clearence Rx8 rotors, non rx-8 side seal
12-21-09, 03:15 AM
#1
clearence Rx8 rotors, non rx-8 side seal
For those that dont know, when you buy side seals for the renesis, they come cut to length per the stamp on the rotor. So when replacing them, you buy them matching and no need to clearence.
I have been told that since the side seals are futher pushed out making the angle where the seal meets the corner seal difficult to duplicate when clearencing them by hand.
any tips from EXPERIENCED people on clearencing older style 13b side seals in a renesis? and by experienced, i mean someone who has done this.
on a side note, do the renesis corner seals differ from the older 13b corner seals? I have a set i of atkins solid corner seals i never used for another motor i have. I was thinking of using these also...
I have been told that since the side seals are futher pushed out making the angle where the seal meets the corner seal difficult to duplicate when clearencing them by hand.
any tips from EXPERIENCED people on clearencing older style 13b side seals in a renesis? and by experienced, i mean someone who has done this.
on a side note, do the renesis corner seals differ from the older 13b corner seals? I have a set i of atkins solid corner seals i never used for another motor i have. I was thinking of using these also...
12-21-09, 08:56 PM
#2
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
Aren't Renesis side seals longer than 13b?
12-21-09, 10:44 PM
#3
yes. but when you buy non-renesis side seals. they are purposely longer than needed and need to be trimmed to to fit. so thats not a problem. mimicking the angle in wich they renesis side seals are clearenced might be...
it has been done before, i just havnt done it. Im just looking for tips from someone who has...
it has been done before, i just havnt done it. Im just looking for tips from someone who has...
12-22-09, 11:58 AM
#4
far as i know, wait ... let me rephrase ... from what i know of the side seals, i'm assuming the shape of the side seal slots would be different than the older 13Bs. so i doubt their seals would work in a Renesis rotor (at least not without machining or something. the Renesis side seals are wedge-shaped, whereas the older ones are not. not sure if you knew, but you can also buy them at standard long length, which you have to clearance yourself. they offer it as an option for people using Renesis rotors in older engines. also, as i think you mentioned, the arc is different from older side seals. you shouldn't have to mess with the older side seals at all for your project.
there's a side seal thread over at Rx-8 Club. there's some good info, but of course you'd have to sift through the bullshit to get at it.
for the corner seals, the only difference i'm aware of is the depth of the apex seal slot in it. the Renesis will obviously be shallow. however, the seal itself should fit in the slot on the rotor. i would tend to think that if your biggest hangup ends up being corner seals, you're probably better off getting the appropriate ones for your apex seals. i know every little bit adds up, but 12 corners seals (in the bigger picture) is really nothing.
there's a side seal thread over at Rx-8 Club. there's some good info, but of course you'd have to sift through the bullshit to get at it.
for the corner seals, the only difference i'm aware of is the depth of the apex seal slot in it. the Renesis will obviously be shallow. however, the seal itself should fit in the slot on the rotor. i would tend to think that if your biggest hangup ends up being corner seals, you're probably better off getting the appropriate ones for your apex seals. i know every little bit adds up, but 12 corners seals (in the bigger picture) is really nothing.
12-22-09, 12:08 PM
#5
another thing i forgot to mention is it seems like you'll have to modify your rotors for older apex seals anyway. i recently found out that even for N/A applications, the Renesis apex seals won't play nice with the peripheral exhaust ports you plan to run in your setup. so the corner seals you already have will be fine.
12-22-09, 01:20 PM
#6
Id love to run Rx8 rotors in my N/A 20B setup. I know it has been done, but it seems like a headache to me. Not sure if its worth all of the hassle, although I would like the decrease in weight, as well as the slight compression bump over S5 N/A rotors.
12-22-09, 01:48 PM
#7
another thing i forgot to mention is it seems like you'll have to modify your rotors for older apex seals anyway. i recently found out that even for N/A applications, the Renesis apex seals won't play nice with the peripheral exhaust ports you plan to run in your setup. so the corner seals you already have will be fine.
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12-22-09, 03:11 PM
#8
S5 n/a rotors are much less work than Rx8 rotors. And they're still the better choice for outright hp 
Oil temps won't go through the roof with S5 rotors either.
The only way you'll get early side seals into Rx8 rotors is to mill or spark erode every groove. I can't see it achieving anything. You would be better off using the over-length Rx8 side seals and clearancing them to suit. They're not too difficult to clearance, just measure them whilst holding them down in their respective grooves so there is only 1mm or so protruding. The further they're pushed in, the tighter the clearance. Use a piece of flat aluminium or similar to hold them down. It's ok if you end up with zero clearance, as long as the seals still spring back freely when pushed down evenly across their length. I aim for 0-1" for n/a PP, and 1-2" for turbo.
Oil temps won't go through the roof with S5 rotors either.The only way you'll get early side seals into Rx8 rotors is to mill or spark erode every groove. I can't see it achieving anything. You would be better off using the over-length Rx8 side seals and clearancing them to suit. They're not too difficult to clearance, just measure them whilst holding them down in their respective grooves so there is only 1mm or so protruding. The further they're pushed in, the tighter the clearance. Use a piece of flat aluminium or similar to hold them down. It's ok if you end up with zero clearance, as long as the seals still spring back freely when pushed down evenly across their length. I aim for 0-1" for n/a PP, and 1-2" for turbo.
12-22-09, 04:53 PM
#10
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
yes. but when you buy non-renesis side seals. they are purposely longer than needed and need to be trimmed to to fit. so thats not a problem. mimicking the angle in wich they renesis side seals are clearenced might be...
it has been done before, i just havnt done it. Im just looking for tips from someone who has...
it has been done before, i just havnt done it. Im just looking for tips from someone who has...
12-22-09, 05:42 PM
#11
The reason i want to use the Rx8 rotors is because im using them in a mixed up motor. (search: inglourious basterd) Im using a mixture of renesis plates and older 13b/12a plates/housings. the reason the side seals on Rx8 rotors are pushed out is because the opening edge of the ports is much earlier. Im not sure if the S5 NA rotors will work with the placement of the side seal... I'll have to look further into that, since i would actully prefer the 9.7s over the reni rotors for this motor im building...
12-23-09, 02:31 PM
#13
^ i did a lot of searching last night. It seems the only major problem is the older rotors dont have the second compression ring inbetween the side seals the the oil control rings. this keeps direct heat from the oil control rings. without it, they can fail at a rapid rate. This was only tested on a turbo motor from what i know. and only in a full renesis. The other thing rapid side seal wear. but thats fixable with beveling the closing edge of the port. so thats nothing.
Im skeptical still. since this motor will have a mixture of side/peripheral exhaust ports. and i always bevel the closing edge of the port. and also will be all motor only. So,I cant say for sure that the 9.7's cant be used. since it was in such a different set-up... and it was on i think 100 octane gas. I will be running it on much cooler burning E85.
whats pushing me away from the renesis rotors is the side seal problem. It seems to be hard for them to hold compression as well as the earlier rotors. i dont want to spend time and money machining the rx8 rotors to work, just to remove them and use the older rotors again.
Im skeptical still. since this motor will have a mixture of side/peripheral exhaust ports. and i always bevel the closing edge of the port. and also will be all motor only. So,I cant say for sure that the 9.7's cant be used. since it was in such a different set-up... and it was on i think 100 octane gas. I will be running it on much cooler burning E85.
whats pushing me away from the renesis rotors is the side seal problem. It seems to be hard for them to hold compression as well as the earlier rotors. i dont want to spend time and money machining the rx8 rotors to work, just to remove them and use the older rotors again.
12-26-09, 12:56 PM
#15
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^ i did a lot of searching last night. It seems the only major problem is the older rotors dont have the second compression ring inbetween the side seals the the oil control rings. this keeps direct heat from the oil control rings. without it, they can fail at a rapid rate. This was only tested on a turbo motor from what i know. and only in a full renesis. The other thing rapid side seal wear. but thats fixable with beveling the closing edge of the port. so thats nothing.
Im skeptical still. since this motor will have a mixture of side/peripheral exhaust ports. and i always bevel the closing edge of the port. and also will be all motor only. So,I cant say for sure that the 9.7's cant be used. since it was in such a different set-up... and it was on i think 100 octane gas. I will be running it on much cooler burning E85.
whats pushing me away from the renesis rotors is the side seal problem. It seems to be hard for them to hold compression as well as the earlier rotors. i dont want to spend time and money machining the rx8 rotors to work, just to remove them and use the older rotors again.
Im skeptical still. since this motor will have a mixture of side/peripheral exhaust ports. and i always bevel the closing edge of the port. and also will be all motor only. So,I cant say for sure that the 9.7's cant be used. since it was in such a different set-up... and it was on i think 100 octane gas. I will be running it on much cooler burning E85.
whats pushing me away from the renesis rotors is the side seal problem. It seems to be hard for them to hold compression as well as the earlier rotors. i dont want to spend time and money machining the rx8 rotors to work, just to remove them and use the older rotors again.
they did a couple things with the side seals. the first is that they moved them out a bit to make room for a larger intake port.
also they changed the shape of the side seal, its not rectangular like the older engines, they call it a keystone shape. so you couldn't put older side seals in the newer rotors.
if you're using Rx8 intake ports, i think you're stuck with rx8 rotors.
i have not had the parts in my hand yet though, so feel free to check for yourself
12-26-09, 03:11 PM
#16
that would mimic the shape of the corner seal real well making it a nice fit also...
12-26-09, 03:23 PM
#17
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Im not sure whats going on there but im guessing that anything sticking out past the side seal groove into the corner seal area is grinded away making it flush with corner seal when installed? 0 clearence???
that would mimic the shape of the corner seal real well making it a nice fit also...
that would mimic the shape of the corner seal real well making it a nice fit also...
By grinding them to the exact shape you will get very little wear from having 100% contact.
If you want Zero clearance that is a different story. Check this thread.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...errerid=101407
Barry
12-26-09, 07:49 PM
#18
Use the recommended factory clearances. .002-.004" on a 13B turbo, a little less NA, and a little more Renesis since the exhaust will expand the side seals more.
By grinding them to the exact shape you will get very little wear from having 100% contact.
If you want Zero clearance that is a different story. Check this thread.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...errerid=101407
Barry
By grinding them to the exact shape you will get very little wear from having 100% contact.
If you want Zero clearance that is a different story. Check this thread.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...errerid=101407
Barry
one question about the photo you posted above though... do you feed the side seal toward the grinding stone with it just barely off the wall of the the corner seal area?
12-27-09, 07:59 AM
#19
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
I guess I should started with...... take one sideseal, mark it with a Marks-a-lot, and using it as your standard measure between all corner seals. Write measurements on the rotor sides.
When cutting the sideseals I hold the non-cutting end and approximate the protrusion in the adjacent cornerseal bore. Then cut the seals vertically using the drill press lever.
Always cut the longest seals first so in case you overcut them they just move down to the next shortest length.
Barry
12-28-09, 05:18 PM
#20
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Hi Guys
I´ve done a little more than 1600 rotary engines and I`m used to challenge. Recently I assambled my first set of new side seals for a renesis engine. I get them all at 0.004-0.006 first with the grinder and then finishing them by hand. Its not a big deal, you just have to be carefull cause they are pretty expensive. Manual says not more than 0.016 adding both ends. They recomend inserting a 0.006 feeler gauge in tapered surface of the side seal to hold it while measuring it.
Today I´m doing my second set of new side seals in another RX-8 engine. I got part # 11-C11C-N3H1-8H at Mazdatrix which are the longer ones to cut.
I´ve done a little more than 1600 rotary engines and I`m used to challenge. Recently I assambled my first set of new side seals for a renesis engine. I get them all at 0.004-0.006 first with the grinder and then finishing them by hand. Its not a big deal, you just have to be carefull cause they are pretty expensive. Manual says not more than 0.016 adding both ends. They recomend inserting a 0.006 feeler gauge in tapered surface of the side seal to hold it while measuring it.
Today I´m doing my second set of new side seals in another RX-8 engine. I got part # 11-C11C-N3H1-8H at Mazdatrix which are the longer ones to cut.
