together, still doesnt start, I have spark for sure, checked every wire.
- *TACH NO LONGER IS BOUNCING* even though i hav trailing coil spark. trailing rotor is kind of oily/wet, front rotor is ok, no sign of fuel, did the deflood procedure, it sat all winter so im sure the housings had a bit of oil in them.
- checked powerfc commader, every timing cell was -25, and fuel map was 50 every cell, initialized powerfc, read stock map etc, still no start.
- friend came over with datalogit, uploaded my map from last year, on the datalogit it after "reading" shows my last years map, commanders still says -25 timing, 50 fuel.
So he is coming over tommorow with his power fc,
what else should i be looking at.
things that come to mind:
-I may have put the coilpack harness on backwards somehow? leading coil is plugged in properly, ing amp andall. will it matter if the trailing connectors into the coil packs are switched? blue connector goes to the rear trailing? white to the front?
-for some reason or another, my primary injectors arnt firing
-the programming for the powerfc is fucked
-there is some sort of broken connection somewher, is there a certain sensor that if "failed" will NOT allow the motor to start, even with spark and fuel?
Thanks all in advance, ive really exhausted everything here. Im really not oneto ask for help from anyone, but this is getting rediculous.
ive been dealing with this nonsense over winter. ive done my best to search and im at a dead end now.
13brew
bridgeport.
single turbo, ign amp.
spark AND fuel pressure holding.
ALL MY FUSES ARE GOOD, and they have always been good, never blown
with the plugs pulled, it makes 3 very powerful,even, whoosh sounds on each rotor
coolant is still good and green. i dont think its a coolant seal, i didnt overheat it.
powerfc powers on, sensor chk is good except fuel temp, but that shouldnt matter
last year:
Drifting an oval, i spun bogged. Car had a hard time starting. probably flooded it.
- leading 1 spark plug broke for some reason when i tried to take it out and deflood it.
- deflooding procudure done, still no start
- front rotor trailing coilpack starts meltings/smoking, changed with a good coilpack, no start.
- car could start running, but misfired badly, lots of white smoke. towed it to a friends
- battery was dead, idiot ex gf reverse booster cables, nothing would turn on
- took batter to get tested, battery was shot, replaced battery.
- still no start, would almost want to "catch" and fire up, but no dice. *TACH IS BOUNCING*
- thought it was a flooding issues, pulled the rails, replaced injectors. primed fuel pump with rails out and nothings leaks *didnt crank to see if they squirted*
this year:
-after replacing the fuel injectos and buttoning everyhing up, still doesnt start, *TACH STILL BOUNCES*
- diagnosed igniton side. one of my re-amemiya LEADING coil wires wasnt making any connection, replaced with NGK wires. changed out coilpacks at the same time.
- put everything back together, still doesnt start, I have spark for sure, checked every wire.
- *TACH NO LONGER IS BOUNCING* even though i hav trailing coil spark. trailing rotor is kind of oily/wet, front rotor is ok, no sign of fuel, did the deflood procedure, it sat all winter so im sure the housings had a bit of oil in them.
- checked powerfc commader, every timing cell was -25, and fuel map was 50 every cell, initialized powerfc, read stock map etc, still no start.
- friend came over with datalogit, uploaded my map from last year, on the datalogit it after "reading" shows my last years map, commanders still says -25 timing, 50 fuel.
So he is coming over tommorow with his power fc,
what else should i be looking at.
things that come to mind:
-I may have put the coilpack harness on backwards somehow? leading coil is plugged in properly, ing amp andall. will it matter if the trailing connectors into the coil packs are switched? blue connector goes to the rear trailing? white to the front?
-for some reason or another, my primary injectors arnt firing
-the programming for the powerfc is fucked
-there is some sort of broken connection somewher, is there a certain sensor that if "failed" will NOT allow the motor to start, even with spark and fuel?
Thanks all in advance, ive really exhausted everything here. Im really not oneto ask for help from anyone, but this is getting rediculous.
Last edited by ILoveJDM; 04-03-11 at 08:22 PM.
04-03-11, 08:35 PM
#2
Lets see....
Def sounds like you had some ugly electrical issues. Assuming wiring is good and connected correctly, crank angle sensors, coils, plug wires, plugs, etc. are correct.
Etc. etc. etc...
Not to sound stupid, but have you by any chance tried to pull or push start the car? The reason I ask is because you mentioned flooding & de-flooding procedure.
I have always had good luck pull starting the car (basically eliminating "crank"), when it is flooded or thinks its flooded.
That spark plug breaking and the melting sounds ugly bro. Why did the spark plug break exactly
.
Good luck with that.
Etc. etc. etc...
Not to sound stupid, but have you by any chance tried to pull or push start the car? The reason I ask is because you mentioned flooding & de-flooding procedure.
I have always had good luck pull starting the car (basically eliminating "crank"), when it is flooded or thinks its flooded.
That spark plug breaking and the melting sounds ugly bro. Why did the spark plug break exactly
.Good luck with that.
04-04-11, 01:14 PM
#5
i would also get some new freinds, who don't try to destroy the car while trying to diagnose it.
i don't know where to start with helping you in this snowball of a mess but i will say you need to restart with the basics which is:
compression
fuel
ignition
those 3 things are ALL you need to start the engine. don't keep messing with things until you rule one thing out at a time and you KNOW that what you just tested is ok.
do a compression test with an actual compression tester, not the poor mans compression sound. even though the engine may sound healthy it may have a semi damaged seal which will sound somewhat ok with the poor mans compression test, but will show up as a weak bounce on an actual real man's compression test, which can cause flooding during starting.
next test for spark, which is as simple as placing 4 good spark plugs onto a ground point on the car, hook up the leads and crank the engine.
lastly is fuel, check the plugs after cranking them to see if both leadings are wet and smell like fuel.
to test the integrity of the cooling system requires a cooling system pressure tester which you can rent from most large auto parts stores such as Orielly's or Autozone. pressurize the cooling system to 15 PSI, remove the EGI fuse, dry off the plugs and install the leadings loosely into the motor and crank it over for about 3-4 seconds and remove the leading plugs, if either have coolant on them then you have a bad coolant seal in the engine(indiciative of the white smoke you referred to which will cause the engine to be difficult to start because coolant does NOT ignite and WILL foul the plugs).
if you keep randomly pulling things apart to test them you will create more headaches in likelihood of screwing something else up in your diagnostic technique while moving on to other things which will make it more difficult to diagnose the actual problem. i have seen plenty of people start pulling the CAS out and messing with ignition timing, it is NOT the root cause if the engine ran properly before with the SAME ignition timing for example. the timing does not magically change unless you physically change it, with this example so think before acting on each step or ask if unsure.
pull starting the car is a good way to get a severely flooded engine deflooded or if you have a bad water seal, to get the cranking RPMs high enough to clear the coolant out of the chambers to at least gauge if the engine is burning coolant(ie white smoke that smells sweet accompanied by hotter operating temperatures and excessive cooling system pressure, also ie balooned up radiator hoses).
if the tach is not bouncing then you probably have an ignition issue still, the ignition gets it's power from the EGI fuse in the engine bay. if the coils are not getting power then the tach will not bounce nor will you be getting any spark. it will also not bounce if the ECU is not getting power from the "engine" fuse in the cabin, but your PFC display also will not be coming on if the ECU is not powering up.
i don't know where to start with helping you in this snowball of a mess but i will say you need to restart with the basics which is:
compression
fuel
ignition
those 3 things are ALL you need to start the engine. don't keep messing with things until you rule one thing out at a time and you KNOW that what you just tested is ok.
do a compression test with an actual compression tester, not the poor mans compression sound. even though the engine may sound healthy it may have a semi damaged seal which will sound somewhat ok with the poor mans compression test, but will show up as a weak bounce on an actual real man's compression test, which can cause flooding during starting.
next test for spark, which is as simple as placing 4 good spark plugs onto a ground point on the car, hook up the leads and crank the engine.
lastly is fuel, check the plugs after cranking them to see if both leadings are wet and smell like fuel.
to test the integrity of the cooling system requires a cooling system pressure tester which you can rent from most large auto parts stores such as Orielly's or Autozone. pressurize the cooling system to 15 PSI, remove the EGI fuse, dry off the plugs and install the leadings loosely into the motor and crank it over for about 3-4 seconds and remove the leading plugs, if either have coolant on them then you have a bad coolant seal in the engine(indiciative of the white smoke you referred to which will cause the engine to be difficult to start because coolant does NOT ignite and WILL foul the plugs).
if you keep randomly pulling things apart to test them you will create more headaches in likelihood of screwing something else up in your diagnostic technique while moving on to other things which will make it more difficult to diagnose the actual problem. i have seen plenty of people start pulling the CAS out and messing with ignition timing, it is NOT the root cause if the engine ran properly before with the SAME ignition timing for example. the timing does not magically change unless you physically change it, with this example so think before acting on each step or ask if unsure.
pull starting the car is a good way to get a severely flooded engine deflooded or if you have a bad water seal, to get the cranking RPMs high enough to clear the coolant out of the chambers to at least gauge if the engine is burning coolant(ie white smoke that smells sweet accompanied by hotter operating temperatures and excessive cooling system pressure, also ie balooned up radiator hoses).
if the tach is not bouncing then you probably have an ignition issue still, the ignition gets it's power from the EGI fuse in the engine bay. if the coils are not getting power then the tach will not bounce nor will you be getting any spark. it will also not bounce if the ECU is not getting power from the "engine" fuse in the cabin, but your PFC display also will not be coming on if the ECU is not powering up.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 04-04-11 at 01:26 PM.
04-04-11, 03:49 PM
#6
Friend came over and brought his powerfc, didnt change a thing but we did notice something
the pim sensor was highlighted, and im sure thats the map sensor. how it broke, who knows, i have a gm 3 bar sitting beside me that i will wire in tonight
i also pulled the intake mani off and pull the fuel rails to see if he primaries were een working, i have fuel pressure. turn key, not even a drop. held it for 15 secs, no fuel. powerfc is seeing injector duty, i have voltage at the injector clips, so both my injectors just stopped working.....apparently. i have a set of 850's in a machined rail ill put in tonight as well and see what happens.
i cant believe how much broke in one day at the track.
the pim sensor was highlighted, and im sure thats the map sensor. how it broke, who knows, i have a gm 3 bar sitting beside me that i will wire in tonight
i also pulled the intake mani off and pull the fuel rails to see if he primaries were een working, i have fuel pressure. turn key, not even a drop. held it for 15 secs, no fuel. powerfc is seeing injector duty, i have voltage at the injector clips, so both my injectors just stopped working.....apparently. i have a set of 850's in a machined rail ill put in tonight as well and see what happens.
i cant believe how much broke in one day at the track.
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04-04-11, 05:09 PM
#8
ReDux
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Damn if this doesnt sound like an exact mirror of my starting prblems:
No spark, no injector duty cycle when cranking, no tach bouncing, no nothing but PFC powers on and I have voltage to the injectors and coils. Anyway I have a local guy who is a Rotorhead and Master ASE elec Tech checking it out.
Will post up when he gets to diagnosing soon
No spark, no injector duty cycle when cranking, no tach bouncing, no nothing but PFC powers on and I have voltage to the injectors and coils. Anyway I have a local guy who is a Rotorhead and Master ASE elec Tech checking it out.
Will post up when he gets to diagnosing soon
04-04-11, 08:01 PM
#10
the injectors get their pulse signal from the ECU which gets it's ground fed from the grounded ring terminal bolted to the rear rotor housing, so if you have that unbolted after taking the fuel rail out then you won't have an injector pulse signal but the ECU will turn on and register just fine.
the MAP sensor either died or you have a short from the signal wire to the 5 volt reference. unplug the sensor and see if it reads 0 volts, if it does then you have a bad sensor, if it still reads 5 volts then you have a short.
easy peezy.
be careful if tossing the 3 bar map sensor in over the 2 bar, it will need the PIM/options changed and will need to be re-tuned unless you get the PIM figures EXACTLY configured versus the 2 bar, which usually is a pipe dream even if you set it to only configure to run off the 2 bar maps you have loaded. so basically if your map sensor is dead and you get it running, be careful with the 3 bar otherwise you likely will pop the motor even if it seems to run ok with a seemingly correct PIM configuration.
you can translate all the figures over but it requires alot of time spent pressurizing the system on both sensors to get calibration figures to place in the new cells of the new 2/3 bar maps.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 04-04-11 at 08:07 PM.
04-04-11, 08:57 PM
#11
the injectors get voltage from the EGI fuse.
the injectors get their pulse signal from the ECU which gets it's ground fed from the grounded ring terminal bolted to the rear rotor housing, so if you have that unbolted after taking the fuel rail out then you won't have an injector pulse signal but the ECU will turn on and register just fine.
the MAP sensor either died or you have a short from the signal wire to the 5 volt reference. unplug the sensor and see if it reads 0 volts, if it does then you have a bad sensor, if it still reads 5 volts then you have a short.
easy peezy.
be careful if tossing the 3 bar map sensor in over the 2 bar, it will need the PIM/options changed and will need to be re-tuned unless you get the PIM figures EXACTLY configured versus the 2 bar, which usually is a pipe dream even if you set it to only configure to run off the 2 bar maps you have loaded. so basically if your map sensor is dead and you get it running, be careful with the 3 bar otherwise you likely will pop the motor even if it seems to run ok with a seemingly correct PIM configuration.
you can translate all the figures over but it requires alot of time spent pressurizing the system on both sensors to get calibration figures to place in the new cells of the new 2/3 bar maps.
the injectors get their pulse signal from the ECU which gets it's ground fed from the grounded ring terminal bolted to the rear rotor housing, so if you have that unbolted after taking the fuel rail out then you won't have an injector pulse signal but the ECU will turn on and register just fine.
the MAP sensor either died or you have a short from the signal wire to the 5 volt reference. unplug the sensor and see if it reads 0 volts, if it does then you have a bad sensor, if it still reads 5 volts then you have a short.
easy peezy.
be careful if tossing the 3 bar map sensor in over the 2 bar, it will need the PIM/options changed and will need to be re-tuned unless you get the PIM figures EXACTLY configured versus the 2 bar, which usually is a pipe dream even if you set it to only configure to run off the 2 bar maps you have loaded. so basically if your map sensor is dead and you get it running, be careful with the 3 bar otherwise you likely will pop the motor even if it seems to run ok with a seemingly correct PIM configuration.
you can translate all the figures over but it requires alot of time spent pressurizing the system on both sensors to get calibration figures to place in the new cells of the new 2/3 bar maps.
when I pulled the fuel rails, the 2 grounds on the back of the intake mani i regrounded to the lower manifold.im not sure if you meant those, or if theyre grounded underneith to the actual rotor housing somewhere
the map sensor was reading 4.99 volts unplugged. so im sure there is a short
as for the 3 bar i will be ok.. im not sure if ill even put it in right away anymore since its a short and not a bad sensor. I tuned my car myself the way it sits right now at 500rwhp. Go figure i can tune, but i need help diagnosing a no start
this is also my first rotary. im probably just working too fast and missing the smallest things.
04-07-11, 01:51 PM
#14
S4 only had one 12mm bolt ground ring terminal that bolted to the top of the rear rotor housing. S5 had the same S4 ground plus one 10mm bolt that grounded to the top mount intercooler support bracket.
there is also a small 12gauge ground wire that runs from the firewall near the wiper motor to the top of the transmission but that ground is rather irrelevant and just there for moral support from the engine to the chassis.
the 12mm ground wire on top of the rear rotor housing is the main ground circuit for the injection system, without it the injectors won't pulse. i'm not sure if yours is grounded to the lower intake or where but it is supposed to be bolted to the rear rotor housing, not that it has to be but i'm not 100% sure if we're talking about the same ground terminal.
at any rate, i think the MAP sensor was the main issue and the wires somehow got melted together inside the harness or pinched during some assembly work on the car and are shorted together now, somehow caused by the rearward stall out that probably yanked on the wiring. i doubt the injection issue popped up at the same time coincidentally so something you disassembled caused that issue.
there is also a small 12gauge ground wire that runs from the firewall near the wiper motor to the top of the transmission but that ground is rather irrelevant and just there for moral support from the engine to the chassis.
the 12mm ground wire on top of the rear rotor housing is the main ground circuit for the injection system, without it the injectors won't pulse. i'm not sure if yours is grounded to the lower intake or where but it is supposed to be bolted to the rear rotor housing, not that it has to be but i'm not 100% sure if we're talking about the same ground terminal.
at any rate, i think the MAP sensor was the main issue and the wires somehow got melted together inside the harness or pinched during some assembly work on the car and are shorted together now, somehow caused by the rearward stall out that probably yanked on the wiring. i doubt the injection issue popped up at the same time coincidentally so something you disassembled caused that issue.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 04-07-11 at 01:55 PM.
04-07-11, 04:00 PM
#15
S4 only had one 12mm bolt ground ring terminal that bolted to the top of the rear rotor housing. S5 had the same S4 ground plus one 10mm bolt that grounded to the top mount intercooler support bracket.
there is also a small 12gauge ground wire that runs from the firewall near the wiper motor to the top of the transmission but that ground is rather irrelevant and just there for moral support from the engine to the chassis.
the 12mm ground wire on top of the rear rotor housing is the main ground circuit for the injection system, without it the injectors won't pulse. i'm not sure if yours is grounded to the lower intake or where but it is supposed to be bolted to the rear rotor housing, not that it has to be but i'm not 100% sure if we're talking about the same ground terminal.
at any rate, i think the MAP sensor was the main issue and the wires somehow got melted together inside the harness or pinched during some assembly work on the car and are shorted together now, somehow caused by the rearward stall out that probably yanked on the wiring. i doubt the injection issue popped up at the same time coincidentally so something you disassembled caused that issue.
there is also a small 12gauge ground wire that runs from the firewall near the wiper motor to the top of the transmission but that ground is rather irrelevant and just there for moral support from the engine to the chassis.
the 12mm ground wire on top of the rear rotor housing is the main ground circuit for the injection system, without it the injectors won't pulse. i'm not sure if yours is grounded to the lower intake or where but it is supposed to be bolted to the rear rotor housing, not that it has to be but i'm not 100% sure if we're talking about the same ground terminal.
at any rate, i think the MAP sensor was the main issue and the wires somehow got melted together inside the harness or pinched during some assembly work on the car and are shorted together now, somehow caused by the rearward stall out that probably yanked on the wiring. i doubt the injection issue popped up at the same time coincidentally so something you disassembled caused that issue.
I checked the 12mm ground on te rear housing, under the coils, everything is ok there
i dont think the map and injector issue would be related, as thyre on seperate harnesses all together.
new note though, my powerfc with ign on is reading .9 bar of boost, and 10deg ignition timing. i think there is a short in the injector/cas harness somewhere, but the map sensor itsself seems fine. i tried to trace the harness back thru the fender well and couldnt see anyhting of significance, i cant find the brown/white map sensor wire at the ecu side anywhere.
i tried testing the map sensor harness, i have continuity at the green/yellow wire harness connector to ecu side, i cant trace the brown wire, this is 5v? and the middle ground im not sure how to test, i put a pin in the ground connector harness side, and touch the other multimeter pin to a ground and i get nothing s it must be grounded else where?
i can see the wires getting pinched together or broken, i was touching the inecjtor harness during the winter (-30-40c), im also only getting 3v to the injectors with ign on
see my other thread here:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/what-conditions-need-met-before-fuel-injectors-fire-949098/
Last edited by ILoveJDM; 04-07-11 at 04:05 PM.
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