Housing pic- Ra super seals 20psi 25,000 miles
11-01-12, 09:31 AM
#26
as far as i can tell the gouging starts right from the beginning and will only get worse through mileage. so you either start clawing the motor up on first fire or it will be fine. i still assume this mainly has to do with housing prep and seal material.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-01-12 at 09:35 AM.
11-01-12, 11:18 AM
#28
Manny- I am gona take a stabe at it, though I have no personal experience with ceramics just what I have read. The ceramic seal in an N/a application is awesome, will last and has the least wear will take high rpm abuse. The 1 pc seals must be properly clearanced.
Now in a turbo application they will work well too but the tune better be spot on, no mistakes, as they will not take detenation/knock. If they shatter they will trash rotors and housings worse than any other seal, so your out a $900 worth of seals,a $750rotor and $900 housing.
This is what I recall from my research.
11-01-12, 11:52 AM
#29
Senior Member
[QUOTE=RotaryEvolution;11272367].... keep in mind the OMP system takes about that amount of time (~500 miles) to fill on a rebuilt engine with drained OMP system. QUOTE]
i would have never thought about that. thanx
sounds like i'll open fully the OMP during break-in to speed the filling.
i would have never thought about that. thanx
sounds like i'll open fully the OMP during break-in to speed the filling.
Last edited by Clubuser; 11-01-12 at 11:55 AM.
11-01-12, 12:03 PM
#30
[QUOTE=Clubuser;11273467]
reminds me, i need to add that footnote to my engine install instruction sheet.
ceramics disperse heat and are a better insulator than any other type of seal. they will be the least prone to wear and gouging the seal or wear surfaces in the engine. ideally when running ceramics a brand new housing should be used though, versus even resurfaced housings. due to the cost of the seals i wouldn't take any chance of the seals taking any possible wear from a rougher surface even though you have to cut the seals with diamond bits since they are THAT hard.
any type of single piece seal will always result in lower cranking and low speed compression until the engine is warmed up, 2 piece ceramics would be better but almost no aftermarket company makes them in 2 pieces. the seals should be trimmed to fit your particular engine width(rotor housing narrowest point thickness when cold -.005").
ceramics are ideal for naturally aspirated engines but i do not recommend them so much for turbo rotaries. simply because they have less tensile and shear strength than the OEM cast iron seals. that said, even the best ceramic will shatter with less detonation than even an OEM cast iron seal. and when a ceramic seal breaks it takes virtually everything in the affected chamber with it(rotor, rotor housing, side seals, corner seals and both irons). they are great for endurance n/a engines because they will virtually last you the life of the engine as well as keep the rotor housings pristine.
take a carbon seal and multiply it by X1000 and you have ceramic.
ceramics disperse heat and are a better insulator than any other type of seal. they will be the least prone to wear and gouging the seal or wear surfaces in the engine. ideally when running ceramics a brand new housing should be used though, versus even resurfaced housings. due to the cost of the seals i wouldn't take any chance of the seals taking any possible wear from a rougher surface even though you have to cut the seals with diamond bits since they are THAT hard.
any type of single piece seal will always result in lower cranking and low speed compression until the engine is warmed up, 2 piece ceramics would be better but almost no aftermarket company makes them in 2 pieces. the seals should be trimmed to fit your particular engine width(rotor housing narrowest point thickness when cold -.005").
ceramics are ideal for naturally aspirated engines but i do not recommend them so much for turbo rotaries. simply because they have less tensile and shear strength than the OEM cast iron seals. that said, even the best ceramic will shatter with less detonation than even an OEM cast iron seal. and when a ceramic seal breaks it takes virtually everything in the affected chamber with it(rotor, rotor housing, side seals, corner seals and both irons). they are great for endurance n/a engines because they will virtually last you the life of the engine as well as keep the rotor housings pristine.
take a carbon seal and multiply it by X1000 and you have ceramic.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-01-12 at 12:13 PM.
11-01-12, 02:30 PM
#31
depends on what you mean by proper. the engine i pulled apart with the chewed up atkins seals i built 1500 miles prior, previous to that i had never seen that problem before, through hundreds of rebuilds. we switched apex seals the next go around with a softer seal, premixed more heavily and switched premix lubricants, have not had enough time to see conclusive results if it happened again but i doubt it. the owner sais the car feels different/better so i am assuming the problem is cured and won't come back.
as far as i can tell the gouging starts right from the beginning and will only get worse through mileage. so you either start clawing the motor up on first fire or it will be fine. i still assume this mainly has to do with housing prep and seal material.
as far as i can tell the gouging starts right from the beginning and will only get worse through mileage. so you either start clawing the motor up on first fire or it will be fine. i still assume this mainly has to do with housing prep and seal material.
11-01-12, 04:55 PM
#35
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Rotary Evolution, did you get my PM?
I also only got 1,250 miles out of my Atkins seals. I can't blame it on the seals as I never verified the tune before "getting on it" at the drag races.
Well that was good to know about the OMP not filling up until 500 miles. I had wondered why the tubes stayed clear for so long after the rebuild and tube replacement. Wondering if injecting some oil in the tubes would assist that lapse of time. I also never premixed. Oops!
I also only got 1,250 miles out of my Atkins seals. I can't blame it on the seals as I never verified the tune before "getting on it" at the drag races.
Well that was good to know about the OMP not filling up until 500 miles. I had wondered why the tubes stayed clear for so long after the rebuild and tube replacement. Wondering if injecting some oil in the tubes would assist that lapse of time. I also never premixed. Oops!
11-01-12, 06:11 PM
#36
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
They sell Quicksilver (Premix) there that is considered pretty damned good stuff in the marine 2-stroke world.
If you can't stock Idemitsu at home than I'd suggest swinging in there and just getting some quicksilver.
11-02-12, 06:19 AM
#38
Not too long ago, walmart switched the 2 stroke brand from Penzoil to "super Tech", well at least their 8oz and 16oz bottles (which I love, because its one 16oz bottle per full tank of gas)
There is a West Marine right off 495, on Route 1 (North), in Old Town. It's on the left at literally the first light you come to as you get off the highway.
They sell Quicksilver (Premix) there that is considered pretty damned good stuff in the marine 2-stroke world.
If you can't stock Idemitsu at home than I'd suggest swinging in there and just getting some quicksilver.
They sell Quicksilver (Premix) there that is considered pretty damned good stuff in the marine 2-stroke world.
If you can't stock Idemitsu at home than I'd suggest swinging in there and just getting some quicksilver.
Good to know
11-03-12, 03:01 PM
#41
Old [Sch|F]ool
11-13-12, 08:57 PM
#42
Ok so I broke one of the "unbreakable" seals. Pic included.
I had the line that runs to the intake manifold that pressurizes the injectors pop off under full boost(1.35 bar) at about 130MPH in 4th gear. Detonation was audible, didn't need a knock sensor. It dented the rotor face very bad, broke a solid corner seal and broke an RA-super seal. It also caused the tips to hit the housings damaging the housing. All of this happened on the front rotor. What is interesting is that the rear rotor also shows signs of all three rotor tips hitting the housing destroying it as well. This engine is now trashed.
Kinda weird that I re-used 5 seals from the previous build and used 1 new one. The new one is the one at broke...
Pic 1 dented rotor
Pic 2 Broken super seal
Pic 3 broken corner seal and super seal
I had the line that runs to the intake manifold that pressurizes the injectors pop off under full boost(1.35 bar) at about 130MPH in 4th gear. Detonation was audible, didn't need a knock sensor. It dented the rotor face very bad, broke a solid corner seal and broke an RA-super seal. It also caused the tips to hit the housings damaging the housing. All of this happened on the front rotor. What is interesting is that the rear rotor also shows signs of all three rotor tips hitting the housing destroying it as well. This engine is now trashed.
Kinda weird that I re-used 5 seals from the previous build and used 1 new one. The new one is the one at broke...
Pic 1 dented rotor
Pic 2 Broken super seal
Pic 3 broken corner seal and super seal
11-13-12, 09:07 PM
#43
Continued pics of the housing damage and the rotor tips that contacted the housings.
Pic 4- Front Housing to rotor contact- this chamber had the broken seal
Pic 5- Front housing more contact- pic doesn't show it well but the rotor made contact here too.
Pic 6- Front Rotor with Dent(again) and marks on rotor tip hitting housing
Pic 4- Front Housing to rotor contact- this chamber had the broken seal
Pic 5- Front housing more contact- pic doesn't show it well but the rotor made contact here too.
Pic 6- Front Rotor with Dent(again) and marks on rotor tip hitting housing
11-13-12, 09:26 PM
#44
And the rear rotor. Now this rotor had NO BROKEN seal, but had the claw marks which were caused by the rotor tips hitting the housing. Every single rotor tip in the rear housing had contact damage.
Pic 7- Rear housing and scratches
Pic8- Rear rotor a contact marks
Pi9- rear rotor a different tip and its contact mark
i didn't take a pic of the 3rd rotor tip, but it looks just like the other two.
So the claw marks in this case were not caused by the Apex seal. Caused by Rotor tips hitting the housing.
Moral to the story, be sure all your lines are secured... If they pop off at a bad time, Destruction.
Pic 7- Rear housing and scratches
Pic8- Rear rotor a contact marks
Pi9- rear rotor a different tip and its contact mark
i didn't take a pic of the 3rd rotor tip, but it looks just like the other two.
So the claw marks in this case were not caused by the Apex seal. Caused by Rotor tips hitting the housing.
Moral to the story, be sure all your lines are secured... If they pop off at a bad time, Destruction.
11-13-12, 10:48 PM
#46
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
OUCH. That is some serious carnage. Re: the line that came loose, was the vacuum hose oversized, or was it not zip tied?
Bad things can happen in a hurry at that boost level and load/gear.
Bad things can happen in a hurry at that boost level and load/gear.
11-14-12, 06:12 AM
#47
Ok so I broke one of the "unbreakable" seals. Pic included.
I had the line that runs to the intake manifold that pressurizes the injectors pop off under full boost(1.35 bar) at about 130MPH in 4th gear. Detonation was audible, didn't need a knock sensor. It dented the rotor face very bad, broke a solid corner seal and broke an RA-super seal. It also caused the tips to hit the housings damaging the housing. All of this happened on the front rotor. What is interesting is that the rear rotor also shows signs of all three rotor tips hitting the housing destroying it as well. This engine is now trashed.
Kinda weird that I re-used 5 seals from the previous build and used 1 new one. The new one is the one at broke...
Pic 1 dented rotor
Pic 2 Broken super seal
Pic 3 broken corner seal and super seal
I had the line that runs to the intake manifold that pressurizes the injectors pop off under full boost(1.35 bar) at about 130MPH in 4th gear. Detonation was audible, didn't need a knock sensor. It dented the rotor face very bad, broke a solid corner seal and broke an RA-super seal. It also caused the tips to hit the housings damaging the housing. All of this happened on the front rotor. What is interesting is that the rear rotor also shows signs of all three rotor tips hitting the housing destroying it as well. This engine is now trashed.
Kinda weird that I re-used 5 seals from the previous build and used 1 new one. The new one is the one at broke...
Pic 1 dented rotor
Pic 2 Broken super seal
Pic 3 broken corner seal and super seal
OUCH, sorry to hear about your misfortune
11-14-12, 07:41 AM
#48
My manifold cracked I had removed it and rewelded it. When I re-installed it I failed to tighten the worm gear clamp that holds the line on. I have an aluminum tube welded on the Ic piping about 6 inches from the turbo, its the right size, I just messed up. Kicking my self in the ***.
11-14-12, 12:20 PM
#49
so in short the rotors didn't drag across the whole inside of the rotor housing, but i'm seeing that wear occurring again on that one particular rotor. why it only happened on one rotor and not the other i cannot say. my only guess is the prep work in cleaning up the one housing was better than the other, these seals require a rather smooth surface. ie resurfaced or scratched up housings need either more attention or more premix for the first hundred miles or so, maybe both. Goopy seals are coated for break in, and probably why i haven't seen them cause clawing of resurfaced housings and why they build exceptional compression right out of the gate. what they are coated with i do not know, i have never asked Jon, but it is a rather soft material like lead. the soft material coating i suspect fills the sealing gaps on the resurfaced housings preventing the clawing to occur.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-14-12 at 12:31 PM.
11-15-12, 08:07 AM
#50
rotor tips were perfect, in fact it looks like your rotors weren't the cause of it happening again. the rotors only contact the rotor housings at the trochoid surface inside the housings(the camel hump) in almost all failures of your type i have come across.
so in short the rotors didn't drag across the whole inside of the rotor housing, but i'm seeing that wear occurring again on that one particular rotor. why it only happened on one rotor and not the other i cannot say. my only guess is the prep work in cleaning up the one housing was better than the other, these seals require a rather smooth surface. ie resurfaced or scratched up housings need either more attention or more premix for the first hundred miles or so, maybe both. Goopy seals are coated for break in, and probably why i haven't seen them cause clawing of resurfaced housings and why they build exceptional compression right out of the gate. what they are coated with i do not know, i have never asked Jon, but it is a rather soft material like lead. the soft material coating i suspect fills the sealing gaps on the resurfaced housings preventing the clawing to occur.
so in short the rotors didn't drag across the whole inside of the rotor housing, but i'm seeing that wear occurring again on that one particular rotor. why it only happened on one rotor and not the other i cannot say. my only guess is the prep work in cleaning up the one housing was better than the other, these seals require a rather smooth surface. ie resurfaced or scratched up housings need either more attention or more premix for the first hundred miles or so, maybe both. Goopy seals are coated for break in, and probably why i haven't seen them cause clawing of resurfaced housings and why they build exceptional compression right out of the gate. what they are coated with i do not know, i have never asked Jon, but it is a rather soft material like lead. the soft material coating i suspect fills the sealing gaps on the resurfaced housings preventing the clawing to occur.
What ever the case time to get a new core and go from here.