My dad thinks rotaries are crap: How to convince him otherwise?
10-28-04, 02:00 AM
#27
Originally Posted by aznpoopy
that's pretty amazing rotarygod... were u the sole owner?
11-01-04, 06:47 PM
#28
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just watch the 16 minute video of a half-dead rotary at redline. I don't think any piston engine could do that. Also notice that the rx-8 holds some 49 international endurance records.
11-04-04, 12:37 PM
#29
I'm too old for this sh!t
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How to sell someone on a rotary car
1. Emphasize performance (power/weight) and handling. There aren't very many cars that can be had for what T2s are going for that handles nearly as well. This includes braking. Better handling = safer.
2. Emphasize ease of maintenance and availability of support (download the factory manuals and parts diagrams). Show websites like mazdatrix, racing beat, atkins, etc. that sell these parts by the metric ton. With no terribly special tools you can rebuild a rotary engine in your driveway in an afternoon. I think my first was about 24 hours limp in to drive away.
3. Older car = better insurance.
4. The rest of the car is normal car technology. Multi-point fuel injection, normal AC and steering, relatively normal emissions (cats and air pump), Macpherson strut suspension and trailing arms. Nothing except the engine internals is any different than any other car out there.
If he still won't bite, get him to drive a miata. Tell him the RX is fun like that but faster, and since it has a roof it's safer.
2. Emphasize ease of maintenance and availability of support (download the factory manuals and parts diagrams). Show websites like mazdatrix, racing beat, atkins, etc. that sell these parts by the metric ton. With no terribly special tools you can rebuild a rotary engine in your driveway in an afternoon. I think my first was about 24 hours limp in to drive away.
3. Older car = better insurance.
4. The rest of the car is normal car technology. Multi-point fuel injection, normal AC and steering, relatively normal emissions (cats and air pump), Macpherson strut suspension and trailing arms. Nothing except the engine internals is any different than any other car out there.
If he still won't bite, get him to drive a miata. Tell him the RX is fun like that but faster, and since it has a roof it's safer.
11-07-04, 08:35 PM
#30
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Eh... Right now I've sort of given up on my RX-7 dreams for now since the insurance for the Hachiroku is about 1/3rd of a TII... doh. Not to mention better gas mileage.
Now trying to actually FIND a Hachiroku (GTS! Not SR5!) fairly close and for a god deal in good condition...
1. Performance is not why my parents will help me buy a car... They don't think I need a fast car, nor do I think they'd think I need a two-seater. Even if better handling can make it easier to avoid accidents (but then again too much condifence about confidence has caused far more accidents than poor handling alone)...good brakes are a good thing, though.
2. I don't he'd beleive me if I told him it was easy. Heh...
3. $207 a month isn't what I'd qualify as good... as much as I'd like to have one. Hachiroku = $70 a month.
4. My family has still heard nothing but bad things about 7's (some from owners, some from people who have been in the car business for decades), although I'm sure some of those things were unfounded.
And he probably HAS driven a Miata before. In fact, I think he had a former girlfriend with an FB. He liked it (fast), but he thought it was a piece of junk.
Now trying to actually FIND a Hachiroku (GTS! Not SR5!) fairly close and for a god deal in good condition...
1. Performance is not why my parents will help me buy a car... They don't think I need a fast car, nor do I think they'd think I need a two-seater. Even if better handling can make it easier to avoid accidents (but then again too much condifence about confidence has caused far more accidents than poor handling alone)...good brakes are a good thing, though.
2. I don't he'd beleive me if I told him it was easy. Heh...
3. $207 a month isn't what I'd qualify as good... as much as I'd like to have one. Hachiroku = $70 a month.
4. My family has still heard nothing but bad things about 7's (some from owners, some from people who have been in the car business for decades), although I'm sure some of those things were unfounded.
And he probably HAS driven a Miata before. In fact, I think he had a former girlfriend with an FB. He liked it (fast), but he thought it was a piece of junk.
11-10-04, 02:50 AM
#31
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Just tell your dad that a rotary has three power strokes per one revolution compared to that damn reciprocating engine that only has one power stroke per two revolutions (what a waste of energy)!!!
That should change his mind. J/K
That should change his mind. J/K
11-10-04, 02:26 PM
#33
It shouldn't be an issue of reliability ever since Mazda modernized their engines in 1974. No offense, but your dad is about 30 years behind the times.
To me, reliable means no valves to adjust—ever. Reliable also means that someone who isn't a specialist, like myself, can pull, tear down, clean, inspect, and rebuild with a few replacement parts such as apex seals or whatever for a couple hundred bucks, and then get many, many more thousands of miles out of the engine. No machining required. In other words, I can rely on myself to be able to reliably perform the R&R process without requiring a hot tank, glass bead machine, line honing machine, etc. I also get peace of mind knowing that there is no way that a con rod can break, a valve can fall onto a piston, a timing chain, gear or belt can break or skip a tooth, and all major components such as alternator, water pump etc are all up within easy reach; if a component does fail, swaping it is not back breaking labor.
The only special or rotary-only tools I have are a 2 1/8" impact socket and uh... a flywheel locker I got from Mazdatrix, and the flywheel locker itself is not even necessary. The impact socket is just a standard socket like what you'd find at any decent hardware store (it's not built specifically for a rotary). I can't think of anything else at the moment. A rotary requires less tools.
A rotary is about as difficult to rebuild as a carb. Without getting into all the what ifs, can deciding on freshening-up of a rotary every 100k be compared equally to rebuilding a boinger at the same intervals? Some ignorant people would think that a rotary must be a bad design because an engine rebuild always requires tons of money and is not usually required on boingers at only 100k. I guess to the masses, it's the end-all of an era to have the engine, the most important part of any car, rebuilt. Oh puh-lease! Most of those people have had brake jobs performed on their cars. Are brakes a bad design since they tend to wear from normal use? What about drum vs disk brakes? What about mufflers and radiators?
Yeah, I don't buy the argument that rotaries are less reliable than piston engines when they are so different mechanically, yet are compared the same. Most Americans tend to run their cars into the ground. It's not good for any engine to miss service intervals. Just because a piston engine can often live after overheating or running out of oil does mean I need to be impressed about it. Well, it did impress me when I was like 10 or something.
Well, my stance on this issue is that since rotaries are not difficult to rebuild, do not require any special tools (you can build a flywheel locker and the nut can be loosened with a chisel if necessary), and can be handled (the rear plate is the heaviest part) by anybody whom can tie their own shoes, feed themselves, and turn a wrench (well, most of the time, heh), anybody can rebuild a rotary. The dreaded R word should not be feared by us as it often is to boinger folk. Or maybe I'm just weird because I'm more mechanically inclined than most? Nah, I still don't like doing brake jobs because I find them tedious (I'd honestly rather do an engine rebuild than a brake job, probably because I haven't done enough brake jobs to have acquired a taste for them yet).
To me, reliable means no valves to adjust—ever. Reliable also means that someone who isn't a specialist, like myself, can pull, tear down, clean, inspect, and rebuild with a few replacement parts such as apex seals or whatever for a couple hundred bucks, and then get many, many more thousands of miles out of the engine. No machining required. In other words, I can rely on myself to be able to reliably perform the R&R process without requiring a hot tank, glass bead machine, line honing machine, etc. I also get peace of mind knowing that there is no way that a con rod can break, a valve can fall onto a piston, a timing chain, gear or belt can break or skip a tooth, and all major components such as alternator, water pump etc are all up within easy reach; if a component does fail, swaping it is not back breaking labor.
The only special or rotary-only tools I have are a 2 1/8" impact socket and uh... a flywheel locker I got from Mazdatrix, and the flywheel locker itself is not even necessary. The impact socket is just a standard socket like what you'd find at any decent hardware store (it's not built specifically for a rotary). I can't think of anything else at the moment. A rotary requires less tools.
A rotary is about as difficult to rebuild as a carb. Without getting into all the what ifs, can deciding on freshening-up of a rotary every 100k be compared equally to rebuilding a boinger at the same intervals? Some ignorant people would think that a rotary must be a bad design because an engine rebuild always requires tons of money and is not usually required on boingers at only 100k. I guess to the masses, it's the end-all of an era to have the engine, the most important part of any car, rebuilt. Oh puh-lease! Most of those people have had brake jobs performed on their cars. Are brakes a bad design since they tend to wear from normal use? What about drum vs disk brakes? What about mufflers and radiators?
Yeah, I don't buy the argument that rotaries are less reliable than piston engines when they are so different mechanically, yet are compared the same. Most Americans tend to run their cars into the ground. It's not good for any engine to miss service intervals. Just because a piston engine can often live after overheating or running out of oil does mean I need to be impressed about it. Well, it did impress me when I was like 10 or something.
Well, my stance on this issue is that since rotaries are not difficult to rebuild, do not require any special tools (you can build a flywheel locker and the nut can be loosened with a chisel if necessary), and can be handled (the rear plate is the heaviest part) by anybody whom can tie their own shoes, feed themselves, and turn a wrench (well, most of the time, heh), anybody can rebuild a rotary. The dreaded R word should not be feared by us as it often is to boinger folk. Or maybe I'm just weird because I'm more mechanically inclined than most? Nah, I still don't like doing brake jobs because I find them tedious (I'd honestly rather do an engine rebuild than a brake job, probably because I haven't done enough brake jobs to have acquired a taste for them yet).
Last edited by Jeff20B; 11-10-04 at 02:29 PM.
11-10-04, 03:02 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by Valkyrie
Eh... Right now I've sort of given up on my RX-7 dreams for now since the insurance for the Hachiroku is about 1/3rd of a TII... doh. Not to mention better gas mileage.
Now trying to actually FIND a Hachiroku (GTS! Not SR5!) fairly close and for a god deal in good condition...
Now trying to actually FIND a Hachiroku (GTS! Not SR5!) fairly close and for a god deal in good condition...
[rant]
P.S. I hate reading this type of thing. I've got friends that were getting new cars before they went away to college. They could have been cool, and gotten the STi that they wanted, but instead they were pussies, and went with Saabs or whatever, because their parents thought they were safer. Now, they're stuck with a car they never wanted, all because they were too lazy/afraid to strike out and do their own thing. If you've got any sense of responsibility, who gives a **** what your dad thinks about servicing the car; you're going to be the one having to support it.
[/rant]
Just my two cents.
11-10-04, 03:32 PM
#35
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your dads off his rocker
iv had my 7 for bout 1 yr now an i go all over va in it its a 90 with a 13b i would not give it up for any thing i say **** on other cars 7s are here to stay o i only gave 1200$ for it an had not one thing wrong with it at all i love me 7
11-10-04, 03:48 PM
#36
Need an Rx
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rx-7s rock
You might also tell your dad that if you like your car youll be much more likely to take better care of it and be more interested in maintaining it yourself. As far as reliability, I know a guy in Austin that has 240k+ on an 87! All he's done to it is ROUTINE maintenance. And I gaurantee youll like your rx a hell of a lot better than any honda including the supra or the trueno.
P.s. insurance shouldn't be that high I'd look around more mine isn't that high and I've lost my license twice(you think I'd learn)!
P.s. insurance shouldn't be that high I'd look around more mine isn't that high and I've lost my license twice(you think I'd learn)!
Last edited by FBLUV'r; 11-10-04 at 03:52 PM.
11-11-04, 02:51 PM
#38
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some people are just not open minded, my aunt and uncle are nissan/toyota worshippers. Its a religion to them and i can't convince them otherwise. An oil gush from a nissan is nothing, but a small leak from the oil cooler line of an rx7 is OH MY GOD!! true story. my mom however didn't care. She was like "its gonna break, its too old"
I said, "no its not, no it isn't"
"ok" problem solved.
ideas:
look for pictures of crashed cars of other cars and say you couldn't find an rx7 crash because there that safe!
go get the cash from them buy one yourself and put a honda rx7 badge on there And a certified used toyota sticker
tell them you found one with a piston motor conversion. when he notices it will be too late.
I said, "no its not, no it isn't"
"ok" problem solved.
ideas:
look for pictures of crashed cars of other cars and say you couldn't find an rx7 crash because there that safe!
go get the cash from them buy one yourself and put a honda rx7 badge on there And a certified used toyota sticker
tell them you found one with a piston motor conversion. when he notices it will be too late.
11-11-04, 11:37 PM
#39
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by a7r
Have your parents buy you a Honda Civic Hatch from the mid 90s.
I will never drive a Civic. Ever.
My compromises are either a 240SX or a Hachiroku. No more, no less.
Right now I'm not worried about the rotary's reliability... mainly the price of insurance, and other problems that plague the RX-7.
$207 a month (if Progressive's online quote is right) for insurance is just a bit much, unless I get a job that pays a good amount while I'm at school.
In two or three years, I would have spent more on insurance than on the car itself.
And the mileage... wouldn't be as bad if they didn't run off of premium. But that's still not the big problem.
Also, S5 TII's seem just too damn hard to find (but then again, so are Corolla GT-S's). Although I could probably buy an S4 with a blown engine on the cheap (although I'd have to ship it since they're impossible to find where I live, and shipping a non-running car is expensive), put a Kouki J-spec Turbo engine in it, switch out the tail lights and steering wheel, bang, instant S5. :P
Right now I'm frustrated because I'm not making any money, and can't buy a car myself since I'm in Japan, so I have to wait till next summer.
I want to drive, dammit. It's been two months since I've held a real steering wheel or a real shift ****. Although arcade games help a little
Last edited by Valkyrie; 11-11-04 at 11:40 PM.
11-11-04, 11:47 PM
#40
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Just get a N/A, they're almost as quick as a Celica GT-S and smoke a 240SX (at least my S5 does) and that's BS about all the reliabilty stuff, but I think the other forum members properly extinquished that flame of doubt. As for insurance, I pay $60/mo for my '91 N/A and I'm only 22.
11-12-04, 01:33 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by Valkyrie
My dad asked a car dealer friend of his about the RX-7 (told him he was looking for an FC Turbo II), and the guy laughed at him.
Arg.
He said he hadn't seen one of them in years, and that they're peices of junk.
And that no one will work on rotaries.
Wtf.
I don't get why they're peices of junk if there's still so many of them running around.
And now my parents are demanding to know why I want this particular car. And as if they would help me buy one over the internet (ie, the only place to find one when you're in Alabama or are not incredible lucky).
So much hate for the 7 :P
Arg.
He said he hadn't seen one of them in years, and that they're peices of junk.
And that no one will work on rotaries.
Wtf.
I don't get why they're peices of junk if there's still so many of them running around.
And now my parents are demanding to know why I want this particular car. And as if they would help me buy one over the internet (ie, the only place to find one when you're in Alabama or are not incredible lucky).
So much hate for the 7 :P
Dude..there are so many FCs in Alabama..just in Huntsville alone!
11-12-04, 02:30 AM
#42
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Well, I live in Baldwin County (the opposite side of the state), and I've never seen one for sale (although I DID see a Turbo Supra for sale... the 80's model).
And if a guy who goes to car auctions several times a week in Mobile hasn't seen one in years, I really wonder.
I did have a guy tell me that the best place to look for cars for sale is to ask street racers... hahaha...
But then again, he also claimed there was a guy selling two running NA FC's for $50 each simply because he got a big truck and wasn't interested in them any more.
And if a guy who goes to car auctions several times a week in Mobile hasn't seen one in years, I really wonder.
I did have a guy tell me that the best place to look for cars for sale is to ask street racers... hahaha...
But then again, he also claimed there was a guy selling two running NA FC's for $50 each simply because he got a big truck and wasn't interested in them any more.
11-12-04, 11:33 AM
#43
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Your local car salesman is there to sell you what he has in stock. If he doesn’t have it, he will always say there is something wrong with what you’re looking for. For example; go to a BMW lot and tell them you’re looking for a Mercedes. You’ll hear every reason under the sun why a Benz is crap and the BMW heaps they have in stock are much better.
I’ve put 425,000+ RELIABLE miles on an 89 NA. Is a Toyota/Nissan/Honda reliable? Sure. However that doesn’t mean a rotary is not. At this point, the lack of reliability is due to whatever you’re looking for being 15 years old and having been massaged by every hack in North America. But here’s the catch – 15 year old piston engine cars have the same problem. Go grab an 87 Mitsu Starion. See if you can put another 100K trouble free miles on that.
I’ve put 425,000+ RELIABLE miles on an 89 NA. Is a Toyota/Nissan/Honda reliable? Sure. However that doesn’t mean a rotary is not. At this point, the lack of reliability is due to whatever you’re looking for being 15 years old and having been massaged by every hack in North America. But here’s the catch – 15 year old piston engine cars have the same problem. Go grab an 87 Mitsu Starion. See if you can put another 100K trouble free miles on that.
11-12-04, 11:48 AM
#44
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
He's not just a car salesman, he's a personal friend of my dad's, which is why he asked him about it.
I'm looking into the FC again, $200 a month insurance or not... hehe.
I'm looking at one 300 miles away that I had ignored before since it's heavily modified (nothing a little boost lowering can't "fix"...) for $6000 (not like I'd be willing to pay that much, but I figure maybe $5000...) It's an 88 TII but it has an S5 engine, interior, and headlights.
I sorta wonder what kind of gas mileage a 285 RWHP FC has... ehehehe...
I'm looking into the FC again, $200 a month insurance or not... hehe.
I'm looking at one 300 miles away that I had ignored before since it's heavily modified (nothing a little boost lowering can't "fix"...) for $6000 (not like I'd be willing to pay that much, but I figure maybe $5000...) It's an 88 TII but it has an S5 engine, interior, and headlights.
I sorta wonder what kind of gas mileage a 285 RWHP FC has... ehehehe...
Last edited by Valkyrie; 11-12-04 at 12:04 PM.
11-12-04, 10:54 PM
#45
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Just get liability coverage. I'm 21 with a pretty shady driving record, and I only pay $85 a month, I was paying $119 a month before I hit 21. When the speeding tickect comes off my record (55 in a 45), It will only cost me $63 a month for liability insurance. I had to work my **** off to get my RX-7's...my dad also thought rotaries were **** buckets.
He still isn't really into the car, and he doesn't understand why I'd rather mess with an older car than just have a nice new car given to me. (00 z24 cavalier...la de da) I appreciate that my parents provided me with an automobile, it just was not the car I wanted. I also like to work on them, its a learning experience for me, and it keeps me out of trouble. However, once he started working on it with me, he started to like some of the simplicity of working on it. Most things are easily accessible and easy to work on with a FC. I chose the FC because I found it a car that was facisnating to me, one that I had previous experience with, and because I found it a lot more simple to tinker with than my cavalier ever was.
I don't really know what else to tell you, I would just save and try to get one on my own. You will appreciate it more in the long run, and you will also be less willing to take risks with it since it will be all your loss when you biff and destroy it.
He still isn't really into the car, and he doesn't understand why I'd rather mess with an older car than just have a nice new car given to me. (00 z24 cavalier...la de da) I appreciate that my parents provided me with an automobile, it just was not the car I wanted. I also like to work on them, its a learning experience for me, and it keeps me out of trouble. However, once he started working on it with me, he started to like some of the simplicity of working on it. Most things are easily accessible and easy to work on with a FC. I chose the FC because I found it a car that was facisnating to me, one that I had previous experience with, and because I found it a lot more simple to tinker with than my cavalier ever was.
I don't really know what else to tell you, I would just save and try to get one on my own. You will appreciate it more in the long run, and you will also be less willing to take risks with it since it will be all your loss when you biff and destroy it.
11-14-04, 03:22 PM
#46
Mmmm Cheeze....
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Jeez, I am 20 have an 85 gs, it has 165000 miles on it, pulls strong, gets 20 mpg +/-, and I only pay $45 a month insurance. I figure I will give it a rebuild before the 200xxx point, but that is damn good for a 20 yo car. I just had it at the track, (only 1/8 mile) but still ran a 10.2 ar 70mph. I showed up a lot of cars, seeing as how it is a N/A.
11-16-04, 08:03 PM
#47
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I'm in the same position as Valkyrie. I live in Oklahoma which is possibly the most barren place to look for a decent deal on an FC and I finally found one that I have a chance to get. But my dad, now realizing that i'm extremely close to getting one has just stated that he's not helping me out at all. Thank god my mom supports my decision to get an FC. I mean Jesus christ I've been debating to myself wether or not to get one for months until I found this board and the vast knowledge available and immediately made up my mind about 2 months ago.
What pisses me off is that he doesn't support the one major decision I've ever made on my own, I've always been like "sure", "I guess", all my life, never really making up my mind on anything and now I am 100% trying to do something and hes against me! What surprises me is his reasons for not wanting me to get the car are the same exact ones Valkyrie's father's are. He even told me that I should get something thats the easiest to work on and he told me about his first car wich was a '60 somthing Chevy and that he could work on almost anything on it, I tried telling him how simple the rotary is but he wouldn't listen.
What pisses me off is that he doesn't support the one major decision I've ever made on my own, I've always been like "sure", "I guess", all my life, never really making up my mind on anything and now I am 100% trying to do something and hes against me! What surprises me is his reasons for not wanting me to get the car are the same exact ones Valkyrie's father's are. He even told me that I should get something thats the easiest to work on and he told me about his first car wich was a '60 somthing Chevy and that he could work on almost anything on it, I tried telling him how simple the rotary is but he wouldn't listen.
11-17-04, 10:40 AM
#49
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Gee, where did you get an idea like that? It's not like I would base what car I want on a cartoon show.
(Hachiroku da to?????)
Oh, and I think I decided that I'll probably just get a Corolla GT-S, for practicality reasons, and due to the fact that I'm a fan of the 86 as well as the FC. (And partially since I found one for $2500 online, whether or not it'll be for sale when I can actually buy a car is another story)
It doesn't really matter if I cant' smoke stupid Honda drivers and ricers on the freeway, since drag racing bores me anyway. As much as I'd like to.
(Hachiroku da to?????)
Oh, and I think I decided that I'll probably just get a Corolla GT-S, for practicality reasons, and due to the fact that I'm a fan of the 86 as well as the FC. (And partially since I found one for $2500 online, whether or not it'll be for sale when I can actually buy a car is another story)
It doesn't really matter if I cant' smoke stupid Honda drivers and ricers on the freeway, since drag racing bores me anyway. As much as I'd like to.
11-17-04, 08:26 PM
#50
Some people are quick to discount what they don't understand. Especially in that part of America, from what I'm told. Show him the "renesis module" then he will understand why rotary engines are good.
Link:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...6&page=3&pp=15
The AE86 is also a good chassis, go ahead and get the SR5 model, having less power will force you to learn to drive well. I used to own one, it was the epitome of economical and reliable yet still fun to drive. Get a plain-jane RWD Corolla and someday you can buy a more powerful car when you can afford it.
-s-
Link:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...6&page=3&pp=15
The AE86 is also a good chassis, go ahead and get the SR5 model, having less power will force you to learn to drive well. I used to own one, it was the epitome of economical and reliable yet still fun to drive. Get a plain-jane RWD Corolla and someday you can buy a more powerful car when you can afford it.
-s-