Kevin,

Do we need to start name calling? I'm far from ignorant. Are you ignorant? Are you telling me you think it is a good idea to re-use turbo coolant hoses? What about all those freakin' paper gaskets in the entire intake tract? There are what, 4 of them on the turbo inlets/outlets, then the LIM and the one between the LIM and UIM? Those always break. The list goes on, your list does not include standard parts that should be replaced. That is how you get your low quote.

Re-read the above question. Answer it with $2300? Not gonna happen in a quality job.

I'm not trying to spend more money than required, I've bought FDs from people that just had motors put in them 5k miles ago, the new motor went **** up for the same reasons the old one did. Bad T-stat, old radiator, etc.

Call me ****, look at my avatar. Do it right, do it once.

 

from your standards it would be rebuilding the whole car which will cost $20k+, do as you preach and replace every component that is prone to failure otherwise you will be stuck on the side of the road with a different problem than the engine.

do those $6k rebuilds throw a radiator in the car? unfortunately that is a bad example and unlucky for you that the shop that installed it didn't notice the problem in the radiator, any knowledgable person would see the temps rising and locate and fix the problem. now you are getting into errors from mechanics, of which every single mechanic will do and saying that a $6k rebuild is going to be done right is completely false because as with everything there is room for error as no one is perfect.


ok, now i'm done.

 

Show me where I called you any name, including ignorant?

I see a common theme developing here. Your lack of reading comprehension. Please read my posts fully before responding, it will save us time.



again...NOT MY DECISION. Hey...if someone wants to replace them all, based upon my recommendation, then GREAT. IF not, then that's their business too. And if the engine dies as a result of their gamble, that's their own problem (as so stated in my warranty). OF course if I see a part that will imminently fail during my work, I let them know that they HAVE to replace it. Other than that, THE OWNER MAKES THE DECISION. How can you fault me for this?


Reading comprehension is our friend. Stated WAY above, the gasket kit I use comes with ALL the external gaskets, orings, etc. IN fact, the gaskets are the newer metal ones. You're bringing up **** that's been covered already.



I think your definition of rebuild and install varies from mine. Mine is to remove the engine, take all the externals off, focus on the block itself, put all the externals back on, and put it in. The externals are no more a part of the rebuild itself than the rearend, brake pads, or tires are. Does that mean that you shouldnt worry about replacing tires? brake pads? of course not. IT is a judgement call made by the owner, with recommendations from someone with experience, like me.



I can do it 3 or 4 times (not that it would be necessary) for the cost that you would have us do it once for.

 

They just mad they paid more thats all

In the end, rebuilds are worth 30k - 50k+ miles depending on the driver, maintenance, mods, etc. Why pay more than you have to? Reassurance? Maybe. But I say to those who paid $6k+ to have motors put in their cars, lets see a shop back it up with a warranty for, say even 25k miles. It won't happen because these cars are so random at times, it wouldn't even be worth it.

If Rotary Resurection rebuilds are under $3k and last just as long as the others, I see no reason you guys should be in his business in the first place unless you're trying to compete against him? Now I don't know whether or not they do last as long, that has to be proven yet.

 

Sounds like a pretty catchy new avatar comment to me...

-Rotary4tw

 

Oh, btw dude, your engine is almost done. I'm finishing the last intake port now, and I'll be assembling it later tonight or tomorrow.

 

I have no real way of tracking mileage or longevity since most of the time they leave and never come back. Well, you know the old saying. IF you do good work one person will tell 2 people. IF you do bad work one person will tell 10. The very lack of bad words being said is proof enough for me.

 

If you ask me this is the perfect range for long life reliability. It's too bad most people don't realize this when they blow their engines with the slightest ping.

 

And with a lot of experience comes a tendency to think there is no other way to do something because you get sold in our own beliefs. Everyone goes about there rebuilds in a different matter. You may believe it's necessary to replace a lot of perfectly reusable parts. Kevin odviously believes otherwise as well as myself. That's were all the savings comes in.

 

No offense that's just bogus. It took me a total of 8hrs my first time to R&R my engine in my Fd(an 1hr of which was wasted figuring out how to separate the clutch the first time ) . If I did it on a daily bases, I'm sure it could be done much faster. So shops are basically charging 125 - 250 per hr to do such? No wonder people hate the maintenance on these cars because people get *** raped all the damn time.

 

Shops typically arent people working out of their house. They have bills to pay such as rent, employees, lifts, tools etc.. From what I have seen the average shop charges anywhere from $1200 to $1700. Im sorry but your first time on and R&R was not eight hours unless you had 10 people helping you.

 

From what I understand the engine rebuild is priced all by itself. This leaves the engine removal, accessory removal, block tear down. Then you have the accessory replacement, and engine replacement. I take it that's what's considered R&R? Is this the price most shops are quoting for R&R? Originally I was strictly talking about the engine removal out of the engine bay and replacement as what took me 8hrs time. I did this while doing my clutch replacement. Anyways I understand that shops have bills to pay and such but, that still isn't right to charge higher than standard mechanic labor hrs for maybe 11 hrs total work for 3hrs engine removal, 2hrs accessory removal, 3hrs accessory replacement and 3 hrs engine installation. All the above is just strictly R&R labor.

11hrs times 32per hr = $352 dollars. Am I missing something?

Even if we include 4 more hrs for vacuum hose replacement in a R&R were at 15hrs and only $480 which is a hell of a ways away from $1000-$2000 grand.

Could you be so kind as to post the pricing break down for a typical R&R just like Kevin did with his engine rebuilds? This should be interesting as the *** rapings need to stop.

 

Real shops pay the mechanic a wage, maybe even benefits like insurance, sick time, vacation, 401K, etc and need to make some $$ to pay for the shop, insurance, etc.

Kevin is pricing a rebuilt motor and labor to put it in, I believe that is an honest price. People call me **** or conservative but in my mind all the "externals" of the motor are still part of the engine. The motor won't run without them. It doesn't really matter if the rebuild is a good quality rebuild when you don't even put new plugs in it.

You might call it *** raping, I call it stupid, putting a new motor in a car w/o basic stuff like hoses, plugs, filters, etc. I wouldn't leave it up to the customer's discretion, some stuff just needs to be done at the same time.

*** raping is when I called to get a quote on rotors for my M3 and they said $600. A 30 sec google search showed a source that sold new *OEM* rotors for $219 shipped! The other guys were in it to make $400 for no value add.

Hey I'm not making a penny from any of this discussion, nor do I know anyone that is.

 

From what I know R&R hours are not actual clock hours. Most shops obtain a book that gives the R&R time allowed for a specific job. Some shops will tack on additional time for "special circumstances" even though it could be completed in the allotted time or often in less time.
I feel the way of thinking for some shops/shop owners dictate the cost of their work... some may say "I'm happy if I can make enough to buy a loaf of bread" while other may say "I'm happy if I can make enough bread to buy a loft" That's just my opinion.

 

I somewhat agree, and somewhat disagree with this view. You're talking about "standard mechanic labor", as in joe's corner garage that does tire and muffler work, and tune ups. You're comparing apples to oranges here, when comparing that guy and his rate of work, to a rotary specialist. Honestly...would you let "bubba" at "joe's corner garage" do the R&R on your FD engine, and expect it to be right when reinstalled? HELL NO. So you can't sit there and say that whoever DOES do the work on your FD, and is expected to get it right, should make the same money that bubba does.

There are certain fields in life that get paid "for what you know, not what you do". Not to sound conceited, but I think I should make a bit more than bubba per hour/per job, just because of what I know about this specialized field of work.

OR, another way of looking at it, is that if you pay bubba his $350 for 11 hours of work on your FD, you'll then have to pay him another $500 for going back in and repairing what he screwed up the first time. So why not pay the rotary specialist his 800-1000 the first time and be done with it.

 

Just to stir the pot a little, here's a testimonial for all you "new part freaks" (one never has to look far to find them). Just think...this dude probably spent 3, 4, or 5 grand getting this block built...and look what happened. True, we dont know the whole story. But, at least he'd feel a bit better about it if he only had 2 grand into the build...

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=506110

 

Most will get the same pay rate that "bubba" does when employed by a shop. Dealer service departments make a KILLING on labor, probably the highest R&R on the planet, but do you know how much their mechanics make per hour? Only a small fraction of the cost of the R&R they perform. Being employed by a specialist, you might make a little more.

Because most of the time, it's never "the first time and be done with it" especially with our cars. Example, David Hayes and Pettit Racing.

 

True, but you stand a better chance with it getting done right by a rotary specialist than you do with bubba or you and your friends out in the back yard (not specifically you, but most DIY FD repair jobs dont go as well as the owner planned).

 

Agreed!

Kevin, I called you on Friday and left you a voicemail. Would you PM me or get a hold of me for costs of possibly rebuilding my engine?

Thanks.

Mike

 

Kevin ,it looks like you have experience and honesty.If i ever need a rebuild you will be the first person that i call.Keep up the good work.

 

I just think people need to be realistic in what they expect with the whole rebuild process (when having their own engine rebuilt). If the first engine in the car lasted 110k miles, it's not realistic to expect th rebuild to last just as long without going with 100% new parts.

Does that mean using Used Parts is bad? No, as long as you have the proper expectation for what you are getting and it fits what you are needing. For me, I'll be happy if I can put 25-30k miles on my rebuild. For me, that would be about 4-5 years worth of use including a lot of track time. Considering that my RX-7 is not a "race car", but a "track car"; I didn't select to use new housings. However, I did lap the side housing and other work (porting, ceramic coatings, etc). Most of the other components around the engine have been replaced as well as replacing just about every bolt/nut I've come across. It has not been cheap, but that was my choice.


Also, it's not realistic expecting to get the same rates for labor between a place that has a large shop, 6 bays/lifts, and many employees as you will from someone who has turned their garage into a shop (btw, I have no idea what facilities Kevin has and I'm not saying this is how he does his work, or that this is something bad.. it's just something to illustrate a point). The larger shop is going to have more overhead to handle which will be reflected in their pricing. However, their benefit is typically being able to work you in quicker.

You don't always get good, quick, and cheap all at the same time when it comes to rebuilds.

Some people have more time than money, other more money then time. Luckily we have quite a few places around the USA to fit most people's criteria.

 

Yeah, you're missing something. Like the fact that even cheap mechanics charge $70-80/hour. At least in any shop I've ever seen (even in the midwest).

My engine builder/mechanic charges ~$100/hour. That's what he has to charge in the Bay Area of California to make a living. He's not raping anyone.

 

Speaking just for myself and several others, the FIRST thing I do when I get a 'new' seven is replace all belts, hoses, filters, wires, fluids, and plugs. Then, if it still has issues, it's Kevin's turn, he'll help me over the phone or email. If it's rebuild time, he's not gonna replace brand new parts with *more* brand new parts just to make sure it'll last, that's just stupid. If there's a problem with an external part, he'll usually throw in a good, used one he has in the shop or call me to let me know I need said part.

This saves him time and the customer money and hassle.

 

That's not what the guys were saying (i.e. replace good/new parts again). The original poster has a car with everything original at 109k miles. Obviously a lot of stuff should be replaced when the engine is built or replaced. That costs is not going to be cheap.

If you look at just reconditioning the fuel system:

* Injectors cleaned/flow balanced (about $100 depending on the place)
* Fuel recall kit to replace the o-rings and hose connections to the rails (about $80)
* Fuel thermosensor (about $60)
* Fuel Pulsation Damper (about $120)
* Misc parts that aren't in the recall kit ($30)

(I rarely hear about FPR problems so I wouldn't change it out unless it was necessary) While some might reuse some of those parts, at 109k miles, I definitely would not (and didn't on my rebuild and my parts don't have as many miles). That's not a lot of money up there, but when you add that onto R&R and rebuild costs, it starts adding up.

 

i just want to say that I hold much respect for many of the posters in this thread and I dont want to see it get negative and personal as it started to... we are all on the same team in the end and lively debate is what gets the rotary community as a whole to a better place, but going to the negative angle doesnt help anyone... both jeff and kevin are experienced guys, lets take both perspectives and make a better path based on what the individual needs are, keep in mind its all relative to the needs of the projetct. I come from a perspective in the middle...im a bit **** like jeff, i get a little extream even on simple things... on the other hand, im not rich either and managing a street FD and a track FD is not cheap.... so kevins solutions are attractive for certain purposes. there are SO many apects to what makes an engine reliable that i dont think its realistic to put much weight on that in this thread. The engien build is only a small part of it, there is tuning, sub systems health (injectors, ignition, et), user knowledge (oil changes, correct spark plugs, et), usage (track, or street, or garage, et ,et).

Anyway, my take is that I see a nice combination of what I wanna do with my engines and what kevin does to keep it affordable.