Ok now this answer makes more since to me. I'm just one of those guys that likes to know where his money goes when it's handed it over to someone else to do work for me.

 

I'm not trying to compare apples to oranges, just trying to understand the process. Also I'm talking R&R here. It doesn't take a rotary specialist to pull and remove accessories from a rotary engine. I'm not a trained rotary specialist however, I do know how to read a shop Manuel. If we were talking about pulling and engine from a Porche, then I would easily understand a price jump.

 

You're full of it if you think the old school mechanic at allen's repair shop at the corner of 4th and main will be able to accurately remove and reinstall your FD's engine, removing and reinstalling all the wiring, hoses, solenoids, components, etc. if he's never done it before. He's used to working on a v8 with a throttlebody and intake manifold, maybe 2 vacuum hoses, and a wiring harness with about 5 plugs on it. And to him, that is "complex, new-fangled computer controlled fuel injection".

And you're going to trust the $20/hr mechanic with your FD.



Alrighty then...

 

>>You're full of it if you think the old school mechanic at allen's repair shop at the corner of 4th and main will be able to accurately remove and reinstall your FD's engine,

he is right, i know by experience.... the majority of repair shops will make the car worse that it went in.

 

You know you really do have a way with rubbing people the wrong way. First off when did I ever say anything about some old school mechanic? I gave a generalized amount for labor in an attempt to understand the fees for R&R. Then you chime in here with comments like "Your full of it". You brought up the Joe blow mechanic **** up not me. Stop making this personal because we have a slight disagreement. I find it funny that you would bash another forum member for having a reading comprehension problem when you yourself have the problem also.

And to answer your question, No I don't feel the average mechanic would be able to successfully pull the Fd engine without having any problems. I'm not naive to this fact as we all know that you can't even trust the Mazda mechanics.

 

>>I'm not naive to this fact as we all know that you can't even trust the Mazda mechanics.

AMEN BROTHA!!!

 

Thx for the input! I never realized that things were that expensive in different parts of the country.

 

Guess it's just my way. Oh well. I have to get your attention somehow.



Aside from dealer trained mechanics, what else is there? Midas? Around these parts, you have 4 choices: dealer, specialist, tire/muffler shop with mechanics, or corner garage. The latter 2 are going to be relatively old school guys that were brought up on carbureted v8s. When they troubleshoot fuel injection they call the parts store, have them run a component by, they throw it on, and if it doesnt fix the problem, they send it back and try something else. I have literally seen this at work several times.



Who's making it personal? What did I say that bothered you this time? Did you get your wittle feelings hurt over something I said?



Show me where you come up with that...



FINALLY, WE REACH THE MAIN POINT, A LOGICAL AND CORRECT CONCLUSION. Thank you!

 

I know Kevin (Rotary Resurrection) and he builds a very solid motor. He's honest and always is good on his word. Do a search and look at his customer feedback, it's great.
You don't get that kind of feedback doing lousey work or lying about costs.

 

I'm not trying to damage Kevin's rep at all. If you surf around on his site even he makes reference to other componets that need to be replaced (that I mentioned also) and the warranty ramifications if you don't replace them. His list isn't really all that different than mine.

I'm not a new part freak I just think the "regular" stuff should be replaced while the motor is being built. Labor is basically free on most of it so it is just parts cost only.

I agree, if you just replaced the hoses, belts and filters don't do it again 5k miles later. If it has been 50k miles or 14yrs, go ahead and save the headache and replace the usual suspects.

 

and what is so hard about this??

 

Which part...are you asking what is so hard about doing the work, or what is so hard about understanding that most mechanics can't?

 

pulling an FD engine. And why a mechanic couldn't do it???

 

Pulling it, probably not a big deal, but most "regular" mechanics would still be uncomfortable working around them. Tearing the accessories off and then **getting it all back together properly, with no vacuum leaks, boost leaks, unplugged or broken wires, or fuel leaks** would very likely be a different story.

 

sounds like a problem with the mechanic...that's poor choice to "slap" something back together. A good mechanic with reading skills and a manual should be able to do the work just fine.

 

There are probably some rotary specialist who can't do that either... or at least chew gum at the same time.

 

Thx this is exactly my point. I've had avaiation maintenence training in college and have certificates in aircraft repair. Even in that field you have manuals that give you step by step intructions on how to properly repair the air craft. It's no different from any car IMHO. To this day I'm still not a certified mechanic of any sort.

When I was in the power plant protion of the class, we had a rebuild assignment. We had to remove the engine from the air craft, all it's accessories, and tear down the engine for rebuild. Every part was measured and inspected. The engine was then reassembled and put back on the air craft to be started an run. Now I'm not trying to brag on myself but my project engine was removed, rebuilt, and replaced back on the aircraft. Keep in mind that this was the very first time I have ever dissassembled any piston engine for rebuild purposes. When I tuned the key, the prop rotated 2 times and the engine fired up immidiately and ran perfectly smooth. My instructor said and I Quote " In the 10 yrs I have been an instructor for this course, never have I ever seem a student's rebuild fire up so fast and run so smoothly without any problems". Now keep in mind I personally feel that the inner workings of a piston engine are more complicated than the rotary. Because I was able to read the manual, I was able to perform the task with basic mechanic knowledge. IMHO any mechanic worth their weight in salt should be able to do the same.

 

Just to chime in about the aircraft mechanic comment - getting an A&P and a service manual by no means, or any stretch of the imagination, qualifies you to work on an airplane be it a GA plane or a commercial aircraft. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else with an A&P...

 

don't forget the value of truely enjoying what you are doing. the avg joe is getting paid flat pay rate 10hr even if it takes 15 and all he wants is the car out of his stall. this is how dealerships work also.
this guy also looks at the car and says "**** this is gonna suk"
the person who likes his work/vehicle will do a better job, and prob do it faster also. you are paying for a man's experience and opinion, when he says a part will fly or not you should trust him, if you don't trust his opinion why is the car/engine there to begin with?
most good mechanics could do a rebuild or an r/r job the right way but they are trying to make a living not learn a new skill set for the most part. the 35hr they spend doing it they feel like they could have billed 45-55 on other stuff and have a bigger pay check.
i will always trust the experienced guy who likes his work

 

However, the car manuals (aside from the aftermarket ones like Haynes) are designed to be a supplement to training. They really aren't designed to be the "only" source for working on the car. This is mainly why so many people have a difficult time with the 3rd Gen (as their is nothing else besides the Mazda manual).

In the aircraft industry, the manuals are designed to be the guide. There, they are not suppose to do ANY work without using the manual (so as amendments are done to the manuals, they are picked up and used).

It's not an apples to apples comparison for aircraft manuals to automotive manuals.

BTW, I'm not in the aircraft industry but I know several people who were for several years.

 

I am in the aircraft industry, and guess what, the manuals are only a supplements to...TRAINING...How do I know? I control engineering requirements, write manufacturing processes, and set-up up training. Now, an MPS supersedes what you were trained, and the engineering requirements supersedes an MPS, and you do whatever the engineering drawing calls out.

a machine is a machine...I would say you can't compare aircraft requirements to automotive requirements. The manuals pretty much read the same, because they are written with the same mind set. Get it across so someone with a high school education can understand them.

If your mechanic didn't graduate high school, bring you car some where else.

this has turned into one hell of a thread...

I paid someone to R/R a motor for my FD one time. It was an assload of money. It didn't idle right, my emissions equipment was hooked up, my linearized temp gauge box wasn't hooked up...I had to spend the next weekend tearing the car apart to fix everything this "specialist" didn't care to pick up the phone and ask questions to find out how to satisfy a customer. AND the motor blew at 13.5psi with 11.9 A:F on a dyno.



This is the only thing I found wrong upon tear down. This was the front primary injector insulator...and I now have a nice paper weight (w/ chart) conversation piece in my office with scars on the housing and bits of an apex seal embedded in the rotor directly under this improperly installed component. Is this the cause? I don't know...

In one year I spent $10k to make my FD run correctly.
$5k for a
R/R
ported Intake
replace bad coolant jackets.

and another $5k to:
replace the ruined parts
port exhaust
seals and gaskets
6 puck clutch
Flywheel and Counter weight
Balanced assembly
Lapped Irons
micro polished e-shaft
Haltech E6X
Aircraft firewall connector
Build/balance a turbo
Single Turbo conversion
BOV
Water Injection
Fuel System
Battery Relocation
Electric Air Pump
Custom Exhaust
etc...

The car has lasted twice as long, I competed in more autocross events, driven the car harder, entered a car show, and now is a lot faster.

Doesn't take a genius to work on a FD

 

That's a lot different that what the guys I know who worked in the military and at Cessna went about their business. They were specificically told to use the manual on every operation, not to do anything from memory.

They had found many cases where documentation was updated, but mechanics still did it the "old way" from memory.

Their manuals were designed to be an exact instruction; but yes, it always goes "with" training. They aren't going to hire Joe Blow off the street, hand him a manual and some tools and say "Get to work".

The problem is, people are just picking of the FD manual and trying to jump in, then complaining how it sucks. It was never designed to be used as such.

 

Yeah, I think I would feel more comfortable flying 20K+ feet from procedures followed from a written manual rather than the memory of an "expert".

 

As far as the aircraft maintenance - it's not a matter of doing things from memory. Of course, you're supposed to have the book on the table next to you as you work - that's law in civilian, and regs in military work. However, the point is that just because you took some classes and now have your A&P doesn't mean you can pick up the book, follow the pictures and instructions and successfully and reliably do aircraft maintenance.

There is a skill which gained through experience in all aspects of aircraft - or any other type of maintenance. Everything from troubleshooting, prep work for sheet metal, paint prep, proper use and type of materials to use for installing items, how to do wiring, the list is obviously endless.

As Socrates said discussed - just because you understand the physics and applications of mathematics, does that make you an exceptional musician? Or to be an exceptional musician, should you have a complete understanding of mathematics?

 

Qualified or not, the point of my post was to show that a person with modest mechanical knowledge (myself) was still able to successfully perform a rebuild because of the use of a manual. I was able to read and follow the instructions with great success.