88IntegraLS

$995, and you can save the 50-100 hours of labor you would spend making it yourself.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

You're kidding me, right? I don't think a lot of people realise that the first setup was simply a prototype for what I am doing now, and that even in prototype stage it worked spectacularly.

zbrown's setup was horrid and I don't think it was ever proved that it actually worked past the fact that the car drove.

But I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply...

slpin

iTrader: (9)

if it was just a mock-up, then it was alright... but if it was the real thing, there are many things that needs to be thought out more, dont you agree? it seems like you were throwing it together and learning as you go along. i.e. tuning on narrowband, na ecu, didnt at least back the timing off a little, banging the frame, horrible oil drain back tube...

shrugs, we still gave your na-turbo write up a chance... why not give his a chance too???

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

there are plenty of problems with both setups but i think that was a little harsh from both of ya. learn and overcome as you go.

i don't think anyone out there with a modified car is perfect by everyone elses point of view, that doesn't mean it is wrong, may not last but it doesn't mean it won't work. ****, i've got a damn plumbing elbow on my intake, it may not last but it works for now. the point is knowing what you're doing is wrong or learning from your mistakes.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely. There are several things I would have done differently if I had the chance, but hindsight is 20/20 and I was under at time crunch (only had the winter to complete the project and everyone including me wanted to see it work...well, everyone else wanted to see it fail...).

The NA ECU is still valid as far as I am concerned but of course there are better ways if you want to use larger turbos and make mower power. I never did have a problem running stock timing though. The frame I've covered before and it's something I will certainly not do again since there are better options. NEver did have a problem wit the oil drain besides the fact that it kept breaking due to it being crappy rubber. The new drain is stainless but ends up at the same location.

Actually as I recall there were multiple threads and even a poll (that got fairly heated) predicting horrible failure.

ErixHvn

First of all thanks for showing interest in this thread. I appreciate your participation.

88integraLS, Only reason I wont jump on your car is that Florida heat get's pretty nasty w/out AC and I'd definitely like to retain it. Thanks for getting me excited about getting back into my RX. BTW, Where did you get the pulley for the crank? Do you happen to have the dimensions of the SC shaft? Might adapt a different pulley if I cant find one to retain the original on the SC? Cant wait to get my Lysholm. Did you ever run your setup w/ the SC attached but not belted just to see how well the engine ran if the belt broke? Your setup of the secondary plates being retained in the stock TB made me wonder if a port actuator could have been used to open during boost. Man, I wish you'd have kept on going with your proj. Maybe one of these days we could run them together just to compare. Did you keep pics of your pulley setup? Would you pls. send them to me if you did?

GTU Fan, One thing that I learned from past experience is to ADAPT, PERSEVERE, OVERCOME. And that they've been words for me to live by. Hence this project.

Aaron, As for the RTek, I've been informed by their rep that V2 for an S4 NA is under development and should be out sometime in the next 6 months or so. Don't know if I can wait that long. As for the other comment, I'd say ignore it. If I listened and believed half the people that tell me what can't be done, I wouldn't get **** done at all. Winning is always for those who DARE. Just coz it started out a hack job doesn't mean it will end up that way.

Spoke to Kevin Landers of Rotary Resurrection yesterday. Awesome dude to talk to. Great sounding board for unbiased info. Will tell you according to his own actual experience as an Rx engine builder.

Next step will be finding out from Vortech about their FMU and Whipple engineers bypass systems before deciding on whether or not to go this route. What does a stock FPR allow the TII pump to push pressure-wise btw? And it's rate of rise? if that's the correct term for it. Will try to match it pretty close to TII specs with the Vortech if not a little more on the rich side just to be safe.

Lastly, The FD pump I bought off ebay sucks, The outlet nipple is cracked 1/2" from the tip. Inside, Theres some kind of plastic thingie that looks like it could break off anytime and plug up the works. No way I'm risking sending my project prematurely to RX heaven just yet. Will keep looking for another FD fuel pump. Anyone with one that's not damaged they want to sell?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I have a perfectly good FD pump but I want to keep it for future use. They're easy to find if you visit the FD parts area.

The TII pressure regulator dramatically raises pressure under boost but I don't know the exact rate. Haynes manual says it can go as high as 90 PSI, but I don't necessarily believe that.

ErixHvn

Checked with UPS for delivery and I'm supposed to have the blower in by tomorrow. Cant wait.
Next step would be to work out a suitable mounting location w/out moving too many stock parts out of the way other than the air pump and associated gear. Hope it doesn't get too tight in the passenger side of the engine compartment.

If it fits that location then the rest would fall into place. I'd like that very much.

88IntegraLS

I'd put some form of heat shield between the charger and your header if you're really going to mount it on the passenger side. Lysholm chargers have very tight internal tolerances (which is part of why they kick *** so hard compared to roots blowers) and will seize up if the case gets distorted. I found this out when I was testing the first iteration of my mount bracket which had studs for the charger to fit over. They were just a little off center from the charger mounting holes which caused the case to distort ever so slightly. Suffice to say the charger wouldn't turn when it was mounted!

So be careful with mounting it there. Pay attention to the immense level of waste heat that gets dumped out the side of a rotary engine, right below your super awesome but somewhat sensitive Lysholm charger.

Superchargers rock.

NZConvertible

It's a simple 1:1 regulator just like all stock FPRs. Fuel pressure rises in line with boost pressure. The manual doesn't say the reg goes to 90psi, it says if you dead-head the pump (i.e. zero flow) you should get that.


(****...I pressed "Edit" when I meant to press "Quote" and broke your post. I think I fixed it. Sorry about that...Aaron)

ErixHvn

I was worried about that location for other reasons like heatsoak, lube plumbing and such and now you tell me heat could distort the blower. OMG, What did I get into? Just kidding 88integraLS. Have you recieved any of my PM's?
I worried about that earlier and asked for the part that cradles the SC in the Millenia engine when I bought it. I'm hoping that, And heat wrap on the pipes would be shielding enough. Or add a heat shield, Would hate to have to mod the hood for this application but will if absolutely necessary. Didn't know that the blower casing was that flexible but thanks for the heads up.

NZ, 'Ow ya doin mate? Long ways for a Kiwi to be watching but I'm glad you're watching this too. Thanks for the info. I've sort of decided that I'll start off with the Vortech FMU for now because tuning w/diaphragm and springs would allow a wider range and the flexibility. I'll start w/ an 8:1 rate (8lbs rise/1psi boost) hope that will be a good place to start. Wont know until I attach a wideband though.

BTW, Has anyone used one of these A:F monitors on this page?Rotary performance AF monitor Is this type sensitive enough for this kind of tuning? Or maybe one of these? AEM uego wideband Would this be enough to do the job? I really hope one of these would because at this time an LC-1 might be out of range of the wallet. Where's the best place to go for an LC-1 anyway?

Also looks like I'll be in the market for an RB header. Do these come with a bung for the O2 sensor? Otherwise I might just have to tune it with the old exhaust on until I get the headers.

NZConvertible

Personally I have a very low opinion of rising-rate FPR's, which is basically what a FMU is. ("Fuel management unit" is a very misleading name.) They're just crude band-aids for undersized injectors. If you have a set of injectors properly sized for the power you're making, then a linear-rate FPR is fine.

All a RR-FPR does is jack up the fuel pressure to much higher than normal levels to squeeze more fuel through the injectors. You still have to have a pump that's capable of flowing providing this pressure at the required flow, and the higher the pressure called for, the less flow the pump can provide.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Ah, that makes much more sense. I wish that manual was a little clearer sometimes. In the specifications, it just list something like "Fuel pressure (turb): 35-90 PSI".

ErixHvn

What do you guys think of the AEM uego wideband for tuning? Will it work for what I'm doing? Do they work in conjunction w/ standalone ecu's as a sensor? or is it just an indicator for tuning?

NZ, I will be using the FD pump to upgrade the fuel system as well as the FMU.
Are you familiar with how the T2 uses a relay and resistor to control the voltages sent to the pump at idle, off idle and boosted stages. I need to find out how this is controlled. Whether it's a boost controlled switch or an ecu function.

ErixHvn

My lysholm SC is finally here and I'm already finding out a few thing about it. This thing really blows. A very positive displacement, Such that I couldn't keep it from leaking air at the outlet side covering with my hand while just spinning the pulley by hand. Looks like it's still in decent shape, a little bit of noise turning but don't know if its just from the gears and bearings being dry. Will try to gravity feed some oil into the tubes later to see if it's any different.

Now I see why 88integraLS positioned his blower ithe way he did. Actually if not for the spark plugs and PS/AC would be quite the logical location for the blower just because of it's length. At this point in time I'm not so sure the passenger side of the engine bay will even accomodate the length of this SC. At least I dont see how I'd have enough room for the intake of the SC to clear the fire wall and without having to move all the AC tubing. Definitely not what I expected in terms of length.

Would have to check on the option of plan B, Which is to go with a TII UIM and position the SC on top of the engine after moving the alternator. Which brings to mind. Will the FD alternator upgrade work in the air pump location if relocated just like the stock alt? Has anyone done this before? I've tried to read everything I can about the subject of the upgrade but haven't seen anything about the relocated alt. location. Anyone?

Would like to see how 88integraLS did his intake into the blower in his application. I am desperate for some ideas short of having to fab a complete intake elbow for the blower. Anyone have pics of how he did it?

ErixHvn

desperate to find out if S4 TII , S5 TII UIM will work with an S4 NA LIM. Also about the interchangeability of the Fuel rails from S4 to S5. Any difference in the UIM's that would affect the change of the fuel rails? Any pics of the s4 and s5 uim's?

The UIM change is to position the SC and the S5 rails for the pulse dampener reliabilty and increased flow. Some help here? Please?

88IntegraLS

Only $995 and you even get a spare charger.

Dom_C

you cannot interchange the upper intake manifolds between n/a and turbo. You have to use the whole setup. Upper and Lower. It's too bad you're keeping your a/c and p/s. It would be alot easier without those two ammenities(sp)
Dom

ErixHvn

I know 88integraLS, It has however become an excercise in perseverance that I might wind up having regrets later. Otherwise I'd jump on it. How did you connect the intake of the SC to the TB? did you build an intake elbow here? Coz if you did I might wanna buy yours or get you to make another one for me for a reasonable price. Got any pics?

Dom is right, It would be a hell of a lot easier w/ out the AC as I dont have the PS in the Sport model but man that means hot Florida summers will bake me to the seats. Things are uncomfortable enough for me as it is, It would be too much without AC. Moving the AC compressor might be another option but by then it probably mean that it would be cheaper to do a TII swap. Not about to give up anytime soon though.

This project has taken in a life of it's own, I'm completely obsessed with finding a way to do it and keep as many of the stock parts in its original location. The next possible action would be to move the AC lines to allow the SC in the passenger side of the bay. Will check all the clearances later tomorrow.

BTW, Didn't get the SC cradle that I was expecting but got a lot of peripheral junk that was on the millenia. Seem like Mazda decided to have a very complicated bypass system for the Millenia intake. I've always thought that Mazda engineers need to be schooled more in the KISS method of doing things. But then again who am I to criticize.

NZConvertible

I'm just not sure why you want to add a FMU instead of just replacing the stock FPR with an aftermarket adjustable one, or even swapping on a Turbo FPR (if that's possible, not sure). By having variable pressure differential across the injectors all you're doing is adding another unnecessary tuning variable. A 550/720 injector combo can provide more than enough fuel for your desired 6-8psi boost at stock fuel pressure (36-37psi static). The extra pressure is just not needed.

Very familiar.

It's just a simple 2-speed system controlled by the ECU based on an airflow reading. The pump gets full battery voltage at high load and when cranking, and reduced voltage at low load and idle.

The S4 NA ECU doesn't have this function so I wouldn't worry about it. It's not their for performance reasons, it's just to reduce pump noise at low load and increase pump lifespan.

88IntegraLS

Ah the infamous TB to SC inlet adapter pipe. That is a brutal piece to have to fabricate. Get ready to persevere.



I'm sure you could make out of something other than sheet metal but I wouldn't trust fiberglass or carbon fiber down under the hood unless it was made with modern prepreg oven cured techniques. Fiberglass parts made using the wet lay-up method (how I made my bumper fascia) are flammable.

ErixHvn

Thanks for the pic 88integraLS, Man that does look brutal. I'm thinking of having the flange made then have them weld an elbow of some sort coming out the side. Might allow me to keep the stock TB and keep the BAC functional. That would be so cool not having to worry about the AC killing the idle if this works. Did you just tap threads on the SC body for the oil lines?

NZ, I think you're right about the FPR. Just wanted an extra margin of safety w/ the FMU for the added enrichment. Might not need it after all.

Still wonder if the AEM uego wideband would be accurate enough to tune this setup. Anyone with this unit? How did it work?

It looks like for now the SC would be installed on top of the engine w/ a custom upper intake manifold. Relocate the alternator to the air pump location and I just might have enough room still to use the Millenia IC as a top mount maybe if a TII hood could be found for cheap.

So I checked out the Racing Beat for the intake manifold today, Their people pissed me off. Lousy attitude and just unwilling to answer a simple question. Just wanted to know if their side draft dellorto manifold would have enough width to accomodate the S4 fuel rail and injectors. Wouldn't even bother to look to find out. Will have to find out from Mazdatrix I guess. Cant believe the poor customer service at RB. Wont get my business this way. Now I'll just have to find a different brand of exhaust upgrades. SDJ's ?

Would anyone suggest a plenum going before the manifold? How big? Would it make any difference running without one, As in the carbed version? Narrowing things down to the last nitty gritty before the fabrication to find out if the Millenia IC could be used as a TMIC under a TII hood.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I've never had anything but great service from RB. They've always been extremely helpful and friendly. You probably got someone who was having a bad day.

The only Dellorto manifold that RB sells for the 2nd gen is the upper manifold that bolts onto the factory lower. The Dellorto upper will not clear the stock primary fuel rail. You'd have to custom do any fuel system with that manifold since you won't be using the side draft throttlebody that has the injector locations integrated into it.

This link will show you how to build a fuel rail:
http://www.sdsefi.com/techrail.htm

This one will show you the basics of building an intake manifold:
http://www.sdsefi.com/techinta.htm

ErixHvn

You're probably right rotarygod. Just disappoints the hell out of me when 2 of the RB staff that I talked to were either in a bad mood and didn't bother to hide it in their voice and attitudes. Not that I was some kind of *** trying to get something for free or bitching about their product but actually asking as a potential customer about a product they're supposed to be familiar with. Too bad they couldn't contain the irritation in their voices.

Guess that means I'll have to get someone to fab a custom manifold for me then. Hopefully there's a competent muffler shop willing to do this. Just where do I have to go to get a flange for the 6port intake manifold? Hope somebody other than RB has them.

I'm learning way more than I ever expected to learn on this project. Still a ways to go but hope that at the end will be something worthwhile.

NZConvertible

The stock TB wouldn't be your best choice. Its main advantage (apart from being free) is the sequential operation of the primary and secondary throttles, but unless the TB is connected to the stock internally divided manifold the sequential operation will not have any effect. Mixing of the primary and secondary flows in the supercharger mean all four intake runners will always have airflow. You will also have to make a very interesting transition to get from the large triangular TB to the supercharger intake. A 65-70mm single-blade TB off another car (or aftermarket) would make the whole job easier.

The BAC valve is not connected to the TB in any way, and could happily stay in it's stock location if you used the stock TII UIM. Even if you didn't, a solenoid valve of suitable size could be connected to each side of the TB by rubber hoses. It could be mounted on the engine or even remote-mounted on the firewall.

The Millenia uses two tiny intercoolers that I would definitely not recommend using...