mguire

Hey y'all, I was talking to Rob Golden at Pineapple Racing last weekend and asked about his experience with the ATF treatment. He said that he prefers to use water.
1) works well, steam is very effective at breaking up carbon. Gives a noticable power gain.
2) easier and quicker, just pull a vaccuum hose at the dynamic chamber and pour 2 liters of water in (no kidding) while the car is reved up and down above 4k rpm. Just pour it in as fast as you can without killing the motor.
3) doesn't fowl plugs, O2 sensor, or clog the cats like ATF (actually cleans them).

I gave this a try last weekend and here was my experience:

I pulled a vacuum hose off of the dynamic chamber and placed a fresh hose in it and submerbed that
hose in 1 liter of water. The motor sucked up the water over about 3 minutes or so. I had to give the car gas to keep it running; about 4 k rpm most of the time, but I varied this quite a bit between 2k and 6k rpm. Obviously the car ran rough during the treatment. Towards the end of the treatment I noticed smoke coming from the side of my car near the back wheels and a burning smell. I looked under the car and to my suprise the cat and muffler pipes were glowing orange hot! (it was about 30 minutes before dark) I don't know wtf was going on but it got my adrenaline going! I shut the car off and let things cool down.

After things cooled down I took it for a spin. The car runs better, idles better, and has a bit more power (feels like 10-15 horsies, but this us just a guess). It also has noticeably better response at part-throttle. Feels more torque-y. So, it works, but I'm worried about what all that heat could do to my new mufflers and cat, although everything seems fine now.

Anyone else ever try this?

-Eric

Suparslinc

Yep water works great. Some people even hook a hose up to their washer fluid reservoir; so they can squirt water into the engine with a flick of a lever. Also makes for a great James Bond smokescreen for pesky tailgaters.
the only problem I see with water is that it doesn't have the time or the ability to penetrate like the ATF; when you soak with ATF it sits for a long time and really works into the built-up stuff between your apex seals and rotor. Water injection, though, is a very old and effective trick. I'll stick with my ATF.
As far as the cats glowing I really have no idea. Maybe the water has nothing to do with it and something else caused it like clogged cats.

atihun

This sounds very interesting. Any info on why the pipes were glowing red hot?

Also, is this have a lasting effect?

By the way, which is the "dynamic chamber"?

Thanks.

mguire

I talked with Rob and he said that it is typical for the exhaust to run hot during the treatment (similar to what you get after extended hard racing). The temp and pressure in the combustion chamber is sufficient to cause hydrolysis of the water, forming O2 and H2 gases. The O2 sensor picks up the extra oxygen and richens the mixture. My high flow cat is only 6 months old, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't clogged.

A gain of 5-8 HP is typical, more if you have excessive carbon build-up. Do it once every 6 months or install a do-it-yourself water vapor injection kit that will prevent carbon formation. I'm going to stop by the shop one of these days and get a blueprint for doing this. If anyone is interested e-mail me at mguire@aracnet.com.

larsyoung

I don't have a bottle handy, but I put this stuff in my boat gas tanks called "Carbon-Free", or somthing like that. It's designed to keep carbon from building up inside the pistons. Since most boat engines run on the rich side and non-commercial boats usually sit unused for days at a time carbon build-up is a problem. Anyone ever try a product like that?

Lars

tesla042

Anyone have a writeup of how to do this? It's just crazy enough to be cool..heh

-Tesla

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Where did you get that 2H2O ---> 2H2 + O2 thing? If that's happening, your engine will be gone by now. H2 is a very flammable gas. The energy it gives out when combining with Oxygen is crazy enough to make your whole car blow up. You don't want that in your engine. Actually you don't want that thing near you at all. High pressure and high heat will not break H2O to H2 and O2. You need electrolysis.

Chuck

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

I think what he means by the "dynamic chamber" is just the intake manfiold. On the FD, there are two nippes on the left hand side of the intake manifold. You can just run a tube to that nipple and the other end of the tube just dip it into a water bottle. The vacuum generated by the engine will suck the water in. I don't know if you have that nipple on the FC.

Chuck

jimmyv13

Has anybody tried this on a 1st gen? How would it be done, could you just pour it down the primaries while it was running?

Cameljoe

Where would you hook up the water on a TII?

Felix Wankel

Who the hell closed this?

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

need more info, is that for NA only or would it work on 13BT too ? some better writeup possible??? thanks

mguire

It's the same principal for all cars: get water into the intake manifold. With most 1st gens you can just pour it into the carborator. With a turbo, I'm not sure how to do this. Since your are above 1 ATM (boost) the water would have to be forced in under pressure. I suggest using a water vapor injection kit, and keep the carbon out of the motor all the time!

In fact, water does combust in the engine, unless you drown it. The combination of several hundred PSI and >1000 degrees does the trick! The hydrogen gets incorported into hydrocarbons, and most of the oxygen is incorporated into various stable carbon oxides. I miss spoke when I claimed that the water is hydrolized into diatomic hydrogen (H2)and oxygen (O2). H2 is far to unstable to form as a product of combustion. In any event, the O2 sensor picks up the extra O2 and richens the mixture. BTW: I pumped a liter of water into my engine and no visable steam came out of the exhaust.

-Eric

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

i still have no clue where to hook up water on NA 13B ;p

probably need some howto with pictures ;o)))

mguire

The vacuum nipple just below the BAC is a good one. Or, I used the nipple on the front of the manifold about an inch or two downwind of the throttle body (on my '86 there are three in a row vertically, I used the larger one on the top).

-Eric
<img src="http://www.aracnet.com/~mguire/images/rx7.jpg">

Rotortuner

I will bet one of the reasons why it gets so hot is because of the steam that would almost make it glow. Any ways you guys just hook it up any where that is sucking, it all goes to the same place. A brake booster line would probably work to.

CJG

whitekingsnake

The last thing I want driving down the road is to have some carbon come lose and wedge itself between an apex seal and housing and blowing my engine.

This ATF teatment sounds no different. The carbon inside is pretty hard and I don't think the ATF dissolves it to a paste. You will break the carbon loose from the rotor but your going to have to have it going through your turbos and getting in between your housing and seals. Now if you could suck it out, that would be great.

The rotary burns oil by design so you will always have carbon forming inside, but how much is up to you. Just drive the **** out it.

mguire

Yeah, before the treatment I noticed that hard driving improves performance. Nice bonus! But I've never heard of problems with carbon scale hurting an engine or turbo on its way out. Anyone?

Hyperite

I have....i don't remember who, but.... if a chunk of carbon comes off, best case scenario is it goes out the engine and just damages the turbos (still very expensive), or worse case it takes a bite out of the apex seals, then those exit and damage the turbos (very bad).
~Tom

jspecracer7

Anyone every try two stroke oil in their gas tank? I normally add an ounce or two to a full tank and that seems to keep any carbon locking up from happening. Just my two cents...

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

thats premix, some guys without (or with no working) oil metering pump are using this like ONLY way to add oil to fire ;o)

i didn`t notice big improvement after water treatment, car still runs ;o)

pp13bnos

iTrader: (1)

On all of my old race engines, i allways used mobile 1 syth. oil. Rob told me to use it, and i did. Cj

rxrotary2_7

Thank YOU! someone agrees with me. when i read these threads, i just ignore them anymore. i dont even put my .2cents in. i think people want to do this because they feel like they are "working on their car" just let them go....workin away. i think that is what "rebuild time" is for....getting all that unwanted carbon out when it is more appropriate. while the motor is running, beat the **** out of it!, it has enough reasons to blow on its own, dont add another one.

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

this tread makes me think about water injection, where i could find some info about it ?

SureShot

Higgi,
Do you still have the cold start reservoir?
Fill it with water/methanol solution and put a switch inside..