mmaragos

I think that there is a little bit of a misconception here. Forget about MSRPs. You can buy the PFC (with Commander) for $1125 (special at the RX-7 Store). You will be able to purchase the AEM for $1300 (maybe as low as $1200 in a GB). In addition, you could purchase the Datalogit software for $280.

IMO, you need the commander with the PFC. You really cannot do anything without the Commander. Even though the Commander is limited, you can still do quite a bit (albeit not a tenth of what the AEM can do).

In the long run, the PFC is not significantly less expensive than the AEM. The concept that the PFC is cheap and therefore they had to restrict user tuning capability to recover profit from authorized dealer tuning seems to be unfounded.

A year ago the PFC would have cost the same as the AEM. In general, new products (especially electronics) can command a higher price.

Jonesboro is correct about the misapplication of the Apex business model outside of Japan. But it was a targetted move to see if they could create a tuner niche that would guarantee repeat customers.

FEARED7

actually, if you buy the datalogit, you dont need the controller for the Power FC. This means you could buy the Power FC and datalogit for about $1100. If you dont want to carry a laptop with you everywhere like you will with the AEM you have the option of buying a commander.

Also, with the PFC you get a better base map to start from, especially if you send it to XS. To me its much easier to clean up a base map than make one from scratch.

Later,
STEPHEN

mmaragos

How much for the XS tuning on the PFC?

Black680hp7

Did you read any of the info on the AEM unit? It comes with a dyno tuned base map, you don't start anything from scratch. You also don't have to have your lap top with you to log.
How do you retreive your dat from the Power FC? Osmosis? bet you need a laptop. Whats the difference?
I guess if you don't know how to tune, and don't care if your car runs as good as it could, probably should go with the Power FC.

Jason.

SPOautos

Actually you dont need a laptop for the Power FC, you can use a small controller thats about the size of a floppy disk with a handle on it to make changes. It plugs right in to the side of the Power FC.

As for the base map that comes standard in the power fc, it can handle up to all the bolt on mods running 13psi of boost. If you go farther than that you can send it to XS and they can remap it with a safe map for what ever mods you have, even a single turbo conversion.

You are now saying that the AEM comes with a dyno tuned base map, this thread is the first time I've seen you say that. On the other threads you said the base map would need to be tuned via dyno or wideband!!!!

If in fact the base map is DYNO tuned then I'm sure you can tell me what mods it is tuned for. That is what people have been asking for quite some time and its the only questions that seems to not get a straight forward answer. I thought your straightforward answer in the 200 post thread was that it needed to be tuned at the dyno or wideband, however now that seems to have changed. Its now being called a "Dyno tuned" map.

BTW - The "Feared 7" post was me. Feared 7 was on the forum at my house and I didnt realize when I got on after him that it remembered his login/password info.....sorry about that

Please once and for all lay this to rest, how accurate is the base map and for what mods is it dyno tuned for???? There are alot of people that would love to have a AEM but dont live where there is a rotory shop or even a dyno. Is the base map for a stock rx7? all standard bolt ons? intake and exhaust???? What is it intended for and how good is it?

Thanks,
STEPHEN

Black680hp7

So exactly how do you get the logged information from the Power FC?


The base maps will handle any of the basic mods as well. What you don't understand here, is that it is easy to say "the power fc will handle any mods up to 13 psi" this is of course limiting your air flow through the engine. Does this mean the Power FC can handle a 100 shot of nitrous, if you stay under 13psi of boost? NO! I am not going to address this again, if you don't understand this much, better stick with stock. I could tune 10 RX7's on the dyno, all with the same mods, and get 10 different results, they all might be close, but they won't be perfect. I can supply you with a base map that will handle any mods, period, and you won't hurt your engine ever, but will it make proper power? NO! and Neither will theirs!

There, Laid to rest!

Jason.

mmaragos

I don't understand why you are upset and not trying harder to answer the questions and sell your product.

You know that SPO was talking about how the PFC comes with maps that will handle some BPUs (intake, DP, CB). Not nitrous.

Nor are the PFC maps tuned, everyone accepts that.

The point is the PFC comes with a map that has a list of mods associated with it. With those mods, we know that we can operate "safely".

YOU brought up that the AEM comes with a dyno-tuned map. SPO was asking for a list of the associated mods for this map. And he is correct that you have avoided answering this question every time that it has been asked before.

I would like to know what the mod list is for the AEM map too. I know that it is not going to be perfectly tuned for optimal performance. I know that tuning of ANY map for ANY ECU is going to be required.

Also, with the PFC/Commander, you're right, you cannot log data. You can access and change some parameters and you can video the LCD, but nothing compares to having a datalog. You can get a datalog with Datalogit, but I don't think that the PFC can compare to the AEM when it comes to capabilities and features.

SPOautos

Oh yea, I can tell you whats laid to rest.....the fact that you wont say $hit about the base map tuning!!!!!! You call it DYNO TUNED, you say its safe you say you could to this or that but you wont give any spacifics.......I'm not interested in what map you COULD create, all I wanted to know is what it WILL do!!!!

You obviously cant answer the question and it seems to **** you off that people need to know!!!!!

Since your head of research and development you should know what the base map consists of.......your prob the one that came up with the map!!!! If it was created to be safe.....what mods was it designed to be safe with?????

I'm not saying that the PFC map is a perfectly tuned map for everyone, thats stupid and you've never heard me say that!!!!! I'm saying its a decent map that is better than a upgraded ecu, has outstanding drivability (much much much better than stock), provides more power, and is safe for certain BOLT ON mods!!!!!! Yes you can throw it on a dyno or wideband it on the street and make some more power, normally not much though (usually about 15rwhp from what I've seen) depending on what mods the person has.

Anyway all I was asking is what mods is the base map designed to be safe, drivable, and DESIGNED for???? Its not going to matter though, because you just lost my business as well as some other peoples.

Bye,
STEPHEN

Black680hp7

Obviously the system wouldn't have been good for you. You have to know what you are doing to have a system that has any capabilities. The base maps are good for just that, getting the car down to get tuned. I wouldn't pretend to offer a map that was safe for certain mods. The fact is that you could put any map on any car, and NOT GUARANTEE it is safe, that goes for any system. What if you have a plugged up fuel filter, and take the thing out and blow up your engine cause it went lean? Who's fault is that? We don't market this as a system that is designed not to be adjusted. The only thing that pisses me off here is that you pretend you know what you are doing, but obviously do not. There are people are knowledgable enough to have a capable system, and ones that should be stuck with very little adjustability.

Also I am not trying to sell anything, I am here to answer questions. This one I have answered a dozen times or more.

The only thing that can be guaranted the base map is safe for is running the car it was tuned on as hard as he likes! anything else is strictly a guess. Why do you think the factory maps run so rich? and have conservative timing maps? BECUASE EVEN THE FACTORY CAN"T GUARANTEE their maps will be safe in every stock car if tuned to the ragged edge.

Jason.

mmaragos

The question of which mods the AEM base map was created with still remains.

Look, we are not expecting guarantees. We realize the risks. I know my PFC could be tuned to put down more RWHP and it will be some day, but not now. And I know which mods I can add and which I cannot not to stay "safe" with the PFC. Not everyone has ready access to a dyno or wide band O2 (because of proximity, money, or etc.).

You told us that the AEM comes with "safe" base maps for "basic" mods. What are those mods? Intake, CB, DP?

You have not answered this question a dozen times, you have never answered this question directly or specifically. We have received the response of "no different than the PFC", but why not spell out which mods for the AEM?

You are correct, maybe the AEM is not for people that want to know what the base maps are good for. Maybe we should stay with the PFC. I want to switch over because of the datalogging and additional features. Then, when time and money allows, I will add a wide band O2 and maybe some dyno time or maybe just street tune. But before I can install the AEM (and have access to traction control, tons of data and a crap load of other stuff), I need to know what mods I can "safely" run.

Maybe I am not your average customer, but I would think that I am close. The question of which mods the PFC is safe for comes up frequently on that board.

Have you made a conscious decision to not release the exact information on which mods the AEM will be "safe" for, due to legal concerns? What's the deal?

Note that I am not trying to harass you. I just am trying to understand and become comfortable with the AEM before I purchase it.

And whether or not you want to be, you are a spokesperson for the AEM product and your representation of the product may lead to sales. Indirectly or not, you are helping to sell the product by answering questions and posting product information on the forum.

Black680hp7

I wouldn't recommend anyone to take a map from someone (no matter how trust worthy the source) and go racing. The fact is the base map we supply I can only say would be safe for that specific vehicle upon which it was tuned. ANY reputable tuner would not give a calibration that wasn't tuned for that specific vehicle and say "This is safe for your car". The factory computer is "Safe" with basic mods (downpipe, exhaust, air filter) but that's not good enough for anybody, so why would this be any different. This system is not designed to have the basic calibration left untouched, period. It is designed for the calibration to be changed and tuned! The cars we are doing the testing on are in varying states of modifications, from stock to basic up grades to my rx7. I starts, runs and drives everyone of these cars. I still would not recommend anyone take these maps and race the car without checking the state of tune on their specific vehicle, especially on a rotary where one problem area can mean a new engine! That's it, we will supply a conservative map that will support basic mods up to the mechanical limits of the injectors, fuel pump etc..

Jason.

mmaragos

Thanks Jason.

I am coming around on this, don't know what my prob was, but what you have stated now rings a bell with me. It was just confusing due to the way things went back and forth in the thread.

Damn. I need a wideband...and some other goodies...

SPOautos

Well, that fine..... That is EXACTLY what I thought from the beginning!!!!! What started this whole thing is when I mentioned to someone on a earlier post that it needed to be dyno tuned right from the beginning you acted like I was an idiot!!!!!!! You said that "it comes with a DYNO TUNED BASE MAP"

All I wanted to know is that if it comes with a "Dyno tuned base map" what mods is it designed for because this was news to me.

So back to my original statement.......the AEM requires either dyno tuning or wideband on the street from the beginning.

Thanks,
STEPHEN

Black680hp7

Now why would you say " the AEM system needs dyno tuned, or a wideband from the start", and not "any programmable ecu needs dyno tuned or a wideband"?

Jason.

Freaky Monkey007

Because the ecu that people are talking about(the PFC) comes with a dyno tuned map that is consertive and will work with all FD's withen the limits of the mod list they say it will work with. We realize that for any system to be able to produce the max hp that it will have to be dyno tuned. But what we have been asking is if you can put on a intake, cb, dp and other things(the most common things) and it still be fine without having to alter any maps that the aem sys. comes with. With the PFC you can do that. To be honest with you after reading this and the "Help" you have been giving people i am starting not to want the AEM unit. We still would like a definate answer if the AEM unit will or will not suppost basice performace upgrades and if it will what upgrades.

silver93

At least there is finally competition for the PFC! Another plug and play stand alone in the $1000 price range.

Also, one of the designers used his personal FD as a test bed!

As for why I am going to go for the AEM unit over the PFC -
aside from the options, laptop interface, etc....

one of the designers of the ECU is a member of this board and the Supra forum. AND he responds to questions. Online tech support, from the designer, who works for a major company, who drives an FD with this unit -

I know, the PFC is nice, but my money is on AEM!

mmaragos

I was feeling the same way, but ask yourself how many mods can be supported by the existing fuel system. Jason's comment was that the AEM will provide a "safe" amount of fuel up to the mechnical limitations of the fuel system. There are a lot of variables and opinions on what mods and how much boost will be "safely" supported by the existing fuel system components.

Also, there is a good amount of variability in mods, some CBs flow better than others, some intakes flow more than others, some cats flow better than others, depending on the condition of the engine, turbos, and injectors, they could also play a role in which and how many mods the stock fuel system will support.

Apex'i took these basic mods, intake, CB and DP, and said that they are good for these mods, but keep in mind that Apex has disclaimers. You use the PFC at your risk. Apex chose these basic mods as they knew the stock fuel system could support it and they could stay in the "safe" zone with these mods. Is the Apex tuned for intake, CB & DP? Nope.

Now you have the AEM, safe for whatever mods the stock fuel system will support. We know that this is at least an intake, CB & DP...that is "safe".

No matter if it is the AEM or PFC or ???, you are going to need a wide band and some testing and tuning to figure out how to "safely" tune your car with your mods. They you have to decide what is "safe" for you...11.2, 11.8, 12.4, ??? and we have not even got to timing yet.

Black680hp7

Well Said, I knew I had to be making sense to someone!

Jason.

Red-Rx7

Interesting.

I think where a lot of people get confused is when they attempt to associate specific MODIFICATION(S) to a specific maps ensuring safety.

In reality, one can only generalize what certain MODIFICATION(S) equate to in actual tuning.

For example: People consistantly want a map that designed for their FD3S with a catback, intake, downpipe, and pullies. What Jason keeps indicating is that each is different. Yet, the confusion lies with that previously maps provided for the PFC were labeld as "Catback, Intake, Downpipe, Pullies".

This is NOT the way to tune a car. These maps which are labeled this are only attempting to get you somewhat CLOSE to your specification and then YOU are responcible for tuning it from there.

What distingueshes these maps are: mS of injector pulse per RPM increment per PSI reading, Ignition timing per RPM increment per PSI reading, battery voltage mS injector pulse per RPM increment per PSI reading, barometric pressure mS injector pulse per RPM increment per PSI reading, coolant tempature mS injector pulse per Celcius degree increment per PSI reading, Intake tempature mS injector pulse per celcius degree increment per PSI reading, Full throttle/Zero throttle, etc etc etc.

An appropriate way to ask a question on how these based maps were tuned is as so:

The base map that comes with the AEM computer dictates what degree of timing at XXX RPM at XXX PSI? Also, what is the split timing between T&B spark plugs at XXX RPM at XXX PSI? Also, at WOT at XXX RPM at XXX PSI what injector mS pulse time running at for the stock 550cc and 850cc injectors?

Since one can rationalize that the base barometric pressure, intake tempature, battery voltage, injection time would be standardly incremented across the board for the XXX mS previously shown.

Now how does this equate to the CATBACK/DOWNPIPE/INTAKE/PULLY modification? Take 5 cars find the results of the mS injector pulse for all the different loads on a WIDEBAND O2 sensor and tune write down these values which equated to a safe 11:4 - 1 A/F ratio, then take the average value of all 5 cars, then ADD another .8 - 1.0 mS of injector timing to it. Thats a base map for you. Thats how UN-TUNED it is, but still allows you to drive your car.

Thats a basic gist of it. It goes into much deeper lingo than that. Its just all tuning basics. So, SPO: Ask the question to Jason that I had posed earlier for you while filling in the blanks. Jason should be able to provide the exact details; in which you can further deduce if that meets your XXX MODIFICATION(S). If you still have trouble trying to decide if 4.400 mS injector timing at 6000 RPMS at 14 psi of boost is enough fuel for your mods, then either try yourself on a WIDEBAND ; or continue asking 10 OTHER tuners and then average their responces out, add .8 - 1.0 mS of Injector time, and there is your safe answer.

Hope it wasn't too confusing. Ultimatly, each car is different due to the 1000 different circumstances that effect the way the car operates. To have a TUNED ecu, you need to take you car and slap a wideband on it.

Mike
(runs a Haltech E6K)

Red-Rx7

ttt

Wade

iTrader: (1)

Jason,

I know you get tired of this and it must be very frustrating, but just try to keep your cool. It's hard to be politically correct 100% of the time.

There are dozens of people on this forum who have blown their engines with the Power FC (I personally know of 3!!). There are dozens who are driving around in their FD's with Apex PFC without ever doing a wideband or dyno tune! When their engines blow, who pays for it? I don't see Apex, or SR Motorsports, or the RX-7 Store, or XS engineering running to replace anyone's engine. So why are some people so willing to accept the base maps in the Apex Power FC?

So when Jason says the AEM comes with a dyno tuned base map, great. He'd be lying if he said it was perfectly safe to use on your FD. Anyone with any sense who has the AEM, the PFC, or any other programmable computer will go easy on the car and get it tuned as soon as possible.

Spending $1000 or more on an EMS and many other thousands on modifications, and then not spending a little time and money to tune it and risk blowing an expensive engine is dumb. I wish these people would drive other cars instead of contributing to the FD's bad image of being unreliable and touchy.

Wade

KevinK2

Jason,

2 advantages of interest to me, over the PFC, are knock control, and transition change for sequentials. about the latter ...

lowering the 4.5K transition would be a great way to even out the torque curve for high hp sequentials. Torque is even for the stock FD, but when power is increased with boost and mods, torque drops off too much by 4500 rpm, and a lower crossover is needed, say 4000 rpm. This is apparent from looking at a lot of dyno runs, like Max's old one at his web site.

Is this possible with the AEM, as you suggested on the supra site?

mmaragos

Just kind of curious how they (the people you know) blew their engines.

Any details? Was it because of the PFC or was it because they put too many mods on without doing any tuning? Or possibly trying to tune without a wideband?

I am curious to know how many PFC owners have tossed an engine by following Apex's recommendations and cautions (all of them).

mmaragos

You can change the transition on the PFC with Datalogit. Knock "control" is definitely out of the question with the PFC.

From what I have read before, both of these features are available with the AEM, but I am not too sure how good the knock control is with the stock sensor...any comments Jason?

maxpesce

I going AEM for 1 reason only, AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSON CONTROL - regardles of any other pms's features if it won't run my AT, I don't want it.