ErixHvn

Got disabled in a work accident in CA then moved to FL just to be rear ended a month after I got there. Both caused injuries to my neck. Had to give up driving my RX (doc's suggestion) and wound up driving a Suburban (boring)just so I'd have a little more metal and mass for my protection while I healed up. Not boohoo'ing about my predicament but I'm sick of driving something that doesn't excite me at all. However did get to appreciate the kind of low/mid end torque from a V8.
It's been 2 years since the last accident and feeling better but I'm going out of my mind, Call me nuts but I gottta do this or die trying. After reading ZBrown and 88integraLS's threads of their SC builds, I was inspired to make an attempt to SC my S4 NA. Much of what I've been able to find out researching this project just proves that the more I read the less adequate I feel about tackling this project. Due to certain physical limitations I'm no longer able to do a lot of the work under the hood and will have to farm out a lot of the labor involved. Because of this I feel that I will probably only get one shot at getting this right and would like to ask the more experienced members of this club for some of their knowledge and advise. Might save me from a lot of heartbreak down the road.

Well here's what I intend to do at least for now since I've already purchased a millenia lysholm off Ebay. Please let me know if I'm outright insane for trying to do it this way. I'm having Johnny at RPM racing in Sanford, FL fab me a bracket to accomodate the SC on the passenger side of the engine compartment, only because I'd like to keep the AC functional. Just too hot in the summer in FL without it.

I intend to upgrade the primary injectors to 550cc's, Secondaries to 720's and add a rising rate FPR / FMU. VORTECH? What ratio? 8:1, 12:1?. I wouldn't even know where to begin with these. For the fuel pump I bought an FD pump(ebay) but I dont even know what kind of pressure/volume I'd be dealing with.

I'm hoping to push 6-8 lbs boost thru the Millenia aftercooler since I was able to buy the entire package including the intake plumbing, TB and BOV for $380 incl shipping. Thought the plumbing at least would supply me with the proper flanges.
However as far as calculating pulley ratios for this particular SC to achieve the intended boost pressures I dont even have a clue. What does a 13b 6port flow at a particular rpm? Does the opening of the secondary ports change the volume? What will the SC blow? My local Mazda dealer couldn't even tell me. 88integraLS?

As far the ECU's concerned I'm undecided on whether an SAFC2 would be enough to manage the added boost since the SC output is supposed to be much more linear (predictable?)than a turbo. Would I need to swap map sensor to one from a TII.I know I read somewhere that the sensor in an S4 NA only reads vacuum while the TII of course reads VAC/boost. Will it work w/ a stock ecu doing the sensor swap. AaronCake?

Or maybe Megasquirt the whole thing but then who has the kind of experience to tune this for my application in FL. I know MuyThaiboxer has been able to fab an S4 Plug n' play Megasquirt but the tuning shops around here in FL seem to shy away from the DIY ecu's. Are there maps to allow me to pattern one to maybe TII specs that would allow me to run w/out blowing up my motor? Someone willing to be my guide fine tuning it after here would be awesome.

Or wait for RTEK7 stage2 to come out with their version for the s4 NA which I was informed by Mike at Digital Tuning was at least another 6 months away. Dont know how Rtek users feel about their upgrades' tunability.

Then the question of TB placement. Seen applications attaching to either intake or discharge side of the SC. Pro's/ Con's? BOV placement also becomes a question of before or after the cooler. Will I need any other bypass mechanism on the SC's intake side( JIC the belt snaps) would I still be able to run this way? SonicRat?

Anyone else w/ suggestions of anything else that I might not have thought of. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. I know I have mentioned some handles. Pardon me if I mispell your handles. No disrespect intended. Please feel free to offer your suggestions to the open forum. I'm hoping that I'd get enough of a response to actually be able to guide me in the right direction. I know that some of these questions may have been answered somewhere else before but please bear w/ me if it does become rather repetitious. Feel free to contact me via email also.

Most of all, WISH ME LUCK.

Thanks to all in advance
ERIC
erixhvn@aol.com

13b4me

Good luck...

Sounds like a fun project!

tIIforever

someone correct mme if im wrong but I think that you can get a turbo ecu and afm adn boost sensor the replace your na ones with those and then u could runthe rtek and the ecu is already to go then all you gotta worry about is the plumbing and tuning.

i dont know if that helps or not but good luck let us know how it goes

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

I wish you luck on this project...but I jsut have to add one thing and please don't take offense because Im only saying it in *thoughtful* aid...

Do a TII swap

You will have much more documentation and knowledgable help, plus you will end up with something that is as fun (if not more) to drive in the end.

I understand that the supercharger hasn't been done too much and therefore the allure factor is present, but if you are that worried about having a huge headache down the road and are goign to have to pay someone to do most of it, why not go with a tried tested and true method of ending up with a super fun car to drive....

Regradless - best of luck on the project!!

ErixHvn

Never even thought of the possiblity of using the TII ECU w/ the Rtek7 v2. Now I have to find one at the right price. Figure out which thread I read about mod'ing the NA harness to work. I remember somewhere I read that it was 2 wires and that's all it took but which wires. But then this is why I'm doing my due diligence now. Thanks for the heads-up

Might have to run v2 only because it allows staging secondaries at a much lower rpm than stock but then again might be unnecessary. My reasoning is that the SC boost comes on at a much lower rpm than the turbo. But then again I dont know the boost rate of a lysholm at a particular rpm w/ the 6 port at the stock pulley diameters. Will it be enough to cause it to lean out? Or will it have to wait for a wideband for me to find out? Any thoughts anyone? Perhaps the Megasquirt might still be the most economical option.

Not knowing the FD fuel pump specs. doesn't help either. How much does this pump flow? Did a search but came up empty. Anyone have these specs handy. The local Mazda dealer just isn't much help on this project at all. Of course they would rather I bought an FD from them. Might have to go walbro 255's only because the spec are known at least. I did however get the FD pump on Ebay for $22.

Just hate to wind up buy the wrong parts combination because I wasn't humble enough to ask those who actually been there and done that. Not exactly boldly going where no one has gone before but I did learn sometime ago about the benefit of learning from the experienced. Plus the fact that being a disability bum doesn't afford me the luxury of making too many mistakes.

At the expense of being long winded, My reason for not doing the TII conv. is because at this point I cant afford the drivetrain upgrades that I'd have to do. And doing it on my existing motor (always thought of it as the little engine that could) gives me some comfort knowing that it had been maintained properly and hasn't been abused. But then again I could wind up blowing it all to pieces too.

Thanks for the encouragement and keep the ideas coming. Hope that "Paralysis by Analysis" doesn't set in.

BTW, Anyone w/ a wideband I could buy/rent for cheap.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

FD pump is approx. 240lph

edit: also the drivetrain upgrades req'd with a TII conversion are *pretty much* going to be required at a certain point on the s/c build up....running the N/A motor with its higher compression plus the 8psi will put your power levels near or above that of a stock TII, and after some abuse those N/A driveline bits will give-way...

AGAIN

not trying to discourage AT ALL, just trying to help...

ErixHvn

Re-read Zbrown's build of his NA again. This time picked up a few things I might have missed out on the first couple of times. Wish I could see the pictures of his brackets. I guess pics on older threads get dropped. But if the info I read on that thread is true then 6-8lbs thru an intercooler w/ stock ecu, an FMU, 550 secondaries w/ the FD pump might actually allow me to make it a much more affordable SC mod. Maybe now I can also afford an MSD6a.

Turns out a lot of answers to my questions were already in Zbrown's thread, I guess" seek and you shall find". My own fault for blowing thru the thread the first couple of times when I've been up all night. Neck pain induced insomnia. But now I'm starting to feel a little more confident about doing this project. I still would like to see how Zbrown's brackets were constructed. Anyone save the pics to this build?

Thanks for the info from classicauto & tIIfo rever, Now it makes sense to do this project in stages more than ever. SonicRat's post on other threads have also been very helpful. Most of all, Zbrown and 88integraLS for your inspiration, Thank You!

Now I cant wait to take delivery of the lysholm and parts so I can get started. I suppose I should try to track down a BOV and a couple of 550's, an FMU then it would be full speed ahead. Will post the buildup of this project soon hopefully.

Do it or die tryin'. If this works it just might snap my neck but what a way to go. YEEEEHA!!!

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Zbrown made some very big mistakes. The first one was the throttlebody after the blower. That's definitely a no-no with a positive displacement blower. The 2nd thing he did wrong and this also has an enourmous effect on power is that he used a very small inlet and outlet. This will kill the efficiency.

ErixHvn

Will be trying to attach the TB ahead of SC intake if I can find a way to do it w/ out too much trouble. Might even do it as 88IntegraLS did but I'm not sure if I'd want to keep the stock TB in the same place behind the IC. I guess the question now would be the TPS mounting and operation and getting a throttle cable. Any suggestions on what kind of TB to get? Will it have a compatible TPS?

After that would be fabbing the flanges to the stock UIM, Find a way to mount the millenia aftercooler. I'm wondering if I have enough room for it to work as a TMIC then worry about the plumbing. Which then brings to mind another question about intake temps. I'm wondering if I could fab the pipes out of sch40 PVC without them melting down. What would temps be like out of the lysholm pushing 8lbs?

Questions, Questions, Questions, and then some more questions but then I am glad to be finding so many members willing to help.

Man, I hope I get some sleep tonight. Been up for 38 hours so far. I'm starting to hallucinate. Reminds me of the time I spent on a crab boat in AK except here the only fear I have is blowing the motor up. Nobody dies.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I should just delete that entire zbrown thread. If there's a dictionary definition of a hack job, that thread is it.

Looks like most points have been covered...

For throttle body, there are plenty to choose from. The wrecking yard can be a great place for hunting or you can buy one of the numerous aftermarket Mustang throttle bodies. Or use the stocker. Generally the throttle cable will match up after you make an appropriate bracket. Most of these throttle bodies come with a TPS and since you're going standalone you can use any TPS you want.

Don't use PVC. It can't handle the underhood temps and releases chlorine gas when heated.

A top mount IC is an interesting idea, but I think you may run out of room for the plumbing.

ErixHvn

At this point I'm thinking that I'll be staging this project just so I'd still be ble to return things back to stock conveniently if necessary so I'm retaining my stock TB if I can find way to get it attached to 2.5" or 3" intake. Btw, Will this fit on an s4 NA TB? TII TB elbow. I'm also concerned about how the back end of the TB gets connected to a round pipe and the plenum/UIM. Will this same part work for that purpose I wonder. Is the shape of the TB flange the same front and back?

Was also wondering what would happen with lower end torque with the TB moved to the intake side of the SC? Any ideas? Only because I'm hoping to retain all the secondary throttle plates function. Please advise.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The progressive ports are really only for idle and off-idle transitions and very low throttle driving. With the supercharger you shouldn't have too big an issue but it might be a problem getting the car to idle properly. What you might want to consider is gutting the stock throttle body of the primary blades and only leaving the secondary. Then use a large throttle body at the input of the blower as the main throttle. Then actuate the secondary throttles via a cable.

The turbo throttle body air horn bolts right onto the NA throttle body.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i agree with classicauto, this setup will cost more than a T2 swap in the end even without the T2 drivetrain. sorry but i hope you know what you are in for, unless you do most of the work yourself this is going to be a very expensive project.

ErixHvn

At this point I'm still not willing to concede that it would be more expensive to do the TII swap. At least not yet. I could wind up doing so in the long run and live to regret it. But I'd rather have tried than wonder what if?
As far as cost is concerned I'm very conscious of the fact in order to get this project off the ground I would have to find most of the parts at the junk yard or ebay. The reason for my last post was to try and find out if it was possible to use to stock TB thus avoiding the neccessity of a standalone ECU as I'm finding out that a Megasquirt requires more tuning savvy than I've got at the moment.

I'm not so ambitious as to go to far beyond my comfort zone to push more than 6-8 lbs boost. And I'm hoping that with the fuel pump, injector (550cc secondaries) an intercooler and FMU on a stock ECU would give me a reasonable baseline to warrant whether to go any further or not. I think I might just wait for RTEK7 v2 for the S4 NA when the time comes.

Here comes some more questions though and I do sincerely hope that there are still those who dont think I'm absolutely nuts for trying, That would still be willing to help me find the end of my quest.

As far as the intake goes & from what I've researched also, I'm still left wondering if there's enough air going thru the supercharger and a bypass valve to allow the engine to run in case of SC belt failure. The bypass will be positioned behind the add on TB before the SC intake and piped to the IC outlet side before the stock TB w/ possibly another bypass valve at that end just to close off the boosted air form entering the bypass plumbing during boost. Note that both valves set to open only under vacuum condition. I would think that it would allow the engine to run in limp modeat idle but what about partial and WOT. Would a second bypass valve even be necessary for the purpose of blocking the boosted air from the bypass plumbing?

Would the location/source of the vacuum make a difference? Say maybe manifold vac. from Lower Intake Manifold vs. vacuum at the TB (stock location, modified as per AaronCake, Only secondary plates left functioning) or if it even makes any difference by positioning the source before or after the throttle plates. Wide open throttle I tend to believe would not allow enough vacuum to pull the bypass valves open if it were taken from the manifold. While I also believe that except for under boost condition if I were to take vacuum from say the primary throttle orifice of the TB, the (sort of) venturi effect stays in place to produce enough vac to operate the bypass valve. Correct me if I'm wrong please. I need all the constructive suggestions I can get.

I suppose I could wait until the everything is put together to find out but by then it might be too late to address the issue being that the SC outlet to intercooler outlet pipe would be made to accomodate the bypass valve hardware unnecessarily. My reason for the intended placement of the 2nd bypass valve behind rather than before the intercooler is to avoid any other obstruction/restriction/turbulence issues (air velocity losses?). The other is to maybe use this location later on as a BOV location and pipe the bypass to before the IC.

Then the question of the (add on)TB. Will the suggested Ford TB's accomodate the S4 TPS with some mods? Anyone with previous experience with these TB's?

And lastly can I use some sort of boost controller to delay the opening of the 5/6th port since I'll be running the actuators off The SC's boost? The boost comes on earlier than in most turbo applications. Would a mechanical boost control valve work?

Thanks to all who have shown interest in this project. Pro or Con doesn't matter as long as I can find input.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

well most of the guys you are asking for advice from are DIYers, the better question to ask them would be how many hours it takes to do each step and figure that at in labor for your local area. unfortunately i'm willing to bet it will be a small fortune.

ErixHvn

I do agree however that although Zbrown's build had quite a few inherent flaws, I still believe that he earned the recognition for daring enough to try.

From his project I gained some insight on what and what not do, So it wasn't all a waste. If it's decided to move the thread I hope it would go somewhere where it serves that purpose. Just IMHO.

ErixHvn

For the TB, It was pointed out to me that a mustang TB could be used for this project but couldn't verify year, model. Anyone try this with any success? Did it work with the NA stock ecu with the TPS or were any other mods to the TB necessary?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Take a trip to the wreckers and look at the throttle bodies from late '80s to mid '90s Mustangs. They're all fairly straightforward but of course using one will NOT be a bolt-on.

There are also a lot of them available aftermarket. Take a look at the Summit Racing website for examples.

As for TPS, you will need to retrofit the S4 TPS onto the new throttle body. The S4 ECU expects a 1/4 range TPS. Not sure how it would react to seeing a full range unit (probably poorly).

Why use the stock ECU? Many better options are available...

ErixHvn

Trying to keep the price down low for now. I'm sort of waiting for the Rtek7 v2 to come out before I do any major changes to ECU to see how well it works before deciding. Would really like to get the Megasquirt from Muythaiboxer. I hear he made those that plug and play w/ an S4 NA but I'm a little concerned about my inexperience in tuning ECU's for fuel and ignition.

Besides, I might not be happy with the result and decide to go back to stock but I doubt it. I'm hoping that for now the FMU and 550's secondaries @ 6-8 lbs. intercooled would be a good place to start to get some baseline performance impressions with a Butt Dyno. Eventually I might stage the upgrades as I gain more confidence in this project.

What FMU would you recomend for this kind of application? I've seen those made by Vortech on ebay of all kinds of rates of rise but don't have a clue as to what I'd need. Wouldn't a riser type FMU/FPR mess up the tune on a standalone since the pressure fluctuates constantly?

BTW, Does the CAS on an S4 NA have the kind of timing advance that can be
mechanically disconnected or is it done electronically?

Thanks for the TB info Aaron, Will start scrounging the junk yards and ebay for one of those. Might even learn a thing or two while I search for the right one. What would you suggest though if I was to use the stock TB at the charger intake. Should I take the boosted air thru the plenum or go straight to the UIM if I was to do the TB this way?

I was leaning towards an LC-1 wideband but still undecided, Any user's impressions?

And lastly, Thinking about doing the TB mods since that will be off the engine anyway. Will definitely remove all emissions related junk while I'm at it. Any gains to be had by boring out the TB as some have done(Just not in this applications)?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

RTek is only for S4 turbos, so you need to use the S4 turbo ECU if you go that route.

I've never used an FMU since I consider it an ugly hack and only a rough way of getting more fuel into the engine. But I have heard good things abotu the Vortech unit.

Raising fuel pressure with a standalone is no problem since you can easily tune around/with it. Even the factory FPR dramatically raises fuel pressure under boost to maintain a good spray.

No. This is all done with the ECU. There's essentially no way to fire the coils with the CAS without going through the ECU. Well, no easy way anyway...

If I was building this system, I would mount the blower directly onto the lower intake manifold and then attach my TB to the blower at the back where it intakes. This would prevent any intercooling though.

It's a great unit.

The TB is already huge. There will be some small gains by smoothing it out, but nothing gained by enlarging the bores.

88IntegraLS

My setup did about 9-10 psi with the secondary throttle plates wired closed with the stock millenia pully on the s/c and a 5" pulley on the crankshaft. Car wasn't very fast like that and I eventually unwired the plates and wired them open. Then it did about 8 psi and pulled like a damn V8! This was at 2k rpm and below since my POS megasquirt ignition was not working right. The motor had a BIG street port, God only knows how ferocious it would have been at 7k rpm with 8psi of twin screw forced Oregon air going through it! The car probably would have been in the low 13's at the dragstrip like that, it was seriously cool how fast it made boost and the sound..... *shudder* don't make me remember how sweet it was.

God I miss that setup. I still have it; the original buyer hasn't come through, anyone want a millenia SC setup, 98% ready to go, just add your ECU and get the charger rebuilt.

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

^^ how much again?

slpin

iTrader: (9)

what do you have against zbrown's write up?
your na - turbo swap is just as much a hack job.....

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

PWNED? I never heard him say his job was better . . .

GTU_FAN

Just wanna say I know what that's like... When I was 13 my neck was sprained so badly from a car accident I had to see a chiropractor twice a week for 6 months just to get my head back on strait... literally. It was painful for years afterward. Had to quit PE, riding in mountain bike races... (which was my passion before cars) basically completely change my life.
Since then I've been in 2 more serious car accidents which haven't really helped my neck. But I also crushed my right foot, which is even more of a disability for me nowadays.
Just wanna say that it gets easier to cope with and you shouldn't loose hope. If your passionate about cars and wrenching then you should use that as a means to challenge yourself to get healthier. Its probably not the best thing next to physical therapy, but staying active is always good for you.