My dad thinks rotaries are crap: How to convince him otherwise?
 

My dad seems to have it in his head that rotaries are peices of crap, at least in terms of reliability.

He said they require specialists when it comes to maintenance and tune ups, etc.

I guess that's true when it comes to rebuilds, but what about basic repairs and diagnostics?

Other than a car that has one or two major problems once in a while (which seem to pretty much be one big one per individual car, from what I've read on the boards...), are there really any big problems for rotaries?

My parents are always saying that any car over 100,000 miles probably won't last much longer (at least without a serious overhaul or a rebuild), but both of their primary cars are way over 100,000 (one is over 175,000).

So how can I convince him that rotaries aren't the devil?

Not just so they'll help me buy one :D *cough*

Just because I like my parents to be well enformed. hehe.

first exaggerate the truth.
second lie about the exaggeration

Okay so from my expereince the rotary motor is decently relieable. But you might be want to have some mechanicial skills. If you know what you are doing then they are VERY relieble. Example, doinng the de-carbonizing helps greatly. You can add more coolant with a hot engine. Cheap parts for FC's. I would recommend you get a 88 up model because they had built in fuel cut off in the thr throttle. I have an 87 and i wish i had that. Makes unflooding much easier. But there are so many early 80's rx7's meaning they cant be crap can they? you dont see you many 79 buicks around do you?

I'm looking for an 89-91 TII. (*eyeballs that one with the torn seats in the classifieds area*)

My dad is good at maintaining cars since, well, he did all his own repairs and his 88 Toyota truck with 175,000 miles+ is still running perfectly.

I'm not mechanically inept, but I don't have much experience maintaning cars.

One time I did take apart a pump shotgun and put it together with no manual within 30 minutes... when I was maybe 12... heh.

I never thought it would have been that hard :P

FAQ's are youor friend. Now are you in Japan and getting a Japan version? RHD is sweet. Anywho, it really isnt hard to work on them.

I'd rather have an RHD, but I don't know if the J-Spec FC would be able to be imported and DOT legalized with the "sufficiently similar" clause.

I figure I could get one in good or repairable condition for less than $3,000...

Shipping to the states would probably be... ah, hell, I don't know. It changes from dealer to dealer.

And if an RI was required to modify it, God only knows how much that would cost.

Essentially, it would make finding a low-mileage S5 turbo (INIFNI!!!) easy, but it would make buying it a lot more expensive...

You should see the parts some of the Japanese companies have (I bought an RX-7 tuning book)...

Everything from new gear sets with different ratios to fiberglass racing doors (RE Amemiya website) to 100 different brands of replacement ECU...

6 speed racing transmission anyone?

I don't suppose you've tried converting the price from yen to dollars on those japanese parts you've seen, have you? That makes them suddenly look less exciting. You can buy plenty of good parts stateside, don't get caught up in the ricer 'JDM is cool' mentality.

N/a rotaries are pretty reliable, look for some FAQs. Also, if you can find old consumer reports, they give rx7's a pretty good rating.

However, your parents are right. Most cars over 100,000 don't have much life left in them (unless you have a toyota or maybe honda). Most all turbo rotaries are junk by 100K (especially FD's) Basically, a n/a FC is pretty cheap to own and maintain, and can be good, reliable cars. Like any used car, you just have to be very careful when buying one. Check it out thoroughly, VIN number, have a mechanic check it out, etc. If you are looking at an FD, you either have to be rich, or be a mechanic. Period.

Also, rotaries do have a wildly ineffecient combustion chamber design, get bad gas milage, and make horrible emissions. Oh, and they are loud as hell with free flowing exhausts, not to mention they smell bad. (rx8 excluded from all these points)

Would I trade my FD for any other car, HELL NO! (well....except maybe a ferrari :-)

How reliable is a properly rebuilt engine originally from a 100,000+ FC S5 Turbo II? Good for another 60,000 plus?...

*awaits laughter*

Or only 20,000 or so?


And yes, I know that all of those parts are expensive as hell. And they're cool because they're cool, not because they're JDM. I'm only interested in a JDM FC since I might have an easier time finding a turbo one with low mileage, seeing as how all Japanese FCs are turbo.

well if icemark was watching this he'd tell you that turbo rx7's s5 vs. can last from either 50k miles to 250k miles. its all about maint. of the car. it doesnt matter really if its a rotary or not. my t2 s4 had about 90k on it, but due to lack of maint. for injectors I fried my motor. These cars are great, and i do suggest getting a turbo 2 while you have a chance.

Rebuilds arent that much in the states here, could be between $500-1500 depending on weather its rebuilt urself or by a professional. I know 16 yr old kids that can rebuild these motors. People think there so complicated, but they confuse complication with not understanding how they work. they only have 3 moving parts compared to your conventional 4 piston motor wich has atleast 41 moving parts.

A rebuilt turbo 2 motor can get atleast 100,000 miles on it depending on mods, fuel management, and how u beat on it in its everday life. if you do get it rebuilt, dont boost at all until you have atleast 3k miles on it. then just boost away, ull have better gas mileage and better chances of not breaking your seals. If your dad doesnt like it, then to bad, cuz these cars are more fun than any other car i own.

I'm considering getting aftermarket temperature guages and improving the cooling system (new radiator, radiator plate, etc...).

Do electric fans actually improve cooling, or really even give back horsepower lost to the mechanically-linked fan?

I assume you mean at least 100,000 MORE miles :P

If so, then that makes me feel a lot better about rotaries.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the Mazda 13B since 1986 - this is when Mazda has figured out all the bugs to making the engines reliable.
It just comes down to common sense, and some rules of thumb for the 13B - redline the motor occasionally, never overheat, always use good oil and stick to a religious schedule of oil and oil filter changes, flush the cooling system.

With NA's, 200,000 miles is expected life expectancy.
With turbos it's slightly less due to the fact that a lot of them are making more power than stock - increase in power output will decrease engine life.
But, 100,000 miles out of a turbo 13B is not entirely out of the question.

Now, if Mazda will quit messing with the damn apex seal design...


-Ted

^^ya, maintanence plays a big role, however, mazda was far from working out the bugs in 1986, I would go so far to say that the rx8 renisis(an overhauled 13B) is still far from working the bugs out.

The only way to convince people that rotaries don't suck is, sack-punch them repeatedly until they like them... :bigthumb:

My dad asked a car dealer friend of his about the RX-7 (told him he was looking for an FC Turbo II), and the guy laughed at him.

Arg.

He said he hadn't seen one of them in years, and that they're peices of junk.

And that no one will work on rotaries.

Wtf.

I don't get why they're peices of junk if there's still so many of them running around.

And now my parents are demanding to know why I want this particular car. And as if they would help me buy one over the internet (ie, the only place to find one when you're in Alabama or are not incredible lucky).

So much hate for the 7 :P

So what was wrong with the 1986 engines?


-Ted

people that know absolutely nothing about a rotary, or how to work on them, will say they're junk. just get one and learn to work on it. ur dad will eventually come around, then u'll have something to teach him.

unfortuanetly, 'tis true and true. they are very rare in my area. quirky maintenance schedule kills them. regular people can barely keep up with a regular car's already lax maintenance schedule.

also, there are very few mechanics who know how to deal with this car. few rx7 owners take their cars to mechanics, and those few that do take them to rotary specialists.

a turbo II with over 100k probably won't last much longer without a rebuild.

that being said, they aren't as horrible as your dad makes them out to be. but it is going to take alot of research and some hands on work to maintain and repair the car if you get one.

oh, btw e-fan doesn't carry any inherent performance gain. primary reason ppl get them is to clear up space in the engine bay or b/c their stock mech fan died and froze.

the 'hp gain' from a mech fan -> efan mod happens when the viscous mech fan is frozen... so it comes on all the time instead of just when the engine is hot. remember... when you replace a mech fan with e-fan, the drain is switched from the crank to the alternator (which now has to put out a little more power to power the e-fan).

in other words, if its working fine theres no reason to replace it.

Well, since I'm rather new to the whole rotory thing, I guess I wouldn't heed my advice too thoroughly, although I do consider myself a very knowledgeable mechanic. For instance, I've been maintaining my '78 toyota celica for five years, it's finally dying now at 312,000 miles, I'm very proud of my baby.. <sniff> Anyway, on to the subject at hand: I've recently bought an '82 rx7 in not running condition, if you want, check it out in my garage to get an idea of what I had to do to get it running. Here's the thing though, I'll admit, the carb is a royal p.o.s. but it's not mazda's fault, it's old for cryin' out loud. I put a rebuild in the carb and ran seafoam through it for a while, and let me just say, this is the funnest car I have ever owned! This was the simplest engine I have ever worked on, and the most fun I've ever had doing so. For two months since I got it running I've done nothing but :D. By the way, I have the 12A with the fourbarrel carb, heh heh, my horse and torque spec's are as proceeds: 101 horses@6000r's, and 105 ft.lbs.@6000r's, heh heh, you guys' with the 13b's got a 4600r's torque peak! So here's what I've been building up to man, my rx7 had over 163,000 miles on it when I bought it, I've put over ohh, 700 miles on it, most of that with my foot to the floor, and I have not had a single issue with it. One more thing, sorry, I know I'm long winded, it takes me a maximum of three to four seconds to reach oh, around 40, at what point I decide to throw it into second gear. That's 10K man, I'd like to see somebody beat that with a piston driven crankshaft thrower:D. Without spending 10 grand anyway, heheheheh.

I guess I'll address the electric fan issue as well. A clutch fan requires about 6-7 horses to turn, assuming it's in good condition. Naturally, if you're not really worried about a few horsepower, than there's no need to just up and replace it with an electric, even if it's gone bad(electric fans do require some work to put in, relay switches and whatnot). But, if you need some extra's, yes do put in a electric. First reason: They only run when the engine reaches it's peak temperature, and it'll only run for a minute or two. Second reason: The horsepower difference from the alternator is negligable. A high-end alternator will restrict no more then two horsepower with an electric fan. That's 5 horses difference, or as much as 15 if the clutch fan's bad ;). As I'm sure you may have noticed, with the public's oncoming obssession with horsepower and gas mileage, virtually all new cars come with electric fans. Oh yeah, it will also help out with the mileage too, if only a couple mpg.

personally, my dad was like that too. luckily all it took was giving him the keys for a day + some major over exaggeration of the truth. i learned how to do all the work on the car by myself so i became the specialist -of sort. he is in love now.

my parents were both the same way.... I just kept at it and after a while the realized that this was the only kind of car I wanted and they couldn't convince me different, so they just gave in. I bought an S5 TII with an engine with only a couple thousand miles on it... that's the way to go. I don't have to worry about it at all for a long time :)

-Myk

I owned a 88 for ten years, had 170,000 miles when I traded it for a 93 and it never gave me problems. I drove from Germany to Spain at an average of 90 mph and it didn't miss a beat. Just gave it regular maintenence and the only thing I had to replace in those ten years was a starter and a clutch. Was still running strong when I sold it.

A rotary is very special and I am convinced through my 17 years of owning them, that they are virtually bullet-proof IF you do the regular maintenance. That means only SLIGHTLY more than a piston-engined car. The technical elegance of these cars can only be appreciated by those who own them and drive them. I largely gave up trying to convince "piston-heads" that my car was vastly superior, but they do pay attention once they drive one. ;)

I think that eventually an owner becomes very connected mechanically with the car, and ends up doing the maintenance themselves. On the occasion I am stumped (which has only happened a couple of times), I take it to a dealer that has a mechanic who did the RX-7 training in the 1980s and 1990s. These guys love to work on a '7 when one comes in... :)

I used to have an old '87 T-II with 186,000 miles on the original engine. There were no upgrades to the car. It was bone stock but it did get ragged on pretty hard. Replaced the tranny and clutch a few times but the engine just kept going. It did get regular maintanence.

that's pretty amazing rotarygod... were u the sole owner?

your dad is right. Rotary is crap.