Whos gonna go AEM over PFC
02-01-02, 06:06 PM
#51
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Originally posted by KevinK2
Jason,
2 advantages of interest to me, over the PFC, are knock control, and transition change for sequentials. about the latter ...
lowering the 4.5K transition would be a great way to even out the torque curve for high hp sequentials. Torque is even for the stock FD, but when power is increased with boost and mods, torque drops off too much by 4500 rpm, and a lower crossover is needed, say 4000 rpm. This is apparent from looking at a lot of dyno runs, like Max's old one at his web site.
Is this possible with the AEM, as you suggested on the supra site?
Jason,
2 advantages of interest to me, over the PFC, are knock control, and transition change for sequentials. about the latter ...
lowering the 4.5K transition would be a great way to even out the torque curve for high hp sequentials. Torque is even for the stock FD, but when power is increased with boost and mods, torque drops off too much by 4500 rpm, and a lower crossover is needed, say 4000 rpm. This is apparent from looking at a lot of dyno runs, like Max's old one at his web site.
Is this possible with the AEM, as you suggested on the supra site?
Ultimatly, I made 344 rwhp @ 11 psi of boost with the second turbo coming online at 4050 rpms.
Mike
02-02-02, 12:33 AM
#52
Yellow Dragon is no more
I interested in in because of Knock control, data logging, traction control, OMP control, and frankly the guy who has designed it I've heard nothing but good things about. Oh yeah and we are getting the software to interface w/ computer!
02-05-02, 06:36 PM
#53
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Hey guys, sorry I have been absent for a few days, I am moving in to a new house, and do not have Internet access as of yet, be patient, and I will answer the questions ASAP.
All of the features for the Supra are the same on the 7. You can move anything around that our ECU controlls, Turbo's, OMP, etc...
Thanks for the Support, I'll do my best to continue answering questions.
Jason.
All of the features for the Supra are the same on the 7. You can move anything around that our ECU controlls, Turbo's, OMP, etc...
Thanks for the Support, I'll do my best to continue answering questions.
Jason.
02-06-02, 06:02 AM
#55
Originally posted by spyfish007 I interested in in because of Knock control, data logging, traction control, OMP control, and frankly the guy who has designed it I've heard nothing but good things about. Oh yeah and we are getting the software to interface w/ computer!
Ken
02-06-02, 06:06 AM
#56
On my thread on "why Fd's blow up" it seems there is a consensus that it's due to over heating and detonation. How can this unit assist in helping up not blow up our engines?????
Also I know KDR will be one shop trained in tuning this complex ECU. Do you have any other rotary shops that will be trained in this ecu??
Ken
Also I know KDR will be one shop trained in tuning this complex ECU. Do you have any other rotary shops that will be trained in this ecu??
Ken
02-06-02, 09:14 AM
#57
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Ken-
In reality, I think anyone that knows how to tune could do the job. The only specialty would be knowing which alt keys gets you to the windows faster and a basic understanding of what could be done with the ecu.
Everything else really doesn't change.
Mike
In reality, I think anyone that knows how to tune could do the job. The only specialty would be knowing which alt keys gets you to the windows faster and a basic understanding of what could be done with the ecu.
Everything else really doesn't change.
Mike
02-12-02, 04:08 AM
#58
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Originally posted by RX794
One of the reasons I stated what I did above on this thread is because I've seen the windows software for the PowerFC, it's plain BADASS, the things that you can see, how it works, and how it looks(colored 3D graphs) is just awesome, unfortunately only XS has the software, can we just get an answer as to WHY?
One of the reasons I stated what I did above on this thread is because I've seen the windows software for the PowerFC, it's plain BADASS, the things that you can see, how it works, and how it looks(colored 3D graphs) is just awesome, unfortunately only XS has the software, can we just get an answer as to WHY?
-Kib
02-12-02, 05:57 AM
#59
Senior Member
I don't think that the Apex tuner software offers a lot more than Datalogit, at least nothing that the average PFC user needs. My Datalogit software will be here this week.
I would think that it would be vitually impossible to get the Apex software. You would need a "defector" on the inside at XS or someone from Japan that would pirate a copy for you.
I would think that it would be vitually impossible to get the Apex software. You would need a "defector" on the inside at XS or someone from Japan that would pirate a copy for you.
02-15-02, 02:52 AM
#61
Yellow Dragon is no more
Data logging ... log everything the ECU sees from normal stock sensors. You can also redefine inputs or use the extra inputs to datalog. Haltech has one extra input which is helpful ... but just scratches the surface. I want to datalog EGTs from both rotors to really good a good idea of what is going on in there. If you look at many big HP motors on various pistons engines this is standard practice for the big boys and I think it is a great idea. Anyway, use your imigination.
Knock control: This topic was discussed at length on the supra forum. Regardless of how sophisticated it is or isn't you can at least use the stock knock sensor unlike the PFC to dial out timing under knock. This topic is VERY lengthy and if you want to know more then I'll post the link the supra forum and let you read and we can talk more after that.
Traction control: Works by eliminating injectors pulses to reduce power and maximize traction. It works by using ABS sensors and RPM to determine if wheel spin is occuring .. if so it figures how much is acceptable and if over that it eliminates a pulse which causes such a lean mixuture that nothing is ignited when the spark plug is fired ... hence no detonation. This system is exactly what the racelogic system is if you have read about it.
Anyway having all of these in one box is REALLY nice. Have you played with the software and the customized dash displays? WOW!
Knock control: This topic was discussed at length on the supra forum. Regardless of how sophisticated it is or isn't you can at least use the stock knock sensor unlike the PFC to dial out timing under knock. This topic is VERY lengthy and if you want to know more then I'll post the link the supra forum and let you read and we can talk more after that.
Traction control: Works by eliminating injectors pulses to reduce power and maximize traction. It works by using ABS sensors and RPM to determine if wheel spin is occuring .. if so it figures how much is acceptable and if over that it eliminates a pulse which causes such a lean mixuture that nothing is ignited when the spark plug is fired ... hence no detonation. This system is exactly what the racelogic system is if you have read about it.
Anyway having all of these in one box is REALLY nice. Have you played with the software and the customized dash displays? WOW!
02-16-02, 03:15 AM
#63
Yellow Dragon is no more
03-07-02, 01:15 PM
#64
Lives on the Forum
There's a lot of crap being said in this thread; no wonder I never come in here. 
For some reason stand-alone EMS debates turn out some very passionate/nasty threads - I guess because we're talking serious amounts of cash for each choice.  I guess people need to defend their positions for choosing their EMS units!
An EMS flexibility is directly related to it's potential to cause harm to the engine.  Ignorance in tuning an EMS usually turns out to be a disaster - this is directly proportional in the tunability of the EMS itself.  A good example is the A'PEXi P-FC (versus Haltech, etc.).  Most P-FC's are pre-tuned from A'PEXi authorized dealers, which mean very little adjustment from the owners.  How many of you P-FC owners know even HOW to adjust your units?  Sure, the P-FC owners are laughing at all the Haltech owners cause of lown engines.  Well, guess what - the Haltech has much more adjustability.
I want to see a raise in hands, how many people have had FIRST-HAND experiene with the AEM unit?  I'd bet the majority of you have never touched, seen, or messed with one.  Jason (Seibel?) is very passionate in defending the unit - I tend to side with him.  I've messed with it at SEMA 01 this past November, and it's a VERY impressive unit.  It gives MoTeC a run for the money for the sheer power and control, but it's a much more EASIER interface.  This makes for the potential of embracing by the mainstream a lot easier to swallow; anyone who has messed with a MoTeC knows it's a royal pain-in-the-*** to control initially until you get used to it.  Someone mentioned $1,000, but what I've been told it's going to be at LEAST $2,000 for the EMS and the controller.  I dunno what the $1,200 GB price includes.  This thing scares me, as I'm a Haltech advocate.
As for functions and algorithms, I've seen a lot of talk on theories; I doubt AEM has released how exactly it controls everything, but I'll put my money that you're wrong.  Traction control can be anywhere from a ignition retard to a fuel cut - to be assuming it's a fuel-cut is just plain stupid.
The EMS unit is only as good as the person tuning it...
-Ted
For some reason stand-alone EMS debates turn out some very passionate/nasty threads - I guess because we're talking serious amounts of cash for each choice.  I guess people need to defend their positions for choosing their EMS units!
An EMS flexibility is directly related to it's potential to cause harm to the engine.  Ignorance in tuning an EMS usually turns out to be a disaster - this is directly proportional in the tunability of the EMS itself.  A good example is the A'PEXi P-FC (versus Haltech, etc.).  Most P-FC's are pre-tuned from A'PEXi authorized dealers, which mean very little adjustment from the owners.  How many of you P-FC owners know even HOW to adjust your units?  Sure, the P-FC owners are laughing at all the Haltech owners cause of lown engines.  Well, guess what - the Haltech has much more adjustability.
I want to see a raise in hands, how many people have had FIRST-HAND experiene with the AEM unit?  I'd bet the majority of you have never touched, seen, or messed with one.  Jason (Seibel?) is very passionate in defending the unit - I tend to side with him.  I've messed with it at SEMA 01 this past November, and it's a VERY impressive unit.  It gives MoTeC a run for the money for the sheer power and control, but it's a much more EASIER interface.  This makes for the potential of embracing by the mainstream a lot easier to swallow; anyone who has messed with a MoTeC knows it's a royal pain-in-the-*** to control initially until you get used to it.  Someone mentioned $1,000, but what I've been told it's going to be at LEAST $2,000 for the EMS and the controller.  I dunno what the $1,200 GB price includes.  This thing scares me, as I'm a Haltech advocate.
As for functions and algorithms, I've seen a lot of talk on theories; I doubt AEM has released how exactly it controls everything, but I'll put my money that you're wrong.  Traction control can be anywhere from a ignition retard to a fuel cut - to be assuming it's a fuel-cut is just plain stupid.
The EMS unit is only as good as the person tuning it...
-Ted
03-07-02, 05:29 PM
#65
Senior Member
Well, I definitely agree that the EMS is only good as its tuning.
PFC has barely any adjustability without any software interface, no doubt. With Datalogit, the PFC has reasonable adjustability.
The AEM has no controller. If it does, it is optional. With the software you can interface and change anything with a laptop.
No doubt that traction control is fuel cut. I think that this is the best way to do it.
Read this...
Fuel Cut
The idea of cutting fuel to an engine sets alarm bells ringing in engine builders, as they all know of the potential disaster of a high revving race engine running lean. Running in a lean combustion mode will elevate in-cylinder temperatures very rapidly, the denser the air/fuel charge, the more heat the lean burn can generate. Therefore it is vital that a fuel cut system will not cause a lean burn.
The simplest way of preventing a lean burn is to remove more than 50% of the fuel from the pulsed delivery. A mixture will only ignite if the air/fuel ratio is within a tightly defined window, look at the efforts being put into making lean burn engines fire on very low air/fuel ratios (1:20 or more). Removing more than 50% of the fuel will cause an air fuel ratio of over 1:25 and will result in a complete miss-fire, with the unburned fuel passing out through the exhaust valve. Even if a high air/fuel ratio did manage to ignite, the energy available from the amount of petrol injected wouldn't be enough to elevate temperatures significantly. Of course the ideal system will remove 100% of the pulsed fuel delivery, allowing the cylinder to take a gulp of fresh air, and the in-cylinder temperature would remain virtually unaffected.
Prolonged fuel cut on one particular cylinder would cause scavenging of the petrol lining the inlet tracts, and when the next full fuel pulse arrived, it would be partially reduced in quantity by the re-wetting of these tracts. Therefore it is often important to manage a rotation of the cylinder cutting to prevent this situation from occurring.
Spark cut
Cutting the spark to an engine will stop any chances of a weak mixture occurring, but it carries it's own potential problems due to a large quantity of unburned fuel travelling through the cylinder and out of the exhaust. This petrol can remove some of the oil lining the inside of the cylinder, and pass it thorough the exhaust, again this only becomes a problem if the fuel to one particular cylinder is cut for an extended time. The best way to overcome this is to rotate the order in which the cylinders are cut.
The unburned fuel in the exhaust will have a catastrophic affect if there is a catalytic converter in the exhaust, as it will try to convert the unburned fuel to harmless elements, effectively burning the mixture. This causes the catalytic converter to heat up very rapidly, reaching temperatures in excess of 1000°C, and possibly melting down completely. Thus prolonged spark cut is not recommended for catalytic equipped cars.
©1998 Julian Thomas (Managing Director, Racelogic Ltd.julian@racelogic.co.uk)
PFC has barely any adjustability without any software interface, no doubt. With Datalogit, the PFC has reasonable adjustability.
The AEM has no controller. If it does, it is optional. With the software you can interface and change anything with a laptop.
No doubt that traction control is fuel cut. I think that this is the best way to do it.
Read this...
Fuel Cut
The idea of cutting fuel to an engine sets alarm bells ringing in engine builders, as they all know of the potential disaster of a high revving race engine running lean. Running in a lean combustion mode will elevate in-cylinder temperatures very rapidly, the denser the air/fuel charge, the more heat the lean burn can generate. Therefore it is vital that a fuel cut system will not cause a lean burn.
The simplest way of preventing a lean burn is to remove more than 50% of the fuel from the pulsed delivery. A mixture will only ignite if the air/fuel ratio is within a tightly defined window, look at the efforts being put into making lean burn engines fire on very low air/fuel ratios (1:20 or more). Removing more than 50% of the fuel will cause an air fuel ratio of over 1:25 and will result in a complete miss-fire, with the unburned fuel passing out through the exhaust valve. Even if a high air/fuel ratio did manage to ignite, the energy available from the amount of petrol injected wouldn't be enough to elevate temperatures significantly. Of course the ideal system will remove 100% of the pulsed fuel delivery, allowing the cylinder to take a gulp of fresh air, and the in-cylinder temperature would remain virtually unaffected.
Prolonged fuel cut on one particular cylinder would cause scavenging of the petrol lining the inlet tracts, and when the next full fuel pulse arrived, it would be partially reduced in quantity by the re-wetting of these tracts. Therefore it is often important to manage a rotation of the cylinder cutting to prevent this situation from occurring.
Spark cut
Cutting the spark to an engine will stop any chances of a weak mixture occurring, but it carries it's own potential problems due to a large quantity of unburned fuel travelling through the cylinder and out of the exhaust. This petrol can remove some of the oil lining the inside of the cylinder, and pass it thorough the exhaust, again this only becomes a problem if the fuel to one particular cylinder is cut for an extended time. The best way to overcome this is to rotate the order in which the cylinders are cut.
The unburned fuel in the exhaust will have a catastrophic affect if there is a catalytic converter in the exhaust, as it will try to convert the unburned fuel to harmless elements, effectively burning the mixture. This causes the catalytic converter to heat up very rapidly, reaching temperatures in excess of 1000°C, and possibly melting down completely. Thus prolonged spark cut is not recommended for catalytic equipped cars.
©1998 Julian Thomas (Managing Director, Racelogic Ltd.julian@racelogic.co.uk)
03-08-02, 04:14 PM
#66
FD-Kai NZ
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Just one comment to add...
Power Excel is obviously made by the people that made the Power FC.
They also have had 10 years and a comparatively huge budget, so I would expect their software to look nicer
XSPOWER is the only one who knows what the "hidden feature capabilities" of Power Excel are.
What ever they are, they sound great!
I have a Japanese laptop and have decided to sell my Datalogit and buy Power Excel.
How much is Power Excel and when can you send one to me?
Glen
Datalogit...
>>Finally, whether or not the Datalogit is "inferior" to Power Excel and whether or not Power Excel has hidden feature capabilities that Datalogit cannot access as XSPOWER alleged in his post will be determined by Datalogit users after it is released in February. User posts on the results of using Datalogit will be all over the Forum so interested parties will be able to make up their minds based on actual user reports and not presumptive allegations such as those by XSPOWER.
Power Excel is obviously made by the people that made the Power FC.
They also have had 10 years and a comparatively huge budget, so I would expect their software to look nicer
XSPOWER is the only one who knows what the "hidden feature capabilities" of Power Excel are.
What ever they are, they sound great!
I have a Japanese laptop and have decided to sell my Datalogit and buy Power Excel.
How much is Power Excel and when can you send one to me?
Glen
Datalogit...
>>Finally, whether or not the Datalogit is "inferior" to Power Excel and whether or not Power Excel has hidden feature capabilities that Datalogit cannot access as XSPOWER alleged in his post will be determined by Datalogit users after it is released in February. User posts on the results of using Datalogit will be all over the Forum so interested parties will be able to make up their minds based on actual user reports and not presumptive allegations such as those by XSPOWER.
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