fastassturbo2

iTrader: (9)

OK
so my thread is probably more or less a repeat of the past few threads, but not ncessarily so. I had a discussion with Howard this evening and well it made me ponder. It also stumped both Howard and I.

The question is : Who the Manufacturer is for the OEM 2 piece mazda apex seal?
What material was used?
What is the life expectency is on these seals given AI, MI and WI?
Why 2mm vs 3mm seals are/were used.......?

That being said as a mechanical enigneer by heart this makes me wonder why we all debate ALS or RA super seals are better and Atkins as well as Hurley.

These are more recent players in the game of aftermarket seals. They all stipulate why they are better then one another in their own descriptions without slandering other competitiors directly.

That being said Why do alot of people shy away from the OEM seals and go with the aftermarket?

Questions to ask yourself? How long has the rotary engine been around? How long have then been in Mazda's?

This being said wouldn't you think Mazda spent enough times debating this and put tons of hours/years in R&D and went through countless cyclic testing and durability? I sure would think so.

An OEM manufacturer spends thousands of dollars on design/enigneering/testing and then cost anaylsis on products to succeed their OEM product to be finalzied as the factory package. Well why wasn't some of the aftermarket seals in this market used as the "factory" product.

By all means this is no way to slander or put down the aftermarket scene in anyway, but only to find out who makes and produces the factory seals and why they were chosen over the aftermarket....?

Cheers!
Amir

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

mazda is the manufacturer of the mazda apex seal.

the seal is made of various materials known probably only to mazda.

life expectancy at higher than factory boost is improved w a good tune and further improved w AI.

3 mm seals are often used when the 2mm seal groove is out of spec. 3 mm seals are also used to provide a higher margin against knock.

mazda apex seals enjoy a deserved excellent reputation but given mazda raised prices 11% jan 1 2009 they also suffer from a cost comparison.

for example:

atkins apex seals are $220 (270 cryoed)
mazda apex seals are now $394 at Malloy.

hc

gio64

iTrader: (1)

You raise good points.
However, in my opinion,
1) you don't consider the fact that Mazda has engineered and produced seals that were suited for the specific application in the way they intended to be used, while people around here don't use them the way Mazda intended them to be used (eg. 24 lbs of boost on an engine that was designed to handle 10 or 600 hp out of a mostly stock engine that was designed to take 255).
2) development of new materials. As time goes by and Mazda decides to shelf the rotary turbo (haven't built a car with one since 2000), some options for the use of some materials are not considered simply because the cost-benefit analysis doesn't return positive results. Mazda's engineering choices were probably the result of managing production costs, engineering costs, durability of the part, induced durability on other parts, reliability, while some of us here might be looking at detonation-proof seals so they can tune safely at 30 lbs of boost, or ceramic seals for long service life, less friction and so on.

So, for instance, somebody here might be interested in a seal that seals better but lasts less, because they don't have a problem rebuilding every 2 years or every year (race applications); or, in another case, Mazda might consider useless to spend/charge for ceramic apex seals that last 300K miles, when they know that your coolant seals will go twice as fast, and once you open the engine, spending another 300 bucks or so for new seals is still a better option that having forked 1000 dollars for the ceramic seals when the engine was hypothetically produced.

To conclude, I believe that these cars are used with many different purposes and in many different levels of stress, so what was good and made sense for Mazda, might not be so for Joe Rotor around here...

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

gio64, i do agree. that's probably why mazda used ceramic seals in it's LeMans winning 4 rotor.

that all said, the magic bullet is not so much which seals but the tune, the ports and the engine systems... such as AI.

there are of course a few pretenders out there and a few seal cos that offered, initially, bad seals and have since straightened their product out.

hc

fastassturbo2

iTrader: (9)

all good points gentlemen!
Howard you are very correct about tuning, fuel and timing!
I am also concuring on the fact that AI is a must in order to safely raise boost without causing detnoation and hotter temps.
I would just be curious what Mazda's OEM material was used and who really manufactured those seals. I know for a fact that they had to be outsourced as majority of a car makeup is outsourced.

fastassturbo2

iTrader: (9)

gio64 your testiments are also valid reasoning in regards to design of the engines life cycle, boost, power and age. But when designing you would think you have a saftey factor for certain parts to be able to handle X amount of years/boost/HP etc...that being said I am still unsure if the OEM apex seals would be able to handle today's power seen in the 400~600Hp range...but then again with the appropriate tuning/fuel setup i am sure you can easily keep those seals alive at the higher boost levels. But then is this reliable? since we are managing more stress/strain at these higher levels....or is it in fact that we should be using a much harder bullet proof seal?

Again I am here picking peoples brains and thoughts...

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

I have yet to be impressed by any aftermarket apex seals.

Hurleys are absolute junk in my extensive and unfortunate personal experience (specifically the 2mm longlife racing seals).

Rotary aviation, I have yet to see any positive long term data with them.

Even ceramics, I've seen plenty of blown motor with ceramics and the damage inflicted isn't pretty.

Personally, for street applications less than ~500 rwhp, in my opinion and experience the 2mm 2 piece OEM seals are the way to go

rotary8

dont forget spark plugs used in application as well.

enzo250

Well I have had stock seals over 800hp without any issues. I probably made over one hundred dyno pulls with various power and the engine never missed a beat...

I've also had a few other cars with aftermarket seals and they never seem to make the same compression as stock and most never live to get off my dyno and if they do they don't last for much longer...

This has made me very skepitical about aftermarket seals but I will say that ceramics are the way to go..

Goodfellas your worried about engine damage from seals breaking? Well a stock seal will do it too.. I've had stock seals break from the corner and a little piece of the stock seal was enough to trash brand new housings...
the solution: Stock breaking engines..

I rather have an engine fail because of my fault instead of having a seal fail for other reasons...

Ceramics are much stronger then factory seals and will take more abuse before letting go. I believe if your breaking them you have to take a serious look at your setup and much sure you got everything in check, because if your breaking ceramics then nothing would live in that engine..

Ceramics are probably going to be the only seal i use besides the factory..

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

My personal opinion is that if you can't afford Ianetti Ceramic seals that you should stay with Mazda factory seals with my favorites being the forementioned 2 piece 2mm seals. I don't trust anyone else's seals regardless of who has good experiences with them. I won't use Atkins, Hurley, RA, or even any of the other ceramic seal makers. Ianetti or Mazda. You can't go wrong this way.

$394 vs $220 is a joke in my opinion. If anyone is building an engine and bases their choices on a measly $174, they shouldn't be building any rotary engines. I look at that $174 as insurance.

Here's an interesting picture. I don't know which aftermarket company's seal is pictured on the left (it's the rough one!) but I do know that the Mazda seal on the right is perfect.

http://www.rotaryeng.net/good1.JPG

I also know that Mazda has spent years researching apex seal materials and treatments that I guarantee NO other company has. Building a set on a hunch and then "testing" them in customers cars just isn't an option to me.

http://www.rotaryeng.net/history.html

http://www.rotaryeng.net/smooth.jpg

http://www.rotaryeng.net/APEX_SEAL_TEMP.JPG

http://www.rotaryeng.net/APEX_SEAL_ACCELLERATION2.JPG

http://www.rotaryeng.net/APEX_SEAL_VELOCITY.JPG

http://www.rotaryeng.net/Sealtemp-verse-oil-vol.jpg

Judging by all of this, I'd say Mazda probably knows a bit more about what kinds of stresses and forces apex seals experience and how to design for them by that's just me.

enzo250

Rotary God i argee with you 100%.. Well maybe 99%....

I using NRS ceramic seals and i would place them on the same quality as Iannetti if not higher...

fastassturbo2

iTrader: (9)

well it almost sounds the debate is between ceramics vs. the 2pc 2mm apex seals. Cermaics are very expensive.

Either way I would be curious who really manufacturers the apex seals for Mazda! ha I am sure that is going to be a challenge, but it sure would be interesting if someone has connections who can find this out. But I also agree with rotarygod, no aftermarket manufacturer has spent the time/money on R&D as much as Mazda has! Hence why I am thinking of going the OEM route.

fastassturbo2

iTrader: (9)

well I was curious what the Mazda part numbers are for the apex seals and springs?

trust7

Actually for everyones information, the reason 2mm exists is simply and ONLY because of one reason the same reason actually that 3 PIECE exists in addition to two piece.

Emissions, mazda was having a hard time with 3mm seals and 2piece seals at differing times/development etc, considering the problems they had with bad image and emissions being very highly scrutinized by the EPA and general public they looked to do everything possible to remedy.

2mm 3piece born, lighter, easier spring work, tighter sealing blowby/back etc so forth and so on.


I mostly agree with what Rgod says, simply because I dont know who can cut 3mm on rotors now and make them perfect, also as has been stated earlier and probably a million times in the forums if you break 2mm youll break 3mm maybe a few more psi or a few degrees of timing or heat one way or another but you can break either and 2m2p are beautiful and cheap really from Mazda.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I actually find threads and claims about "unbreakable apex seals" to be a joke. Something is going to break if you push it hard enough and if your apex seals don't, something else will which will mean a complete rebuild anyways. Those seals are way too hard on housings so even if you never push them to their limits, why sacrifice normal engine longevity? I'll never understand.

I've heard good things about NRS seals but I'm never going to consider them superior to Ianetti's. I don't really have a reason why other than Ianetti has been doing it longer and I personally know him. I'm biased. I have seen people break them and then complain about it but that's their fault. For those people they make "unbreakable apex seals"!

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

There's a place not too far from you that can do it without a hitch, they're located in Dallas and have a red white and blue drag car

trust7

lol it was no offense intended to ari or chris last I knew ( read several years back ) they were sending them out to be cut and so forth, not a dis just not knowing. I had ray at Shane do my last ones say 7 years ago still running on those now

djseven

iTrader: (56)

I can have them milled or CNC'd you decide. However, I hate dealing with the shipping of rotors, the postal services always find a way to damage them almost no matter how well you pack them.

As for the original conversation, Ive had great luck with the Atkins seals along with the Mazda Seals. The tune is the important part, hell ErnieT put down 700+on regular atkins 2mm seals, the tune is where it is at. I still prefer 3mm seals or the ALS seals for those looking to get up into the high 400s or higher, just from my experience over the years.

However, recently I have started using ALS seals and the results are great, however, it will likely be awhile before I tear down any engines with them so I wont know the long term effects.

Ive seen the results of other unbreakable seals after about 9-14k miles and it isnt pretty on the housings, to their credit they never broke and were on a car that was trapping right at 100mph in the 1/8th for near 14k miles. It is a give take relationship, a seal that is more prone to cracking/breaking will likely eat atleast one housing and a turbo, the unbreakables will likely eat both housings.

However, anyone looking to make 400+rwhp in a rotary doesnt have much room to complain when the engine breaks period. Technology has come a long way but these little engines are being pushed awful hard and we all know how fragile they are. Like others have posted, Water/meth, Premixing, and tuning goes along way. But water/meth sytems can fail and we all know what a nice cold night can do to a "tuned" turbo rotary.

Hopefully shops will continue to push forward to advance the rotary in power and longevity.