MRGSL-SE

My injectors are leaking and replaced both injectors with a 550cc off of a 2nd gen injector. The car would rev to 3,000 rpm and when it gets below 1,500 rpm it would sparter and would die if I didn't press the gas pedal. Then after 7 mins of running I checked the engine and I saw traces of smoke coming from the fuel rail. How can I make those injectors work.... or should I buy 680cc injectors again?

Cosmo Donk

They should work just fine if you make sure they are the same resistance as the 680's.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

its gonna be a little lean all the way around

mike

MRGSL-SE

Yeah, I checked the resistance and it was 2.5 ohms for the 550cc and about 2.3-2.5 ohms for the 680cc. I got the 680cc cleaned and put them back in and I took a 15 mile drive and smoke was coming from the engine when I finally parked. I think my oil metering connecting rod gets stuck and the temperature gauge reads half way C and H, but it's just smoking after I parked. I don't have a clue if I'm burning coolant or oil or if I'm overheating, I'm pretty sure I intall the injectors correctly, but around the exhaust manifold its just smoking. I don't have a clue...help...

I took the injectors for cleaning close to my house today which I regret, I should have gone to RC engineering which is 34.2 miles away from me and the place I went to was about 7 miles from me, but I was totally disatisfied with the service and they charged about the same as RC without any computer analysis and all that, the old guy that serviced my injectors thought that it wasn't working at first, when the boss did it, my injectors were clicking good, the old man's excuse was it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. If you live in the Southern California region a place called

"Woodman Carburetor & Fuel Injection, Inc."
8933 Woodman Ave. Arleta, CA 91331,

Arleta is around North Hollywood, Panorama City Area, don't go there, because if you don't speak Armenian then don't count on having a good communication with the Technicians there. This place was so horrible with there service that when I get around again, a little drive to RC engineering in torrance, CA is worth more than that place will ever be.

LongDuck

Is your engine smoke a lot or a little? Does it smell sweet, or is it acrid and sharp?

I noticed that when I changed injectors recently on my 84SE that the thermowax heater hose going to the fuel injection housing drained some coolant down the side of the engine and directly into the exhaust manifold housing. This is not evident, however, since the heat shields are in place. In any event, on startup, the smoke coming from this area was sweet-smelling and definitely coolant burning off of the exhaust as it warmed up. Nothing really to worry about, just evaporation of the coolant that drained down into the manifold heat shields.

If the smoke is acrid smelling, get some fresh air - this may be oil burning from below the exhaust manifold or wiring, which will be an electrical smell (hard to describe) - and very unlikely to be wiring.

I'm troubleshooting my own 680cc Injector issues on a separate thread (in 1st Gen specific), but your note caught my attention. Good lucking getting those 550's running. Did you get them at a good price, at least?

MRGSL-SE

yeah, that's what I thought too, but the problem hasn't gone away, it looks like i'm overheating or something. The exhaust manifold seems to have traces of coolant. The water pump assembly was really hot and the alternator was too. I try not to drive it hard, but it smell like sweet and like it doesn't smell oily, but a smell that you mentioned described it best, not the acid, but the sweet one. I don't know how to fix it, and it doesn't seem to be going away.
I thought I installed my injectors wrong, because i could see more traces of fuel. Is the big O-ring suppose to go in the slot all the way in. cuz I try my best to get it in there. I'm gonna check it tomorrow or this weekend. Thanks for the replys I really appreaciate it.

Marques

LongDuck

Sounds to me like you've got a coolant leak from one of the thermowax hoses going from either the back of the water pump to the left side of the EGI manifold (looking from the passenger side), or from the engine block to the underside of the EGI system. Either of these, if they get a pinhole leak, will spew coolant all over the intake manifold, which will leak down to the exhaust manifold and cause a steamy smoke, which will smell sweet. This is just coolant boiling off, but you'll be losing coolant whenever the car is running.

These hoses supply hot (or cold, when cold) water to the thermowax bulb that determines how long the 'choke' is operating when starting in cold conditions. Once the coolant water heats up, it melts the thermowax pellet and allows the choke to disengage, is my understanding. These hoses route the water to the thermowax chamber and carry pressurized water just like your radiator hoses. A small leak here will be evident when the engine is hot.

If nothing else, you should get these fixed so that you can tell if your injectors are leaking gas in that same area. Autozone has the hoses for these, as they have some funny bends in them. They won't list one for your car, but if you take the bad one in, and have the guy look on the hanging rack, he will have one that fits - I think it's for an American car of some sort, but fit perfectly on my EGI manifold. The one to the back of the water pump you can use standard heater hose, cut to fit.

On the injector seals, if you place the nozzle downward, you'll see that there is a big, flat, rubber seal that goes into the air bleed hole to seal the lower part of the injector nozzle against the intermediate housing. At the top of the injector, you have the H-shaped rubber seal which presses down against the orange plastic top, and this seals the injector against the fuel rail. Above this, there is a groove in the metal injector feed which has an O-ring mounted in the groove. Remove any hardened seals, and replace them with new seals (available at PEP Boys, made by Borg-Warner, $7.99 per kit). The O-ring can be tough to get off, but you can cut the old one off and then roll the new one into place.

This fixed my sealing problem for about $18, but the rebuilt injector seems to be bad. Oh, well - let me know if this makes sense to you. Trying to help out,

MRGSL-SE

I checked those hoses before they seem ok on normal temp, but I'll check again on warmed up condition, but I removed the RE-EGI intake today and looked around to see any mis half. If your car is sort of stock still, right underneath the metering oil pump rod or underneath the water thermo sensor, these sort of orange looking really skinny hoses 4 of them, 2 of them connects to the lower part of the intake manifold just above the ACV and the other two goes somewhere else and all four go down to the front of the engine. 2 of them are broken and I tagged which one broke off from which.

It was really hard to remove the one that broke and I took it to Auto Zone and the guy said that he has some white skinny fuel lines that look like it and may work. I wanted to wait until I get some advise from you LongDuck, because I don't know what those are and at first when I got the car those where the first things I noticed that looked delicate. All my seals and filter on the injectors are new after the clean up at that place. Your making sense, I could kinda picture what your talking about and really appreaciate your advice to another GSL-SE fannatic.

Marques

LongDuck

The orange lines that you're talking about (4 of them) that go from the intake manifold (lower) housing to the front of the engine, down below the water pump, are the oil feed hoses that inject oil into the intake to lubricate the apex seals. This is the only way to get oil to the apex's is to squirt it into the intake when the engine runs. This is why Mazda states that oil consumption may be high, but it's not due to internal engine problems - it's because they're squirting engine oil into the intake to help lube the engine, and that gets burned up and lost out the exhaust.

The 4 lines that you speak of are specifically for carrying oil from the oil pump attached to the engine front cover, to the 4 inputs on the intake manifold (lower). If you notice, these have a banjo fitting that looks kinda like this (0)=== that allows the oil to flow into the hollow ports. The oil doesn't actually 'squirt' out of here, it's more like a vacuum draw, as there's not that much oil going down the intake, even at full throttle.

Additionally, if you notice on the right side of your RE-EGI throttle linkage, there is a cotter pin that holds on a gold colored rod about 3-4mm in diameter that is bent kind of funny and goes down the engine front cover behind the alternator and water pump. This is the oil metering pump linkage, and you rotate the throttle rod, this linkage moves a lever on the front of the oil metering pump (on the front cover) and increases oil flow through these lines.

Having these 4 oil injectors working is VERY IMPORTANT to ensuring that your engine will run reliably and have lubricated apex seals. If 2 of them are broken, you may be able to get some heat-shrink tubing or rubber tubing and splice the broken ends back together, at least as a short term fix. In the long run, I would recommend calling Mazdatrix or your local dealer and getting them to order you some new lines. They are held on by rubber hoses at both the oil injector fittings (0)=== and at the front of the oil metering pump, so these are not high-pressure lines.

Also, as a aside, the smoke that you may be seeing from your exhaust system at the engine bay may actually be engine oil leaking down onto the exhaust heat shields, since these oil injection lines will eventually gum up the top of the intake manifold and leak down further to the exhaust manifold. This may be the cause of the smoke that you described, but it will be white smoke and smell like burning oil. Not sweet, which is coolant.

In any case, once you get these fixed, and check again for coolant leaks going to the thermowax chamber, you should be able to clean up the coolant/oil/fuel mess under the top intake manifold and then you'll know what's really leaking in there (whew!).

Let me know if this doesn't make sense and I'll explain further. The Haynes and Mazda shop manual tell you how to check the oil metering pump for volume flowing to these oil injectors - I can't recall the volume right now, but it isn't much. Still, you want these working to ensure that your engine is getting enough lube to the apex seals.

MRGSL-SE

Its white smoke, I do get dizzy if I smell it too long. But I see coolant traces on the exhaust manifold. I'll try solving this problem this weekend, I'll go check the junkyard for some oil injector lines off a 2nd gen if it has it.

Theirs a white fuel line hose in Auto Zone for $4.99 and they seem a like, would this work? The ends are held by a tie wrap and seems to be the same size.

I checked Mazdatrix and each line cost about $23. I guess my inexperience in smelling car exhaust led me the wrong way, but thanks for knowing everything L D.

Those Tomco fuel injectors that I mentioned in the other tread, would they work just fine on my GSL-SE. The guy at the shop tried to sell them for $50 at first, then he lowered it to $40 each, their black injectors and has a label with white background and green lettering that says TOMCO, besides theirs a racing performance store nearby too, Top Racing Performance, and another shop called Top End Performance, I'll go check those place out too.

L.D. I bought a Magnecor R100 10mm spark plug wires for the GSL-SE for $100 was that a good deal? The Top Racing Performance store tried to get me Vitek wires or Nology wires for the GSL-SE at first, was it good that I ended up with the Magnecor? I'm thinking of getting the Bonez exhaust, would you recommend that? I know you want to get the Racing Beat one. I need to pass CA emission test.

I'm sorry I'm asking a lot of question, you're the only person that has answered my questions that I've searched for more than months for the answers.

Thanks a million

Marques

LongDuck

Dizzying smoke (for lack of a better term) might be oil, but hard to say. If it makes your eyes tear up, it might be coolant smoke.

Autozone lines might work just fine - the oil injector lines aren't high pressure so just about anything including McDonald's straws linked together would probably work for this application. The biggest thing is that you don't want them to leak getting to the nozzle - any leaks will prevent the oil from getting into the intake and lubing your apex seals. Also, 2nd gen oil lines may not be exactly the same, since I doubt that they use 4 oil injectors like the SE's do. You may not have much luck finding the right ones unless you happen upon another SE in the junkyard.

The Tomco's, if they're the right diameter and flow rate (680cc for SE), then they should work for your car. If the guys are willing to come down on price on them, could be that they've been in stock for awhile and they don't have any customers interested in them. Doublecheck the application chart and give them a shot, if you want. If it were me, I'd buy them and try them out, but I don't mind taking my intake system apart another time (will have to when my replacement injector comes in, maybe today...).

Not familiar with the Magnecor R100 wires, but if their 10mm silicon, they should be fine. I'm running the BAP Bosch 8mm wires and have no problems with any crosstalk and my wires are touching in places, even with proper looms. I think that until you get into direct fire ignition, the wires don't make that much difference because they're not carrying that much current. Biggest benefit to silicone is their durability under the hood, and temps out here in AZ get HOT. Worth the money for silicone wires.

I'm also not familiar with the BONEZ exhaust, but have run a 12a Racing Beat header in my SCCA 80LS. Actually, I had the JC Whitney special header installed first, but burned a hole through the lead in pipe within 2 months. Sounded like holy hell, too (quoted from a friend of mine). Once I put the money down for the RB header, got more power, better sound, and durability to match. RB used much heavier steel tubing than the JC specials. CA is going to be pretty limiting for what you can do to your car.

I don't mind the questions, but I don't know much about the high performance mods that people do. I'm keeping my SE running in basically stock form because it's such a fun street car to drive, plus I'm familar with the engine and handling due to SCCA racing in the 80LS. I know the stock systems like the back of my hand, tho, which helps for troubleshooting.

Talk to you later,

MRGSL-SE

Update

Went to the junkyard and took off some injector lines off of a 89 Se 2nd Gen. The connections to the oil injectors were broken, at first I thought that didn't matter as long as the line was still long enough.

I got home and took off the broken ones off and I found out that the original lines would not stretch to the openning of the connecting rod. I heated it and tried forcing it to open, no luck.

Went to Auto Zone and the fuel line was too small. The guy suggested a rubber tubing that was small enough, but big enough to fit. I found one that fit perfectly, so I purchased 3 foot of it, got back working on the car and made sure color code the lines with a tie wrap. L D since you said anything would work with this application. I replace the two broken ones and left two original ones. The installation went without a hitch.

Then I took off the injector and inspected the way it was installed and cleaned the mess. I installed it injector first in the slot then the fuel rail was attached. Put everything back together. When I started it hesitated at first, then boom she started, lots of White smoke was coming out the exhaust and for a minute the car was reving at 3,000 rpm and wouldn't drop until I noticed I forgot to plug the vacuum hose that led to the BCAV, then she came right back down to 1000 rpm and began to idle. I let the car ran for 5 minutes while I was cleaning up. Then I drove her around the block one time. Inspected if there was smoke, unfortunately I saw traces of smoke coming from the fuel damper side, but no evident sign of smoke coming from the fuel regulator side. I shut her off and saw some smoke, but not like before. I checked the oil L {} |||||||||| F The bracket was the oil level, I added 1 quart of 10w30 and another quart of 10w40 oil.

I don't know if its smoking due to lack of oil L D, but I know I'm gonna check in a couple of weeks whats under the intake manifold again. Total time, 3:30pm until 6:30 pm Saturday. When I save enough again, I'm gonna get those TOMCO rotating disk injectors, currently trying to get the Bonez exhaust. By the way what SCCA 80LS?

Marques

LongDuck

Sounds like you got your oil leak fixed, but if you're still getting smoke from here, I'd check it out to be sure one of the fuel lines or the pulsation damper isn't leaking fuel.

You can do this without removing the intake manifold (upper), but looking down at the left side of the intake tubes and looking at the low spots on the manifold - any fuel leaks from the injectors or fuel lines will pool fuel in these depressions and you can stick your finger in it and smell to be sure. If it's fuel - be very careful driving it. I wouldn't actually, and that's why I've been posting about fuel injector leaks and such.

It's worth it to figure out a fuel leak correctly, so you don't risk an engine fire.

On the SCCA racing front, I used to run my 1980 LS RX7 in Competition Street Prepared class in the local club events. This is where I learned to drive, and also the source of many of my aftermarket modifications that have gone onto my 84SE - after the 12a in my 80 blew at 207k mi. The suspension components swapped right over, with the exception of the front strut inserts, which I will need to replace.

In all, SCCA is a great group to learn about suspension workings and driver technique that translates directly to the street (driving, not racing). If there is a local club around that you can go to a few meets, I'd recommend it - chances of finding another RX7 out there are very high and one of my neighbors runs a Pro7 car in SCCA nationals competition.

Let me know how the injector swap turns out. Take care,

MRGSL-SE

L D

Drove my GSL-SE 15 miles this morning, popped the hood opened, at my surprise no smoke at first. Then I waited about 30 seconds and popped the hood again, small traces of smoke, before the smoke would make my car look like its overheated, but this was a big improvement.

I do remember that before when I tested those 550cc fuel injectors off of a second gen, I saw smoke for the first time. Before I even touched the injectors or remove the intake manifold there wasn't any smoke. Is it possible that hot gases are escaping from somewhere?

Does the SCCA have a web that shows all their chapters? They taught you really well...

thanks

marques

LongDuck

You'll have to check out the SCCA website through a search. They can teach good driving technique, but for mechanics, you'll have to learn by doing, as many of us here have learned!

Good job on resolving your issue, sounds like it's mostly fixed (except for the small amount of smoke...).

MRGSL-SE

L D the remaining smoke was just burning off the last remains of oil from where it smoked. Theirs still some smoke, but its very faint now. I've checked my gas per gallon and it was about 17 mpg and most of that was on the freeway.

L D you said you got your fuel injectors sent to Marren injector place, when do you get it back? When you do install them back in tell me how it performs...

I think I wasted $50 getting my injectors cleaned... I'll probably get a RC engineering injectors later on, but if you have a suggestion why I should pick the TOMCO over RC engineering injectors...

Thank you for being there for info.

Marques

LongDuck

I don't know anything specific about the TOMCO's vs. factory injectors except that they're aftermarket and for $40, you can't go wrong. When the dealer wants $277 for a factory new injector, and BAP has rebulit for $52 plus core charge, that's not a bad deal.

With all the injector issues I've been working through these past few weeks, I figured having some 'known good' injectors wouldn't hurt to swap in and try out, especially at that low price.

I haven't sent off my 'cores' from the injector swap, yet, but plan to send them out to INJECTOR.COM to have them rebuilt, flow balanced, leak tested, and cleaned - I think he charges about $24 per injector, and then I'll know that they're balanced to each other and will run best in my engine.

The problem with swapping injectors out from BAP and other places, including the older one still in there, is that they're not operating at the same flow rate, which causes one rotor to develop more or less power than the other, which can lead to excessive wear on stationary gears and other components like apex seals and side seals.

I want to get my car running top notch so I don't have to worry about wear issues - especially with 162k original mi on this engine. A little bit of maintenance goes a long way, HTH,

Halfbreed

Whats up guys? I just ran quickly through this thread and am really impressed with the troubleshooting! Marques sounds like hes learning fast and L D is a regular whiz. anyway I am on this thread because a friend of a friend of mine recently sent his SE out to have a motor installed. The car is missing and back firing, running like %#$%@ essentially. My friend has run about every electrical and other tests with no results... However, he noticed when he pulled the injectors that they are blue---aren't the stock SE injectors color coded orange? We are trying to verify. We are wondering if some *** decided to swipe the desirable 680's for some others and hoped the owner wouldn't know. Thanks for any info regarding these puppies.

MRGSL-SE

Yeah the GSL-SE stock fuel injectors have orange heads. Check if the blue injectors that was pulled out is a NIPPON DENSO type injectors. They might have swiped the originals since lots of people want them for their 680cc output.

I've been checking around for good injectors (L D the TOMCO rotating disk injectors are high impedement injectors and the resistance does't match for the GSL-SE) GREDDY has a 660cc that have blue heads, so that might be a possibility and Greddy's are Nippon Denso type injectors.

Another possibility for the symptoms could be ignition timing, Air Flow meter is no good(Just my guess). But your gonna have to consult with L D.

Halfbreed

Good hedz up, we thought the were orange. we gotta look into getting some injectors now. My buddy wants to experiment using my SE injectors to see if the other will run with them. My question: can my injectors be damaged in doing this, aside from physical abuse. I DONT want to loose mine.

Ps. I just ran my bro's 125shifty kart today. . . Holy*&$%##@ is that a rush, I might sell my SE. Well let me think on this.

LongDuck

You might want to open up a new thread for this issue, as I'm not sure all of the troubleshooting relates to the blue-head injectors that you've described.

For both of my injectors, they are orange in color on the plastic top cover. There is no damage in using your injectors in his engine, but be very careful when moving and installing them, as usually the Bakelite nozzle covers are brittle over time and can crack which will require you to replace the injector. Those caps do not come off easily, and I wouldn't trust an aftermarket 'pop-in' nozzle - better to know that you're getting good quality, so just be careful.

Also, the injector impedence is what will determine whether they will work correctly in his car - there are high and low impedence injectors, and this refers to the amount of electrical current required to open the injector to allow fuel to pass. The 84/85 GSL-SE's use low-impedence injectors, and should be replaced with same. The 680cc stock injectors are good up to about 400hp, IIRC from the 'How to Modify your RX7' book - not much you need to change to go up in flow, and no point in going down, as MRGSLSE can attest. HTH,