It all comes down to what you decide to replace vs reusing. By 50k miles or less, rotor housings are usually junk and you motor rebuilder know the area of wear I am basing this statement on, the rotor apex seal grooves are out of spec atthe top of the groove, side housings may or may not need to be relapped to return to spec, bearings may or may not be out of spec but gotta measure both the bearing and the journal to be spot on, side seals have frret marks on one side and are angled on the other side plus the spec clearance between them and the corner seals are alway off from spec, oil seal o-rings and all springs are impossible to determine to be equivalent to "new", it just goes on and on. Can most of this be reused and have the motor run well, well sure it can. Will it be good as new, no way but depending on the part and the wear it may be hard to tell the difference from new. Much of the above won't blow a motor directly but may reduce compression a small bit and increase blowby to the crank or between combustion chambers or promote carbon buildup or higher wear. Biggest problem imho is the blowby between combustion chambers that leads to hotspots and a slight loss in power, is this significant, who knows.

I have always erred on the "replace anything questionalbe" side but I also do my own work which keeps cost somewhat in check. Is it always value added, not my first rebuild. The big intank fuel pump failed and took out my nice new rotors and rotor housings not to mention my turbine. Every rebuild I have done after that has received just a bit less conservatism but not much less. Bottom line, pick a rebuilder based on his/her philosophy and reputation or do it yourself, after that it costs what it costs. Won't be the last time you rebuild it unless you sell the car.

 

How could you say this when we all know that rotarys will easily last over 200k and still have decent compression? Used rotor housings can and still are able make compression in the 100psi and up region. If parts are still well with-in spec, I see no reason why the average Joe can rebuilt the engine and still have a decent service life. Hell the average person here is going to blow the rebuild anyways for reasons not even related to the engine itself but due to the other issues than cause the problem to the engine. I would hate to be the guy that spend a **** load of money on a rebuild using all the new parts and still running into a situation that can blow the engine whether it's built with new parts of used parts.

 

How could you say this when we all know that rotarys will easily last over 200k and still have decent compression? Used rotor housings can and still are able make compression in the 100psi and up region. If parts are still well with-in spec, I see no reason why the average Joe can rebuilt the engine and still have a decent service life. Most people never take into consideration how many miles they expect out of the rebuild. Hell the average person here is going to blow the rebuild anyways for reasons not even related to the engine itself but due to the other issues than cause the problem to the engine. I would hate to be the guy that spend a **** load of money on a rebuild using all the new parts and still running into a situation that can blow the engine whether it's built with new parts of used parts. New parts don't guarantee anything. IMHO

 

my point exactly

 

This is the answer to the original poster's question. Less than $3k and it'll run but for how long???

 

most rotor housings are about half worn at that point, they still have plenty of life left unless they were harshly abused in which case no motor is going to last a good long while, even brand new rotor housings if they see an hour of redlining per day everyday.

 

In a modded FD application figure on 30-50k miles. Which is exactly what all the other >$3k engines last in the same situation. What's your point? The whole "rebuild longevity" argument is pretty much a moot point with these cars.

I just tore apart a 5k mile judge ito motor due to a coolant seal failure. Part was an assembly issue, there were also 2 irons with cracked water jackets. New rotorhousings, all new seals.

Last year this time I got a KDR core with 3k miles on it, blown apex seals, new rotorhousings, all new seals.

Ive had a 4k mile marvelspeed core, new housings, all new seals, cracked apex seals and also had a smoke problem.

I've taken apart NUMEROUS mazda remans with <20k miles on them due to coolant seal failures or apex seal breakage. OF course they claim these get new housings and seals, too.

In 2005 I built 47 engines and in 2004 I built 48. Many were for modded FD's. Of those, 3 have come back under warranty...2 of them were 87-8 turbo blocks that broke the rear iron at the dowel casting due to hard launches/detonation on modded setups, and the third was a turbo engine that got grenaded when the owner mistakenly turned the timing up 20-some degrees advanced from base (the entire car was brought to me, and that is what I found when checking it).

 

I'm not questioning your quality of work. Most shops that have good reps then get a few complaints because the original founder had to start running a business and get out of the shop. When you put a motor in a 109K mile car it is just smart IMHO to replace all the coolant hoses. It is so simple and relatively cheap to do with the motor out. I wouldn't even put a motor in a car if someone wanted to save that money.

I also would put a new clutch in the car unless the current clutch was pretty close to new, again it is too easy to replace with the motor is out, labor is free!

I wouldn't put a motor in an older FD unless the owner would pay to get the injectors checked out, again it just isn't worth the risk.

Those 3 items add up pretty quickly. $100 for the injectors, $170 for the hoses minimum, $300 for the clutch. There is another $570 on top of your quote.

Of course there are the tight asses, a buddy of mine was paid to put a USED stock clutch disc in a FD. What a freakin of time and money. I guarantee you that owner will end owning a POS FD and over time he'll hate the damn thing.

What does it cost for parts to do a rebuild? This is just to settle the math in my mind, I'm just not seeing how it adds up for you.

Be specific,

1. Internal parts (rotor housings, rotors, coolant seals, apex seals, side seals, springs, oil pump, bearings, etc). Give me a typical list, not a extremely cheap or extremely expensive rebuild.

2. External gaskets (exhaust gaskets, OMP o-ring, intake manifold gaskets, injector seals, etc).

3. Services (rotor lapping, bearing press, flywheel surfacing, etc).

4. Minimum external parts (thermostat, plugs, oil filter, oil, coolant, etc).

5. I'm sure I left something out, add in the typical misc stuff.

I'm just not seeing how you can put a motor in a car including rebuild, parts and R+R labor for $2300.

FYI I bought all my parts at Mazdacomp pricing, I don't think you are getting parts any cheaper than that are you?

Jeff

 

You say the math doesnt add up for you. No wonder it doesnt...you can't even read the math I posted already. What you've asked for is exactly what I already posted...go read my last couple of posts.

I'm done with this. I'm not going to take time and sit here and post every nickel and dime just to appease your curiosity. I've already explained it. You can keep believing that it cant be done for <6 grand, and I will continue doing it for <3.

IT just bothers me that there are still those in the community so hopelessly ingrained in their own misinformed beliefs that they refuse to accept the proof put right in front of them.

 

Well I've avoided getting into this since we've been down this road before, but.....

With the tools now available to us, there is no reason why motors should only last 30-50k miles. We now have wideband o2 sensors, EGT sensors, water injection, more tuning knowledge, etc. We have addressed cooling issues with these cars as well, extending the life of coolant seals.

To me, a $3k rebuild should only be done in these situations:

- the owner doesn't have a lot of cash and is just looking to get the car running again

- the owner is a drag racer or similar and will be regularly tearing down the motor anyway


For any other situation, I personally think it's STUPID to not replace worn parts, especially rotor housings. The problem is that the vast majority of current owners want to eke out the maximum performance of these engines without paying for it. Or they want to push the envelope. I just had my car tuned by Steve Kan. It is tuned for below 11:1 AFR at 15 psi (91 octane). Would the car make more power if it was tuned a little leaner? Yep. Would the chance of detonation increase exponentially if the car was leaner? Yep.

Fast, cheap, reliable -- pick two. Or in the FD's case, pick one.

 

You didn't prove anything, ballparking pricing is what you did.

You don't want to get specific because it'll all add to show something isn't being done correctly or your "base price" rebuild just gets optioned up to a dollar amount that shows it'll cost more than $3k.

It bothers me that people continue to say you can put a motor in a FD for $2300, parts AND labor. Sure Mazda is making money selling remans, $2600 sounds like the current bottom dollar on one. Are they making 200-300% margin on them? I don't think so. Apparently you can undercut that by 50-60%, then you can add in the intake and exhaust gaskets, turbo return line oil seals, exhaust studs that break, turbo exhaust gaskets, clutch, etc, etc, etc. and still make $25-30hr for ~34 hrs ($850-1000 labor). Ooops, it doesn't add up.

The bummer for you is someone with experience is disputing your pricing. The way I see it with parts prices, there is no way you can do a complete job for your quoted number.

 

Well, if he's built 95 engines @ <$3K each in a two year period and none have come back that were from shoddy craftsmanship, he has to be doing something right... can we all agree on that?

 

Remember the question was an engine installed in a car. No doubt you can build an engine for <$3K.

 

Keep talking, you're digging a hole.

OF the engines I built in '05, 15 were installs. Of those 15, only 3 exceeded total cost of $3000. 2 of those were complete NA to turbo conversions in 2nd gen cars, including all the drivetrain, engine, and electrical parts, so that's really a different ballgame. The third was an FD that had *2* bad rotors and *2* bad rotorhousings which required replacement, and drove the cost way up.

 

Why $1000 to pull and reinstall? I've seen it done for as little as $600. And maybe $250-300 the tear down and rebuild. Maybe labor in the south is just dirt cheap...

 

Hell, fine then. I didnt want to post this stuff in public since my pricing is supposed to remain private, but I will PROVE that you are wrong, and then I will expect a full apology/admittance of that fact.

The installation options are left SOLELY up to the customer...there is a large list of items posted on my site on the installation page recommending maintenance items get checked or replaced, like: turbos rebuilt, hose job, check valves, thermostat, clutch, hoses, belts, waterpump, injectors cleaned, etc. But I DO NOT FORCE them to do these things if they dont want to or cant afford to. What they elect to do or not to do is solely their decision. I do not sell or supply those maintenance parts or services for them either; if they want it done, they bring it to me and I install it for free. Doesnt matter to me one way or another, I'm making no more or less money regardless of how they choose to maintain their car. IT is unfair for you to attempt to make me look bad because I do not automatically perform these maintenance items during installations and require the customer to pay for things they may or may not have needed.

Here's the stuff that normally goes into a standard $1500 FD shortblock build plus $800 base install. That $1500 price assumes that the 11 essential core parts, rotors, housings, irons, shaft, gears and front cover, are all reuseable. And if that is not the case, the price goes up on a per-part basis, depending on the replacements selected...used rotors $200 or so, used housings $200-300 depending on wear, new housings more.

apex seals $198
apex springs $21.90
corner seal springs $24.60
front main seal $3.45
rear main seal $5.75
thermal pellet replacement $8
FD gasket kit (includes internal coolant seals, dowel orings, tension bolt seals, external orings, external gaskets up to downpipe) $399
solid cornerseals $54
viton oil control rings $29.95
oil filter $2.50
shipping for parts $20
coolant $8
oil $12

Parts reused (other than rotors, housings, etc.) are oil springs, oil oring carriers, side seals, and side seal springs. And sometimes cornerseals, depending on the build and budget. But even if you factor in my pricing for those parts you are looking at no more than $200 extra to replace every seal and spring in the engine. So total parts cost will never exceed $1000 for my builds, with exception to special seals, new housings, etc.

Do the math, big boy. Parts costs come out to right around $800...just like I said. Then you add in the labor at the hours I listed above for rebuild plus install, and it comes out to 2300, just what I said.

Oh, and for the others that might jump in and say "oh, you shouldnt reuse rotorhousings, you should lap the irons, blah blah". Well, for just a minute, I'll sit aside the debate over the face value of those comments, and we'll assume they are true, even though that may not be the case. The customer has the option to put new housings in the build. OR to use whatever kind of seals they want. OR to go with cermet resurfaced rotorhousings. OR to go with a 3mm seal setup. There are set prices in place for all of this. Some of it hasnt made it up on the site yet, but things are in the works.

Bottom line, I guess the biggest thing different about what I do versus what other big name shops do, is I GIVE THE CUSTOMER CONTROL over the costs, the parts used, and the level of performance. I don't just say "I wont build an engine with any used parts, that's gonna cost you 4 grand, have a nice day". I look at what they bring me, I evaluate the stuff based on my experience and I report to them my recommendations and we compare that to their budget. THEY make the final choices as to what makes it into their build or not.

I can't WAIT to hear the next argument...maybe this will shut some mouths, for a few minutes anyway.

 

Call the major RX-7 shops and see what they charge for that. Its well over $1000 and usually closer to $2k.

Jason

 

I usually do remove/install for $800 and bump it up to $1000 in times of high demand.

 

and replacing those damn rats nest vacuum lines is a pain in the ***....

but really.. even a rebuild with brand new rotor housings shouldn't exceed $4k, what are they replacing for a motor to cost $6500? better be brand new everything.



more importantly would be to round up some of those customers of each a pricey full rebuild and those who have cheaper rebuilds done and see who is happier.

 

Good, now we have some numbers my point comes through loud and clear, you are reusing the plugs, plug wires, coolant hoses (even the turbo coolant hoses), turbo exhaust gaskets, intake mainfold gasket, oil metering lines, etc, etc, etc. ALL that sort of crap should be replaced.

We also see it is your "base rebuild" then when you find the 109K mile rotor or housings out of spec the price goes up. Your base price $2300 just IS NOT going to be a good job for a car like that. PERIOD.

This is *not* an effort to make you look bad, it is an effort to say, "hey you want a rebuilt motor put in your car, it'll probably end up costing $4K+, even from Kevin".

 

and i like to call people like you "****"


yes, most of those parts should be changed but by visuaully inspecting them you can often tell whether they are going to fail soon or not for a while down the road. i wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing that i charged someone $5k to replace a ton of unnecessary parts that didn't need to be replaced, now i have no problem replacing them for someone that asks so that they have peace of mind knowing that everything is new, it is all relative to what each and everyone can afford, it doesn't mean either will wind up being less reliable but you are just trying to nitpick that a new hose won't have a pinhole in the manufacturing process and fail within 10 miles of the install, in fact i have seen more mismanufactured parts than i would like to count.


both sides have valid points but in the end, there is nothing wrong with trying to save some money. those who want to save money can but may roll the dice, even with new parts you roll the dice because the parts are made by humans and machines so there is a % of error involved and i personally do not go under each and every part with a magnifying glass or i wouldn't make but pennies nor would most anyone else do it. i doubt most builders would turn down a rebuild where someone wanted new rotor housings, hoses, etc but as i said, there is nothing wrong with reusing some parts that still have miles left on them.

if you want to drop the money may as well redo the brakes with new calipers, new tranny, new rearend, new brake pads, new interior, new paint, new electrical. all of those parts are prone to failure so lets quit kicking this poor horse, these cars have miles on them and what is wrong with trying to get more out of "used" parts? our cars are full of them...........

 

I think we have a severe reading comprehension issue here.

Let's try this again:



rarely are parts out of spec enough to warrant discarding them in favor of new. IT is more a judgement call based on prior experience...something you apparently have little of (in the area of judging condition of internals) or otherwise you wouldnt be making these comments. Generally the only reason I will have to replace rotors or housins is due to apex seal damage, and the only reason to replace irons is due to warpage or a coolant seal jacket crack.



WRONG. The average cost for this job with me is $2500, and that is only because the engine brought to me has already blown apex seals.

Man, what the f**k is the deal with you people? DONT YOU REALIZE, I AM TRYING TO HELP YOU!? OR are you all just so stupid that you WANT to pay ignorantly high prices for repairs?

Screw it. Go pay whatever you want to pay for this work, if it makes you sleep better at night to *think* that you got a better job done. Doesnt matter, in 30-50k miles you'll be back again, and the shop owner is laughing at you all the way to the bank.

 

edited my post, got a little overzealous, heh. ^

 

Some of these people act like I am trying to convince them to put a v8 in their rx-7, as if I'm trying to push some inherent evil upon them. I'm only here to help. Before I came along, it truly was impossible to get this work done for <$3500.

 

people will bitch that a price is too high and people will think that a price too low is impossible to be done reliably, let it go Kevin. i'm done trying to explain it.