m0t03

I gotta buy a new ECU before spring. I had it all figured out about a month ago. I was gonna go with the Power FC. But now with AEM's new ECU i dont know which way to go. So many people have PFC's so if I had trouble with it I could probably get someone to help me an I like the whole commander thing that comes with it. Wont have to buy uneeded guages. What do you all think I just want the best for my car.

SPOautos

If you dont have a wideband or access to a dyno go with the PFC. You can send it off for tuning for $150. It may not be quite as good as a dyno tune but it will be fairly accurate and safe.

The AEM requires an initial dyno tune or if you have a wideband you can tune it on the street.

ALSO - Now that the new Power FC "datalogit" box is out it will have data logging and wideband inputs. The cost of this new box is $280 if you wanted it.

I have the Power FC and was thinking of going aem to get the datalog and wideband input but instead will be buying the "datalogit" for my Power FC.

It just boils down to how much time and money you want to invest in tuning. If you just dont want to mess with tuning or dont have access to a good tuner go with the Power FC and send it to XS. If you have a wideband or access to a really good rotory tuner you might want the AEM.

just my .02

Later,
STEPHEN

Black680hp7

The AEM unit does not require an initial dyno tune, it requires as much tuning as a power fc does if you want it to be precise. If you want full control, better go with the AEM unit, no one can tune your car without being in it!

Jason.

Badog

Planning on going to the AEM. Selling the PFC. Need that datalogging and wideband (since I can't find time to do it).

SPOautos

You said that the "base map" that comes with the car is just to get the car going and it will either need dyno or wideband time right from the start. The Power FC can be sent to XS. Its not as accurate as a dyno or wideband placed on my car but it is a map from a dynoed car with mods just like mine. They take that dynoed map and turn it down a little to make it safe but its not far off.

I guess whats in question is the AEM's "base map". Is this something we can actually use? how close is it? Is it designed for certain mods like the Power FC? I dont have a wideband or access to a dyno. Now that the "datalogit" is out for the Power FC I can data log and use a wideband with it as well but I have neither so it really doesnt matter. The XS maps for the Power FC are on the safe side which means less hp, but its also much cheaper than dyno or wideband and there prob isnt more than 10rwhp difference in the XS verus dyno.

They both have thier strong points but here is my question. Is it feasable to suggest someone buy a AEM without a wideband or dyno access? By the time you add in the dyno or wideband the AEM will cost over 2K and thats with the good group buy prices. They will also have to get a laptop if they dont have one already.

Later,
STEPHEN

RICE RACING

I have to agree, the PFC is the best unit for simplicity...period.

I have used ALOT of top class units, MOTEC, Autronic, Haltech, and other mid range units EMS, Microtech. They are all much more involved to use than the PFC by a long way.

There is nothing to indicate from the demo software that the AEM will be anywhere as near as easy to tune for people with limited resources.

Add this to the fact that there are many maps, very close base ones that allow easy and quick tunning and the user support networks that exist for the PFC and Haltech for instance most notably and the AEM unit looks quite like the others despite it technical merit.

I would like to know alot more on the technical specs of the AEM before I would consider switching from my Autronic unit, I looked at the site but could not find them (did not look hard enough?)

The situation regarding support and proven performance from a variety of RE users will take time to establish, but from what I have herd it should do the job, just a matter of how long it takes for it to build up the network of support as the PFC and Haltech enjoy for the new user.

For people such as my self it is not such an issue as I tend to pick units based on technical merit as it applies to my specific requirements, however looking at it from the eyes of the average enthusiast it is would be VERY hard to go past a PFC or Haltech.

In youre case, as in the majority, it would be very hard to go past the proven reliabilty of the PFC, I have used one on a customers car, and I can vouch for it's accuracy, ease of use, and support network.

crispeed

Peter!
I've allready asked for some of the technical specs but so far I have not actually gotten straight answers. It's kinda like buy and hope for the best is what I've gotten from them unless they think that stuff is secret.
I personaly don't go for sales pitch and hype because you know what's involve with that! I always like to see true data to back up that sales pitch and hype!

crispeed
87TII
9.20@150mph

mmaragos

I know that AEM will retort with something along the lines of "We are more capable of controlling every aspect of your engine...". Which looks to be true, their system will probably control more bells-and-whistles than the PFC (nitrous control, traction control, etc.).

The PFC has a reasonably large support network and now (February) has data logging as well as more control over the engine through Datalogit (you can change more than what you can with the Commander).

I would think that for most users, the PFC with the Commander and Datalogit software would have everything they need.

I do like the idea of some of the options on the AEM...they sound like fun to play with. Is that enough to justify switching over from the PFC? I must confess I wanted the AEM when I first saw it, now I am seriously reconsidering since the Datalogit is available, it is difficult to tell what the AEM support network will be and I can't help but wonder what the cause of the delays with the release of the AEM are. Additionally, the Commander interface is compact and handy.

Black680hp7

Check the AEM ECU Features thread under AEM ECU

Jason.

RX794

The only gripe I have with the PowerFC is the fact that only one performance shop in the U.S. has the windows software for it(yes I know it's in Japanease and only works on a Japanease windows based computer). This limits the potential for the PowerFC for the independent user here in the states, I LOVE this unit, BUT if they don't release the software soon, it makes me(and others) think of changing to something that I can access every aspect of. I don't think it's fair to everyone that spent $$$ on the PowerFC to be limited to what they can with it because the software can't be distributed(for whatever the reason is). If anyone from the shop that has the software can explain why it's like this, please do so. I hope the shop that I'm talking about doesn't take any offense to this, I just wanna know why it's like this. I know you guys at __ know what you're doing, I'm just asking a question.

m0t03

im still perty new to all of this fuel mangement stuff. But I think im gonna go with the PFC, what do u all think

Black680hp7

I think everyone is missing the Big picture here, if you get some guys that are responsable tuners, and you can trust that they do good work, you can "trade" calibrations for the AEM unit. If you have to send your ecu off to get calibrated, you may as well get a chip, there is no way someone can dial your engine in without having direct feedback on what the engine needs.

Jason.

mmaragos

I think the point that was being made was that with the PFC you can get it set up to your mods by sending it to XS. They will provide a safe map that can then be tuned via dyno or driving around. They definitely cannot provide a "tuned" or "dialed-in" PFC without the car, but they can provide maps that are safe to drive around in.

I think that all/most of the aftermarket ECU owners know that they can trade maps, we know that we will be able to do this with the AEM unit too. It is just difficult to step into it without a definite support network. And there is still some confusion as to how each AEM is shipped. Does it come with "safe" maps for a few specified mods or maps to run stock only, or what? Maybe I am just thick, but it still is not clear to me.

BUT...my mouth IS watering when I look over the specs.

Black680hp7

The base maps we provide are the same way, they will run every bit as good as the stock map, as you increase boost the fuel will be there as long as you do not exceed the mechanical limitations (I.E. injector flow, fuel pump flow, etc..). I don't see the difference.

Jason.

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Just tell me when I have a firm delivery date. If it's after April I'll wait till next driving season. I want my car back from KDR by then, with or without the AEM EMS.

Ken

mmaragos

The reference to the "stock" map threw me. As the stock map can only take 2-3 mods.

Is the following statement correct?

AEM is providing their ECU with "safe" maps that are suitable for the modifications specific to each FD. "Safe" meaning, as you stated, as you increase boost, the fuel will be there as long as you do not exceed the mechanical limitations (e.g., injector flow, fuel pump flow, etc.).

Sorry to be a PITA. I really do appreciate you taking the time that you have so far. Not only here, but on the Supra Forum too.

Jonesboro

I have been openly critical about the PFC but I intend to stick with it. I believe that Apexi (the company) deserves blame for lack of extensive "forthcoming/voluntary" customer support, and lack of response to the issues on this Forum. I expected life with a PFC to be easier, but it turned out that the real problem was my "expectation" that was wrong because I haven't found any problems with the PFC as a product. In my own situation I have concluded that 90% of my problems have to do with a lack of understanding about tuning the rotary engine and maybe 10% has to do with operating the PFC.

I am encouraged by the large number of people who use the PFC and quality of the evolving information base coming from the users. You can't put a price on the value of this user info, and it will be years (if ever) before any new ECUs such as AEM will have the same user base. Furthermore, with the Datalogit coming out the info and user posts on the PFC will only become more extensive and informative.

Finally, I really like having the PFC Commander. It is small and compact so I can always keep it connected for monitoring significant operating parameters like injector duty and water temperature.

Keep an open mind on the PFC.

RX794

One of the reasons I stated what I did above on this thread is because I've seen the windows software for the PowerFC, it's plain BADASS, the things that you can see, how it works, and how it looks(colored 3D graphs) is just awesome, unfortunately only XS has the software, can we just get an answer as to WHY?

Black680hp7

It definately won't be years before there is a large customer base of users of this ECU, in fact I bet you have more AEM users in the next few months than the pfc, simply by the number of vehicles it's available for. As for the commander, that's great, but it doesn't give you the full picture, to do a good job tuning, you need to to be able to see the way the fuel and timing is flowing. You have to have a screen to do that.

Jason.

Black680hp7

Every car is different, the maps we provide will be tuned safely, and allow the basic mods, if you intend to turn the boost up, or put a bigg single Turbo on the car, our base map will do as good as anybodys, I would recommend however that you tune your car accordingly, that is why it is fully programmable, so every car can be fine tuned to perfection.

Jason.

Greg

Has anyone actually tested the reliability and build quality of the EMS as a whole. New products dont relly kick for me as I like to buy the equipment that I know work. I have yet to even see a real picture of the EMS or a person other that this guy that uses it. People also must think about a tuner that is familiar with the software in which there are none cause the thing is not out yet. Ill Pass on being the test rat for a new product that will be the main factor of running or blowing my $5000 engine setup and someones word and THEIR confidence in the unit cannot change that. I am not too eager to waste money so I will stick with whats it proven for tuning and overally quality. Black680hprx7 Can you post some pictures of the ems installed and some dyno results of your car using the EMS.

Jonesboro

Originally posted by Black680hp7 (Jason)
Maybe my previous post on this thread was not clear.

As to programmable ECUs, the fact of the matter is the Haltech and the PFC (and some other ECUs) are in use by the vast majority of the "pioneers" of consumer tuned FD3S. I find it hard to envision a scenario where these current Haltech and PFC owners will abandon their units and switch to the AEM. Therefore, in the case of FD3S, I would expect that AEM's primary market opportunity is those who do not currently own a programmable ECU. Hence, I believe it will be a long time before the AEM will have a comparable and extensive FD3S user base as is the case with Haltech and PFC.

Next month when Datalogit is released, the PFC will have full screen display. So, I was pointing out that the PFC will have BOTH full screen display AND the Commander for continuous display while driving.

I'm not trying to start a war of words on the AEM versus the PFC. Notice that nowhere have I "dissed" the AEM. I'm simply trying to contribute to full disclosure about the PFC for those who are not aware.

mmaragos

OK. So no was the answer to my question.

The point (way) above was that you can send the PFC to XS and have them return it with safe maps for your mods. So their map for a single turbo would be significantly different from the AEM or PFC base map, which is for basic mods. It is not going to be finely tuned, but it is not going to pop your engine either.

In defense of the AEM, I do like its capabilities and features over the PFC. No doubt that it will do more, no matter how many software packages you add to the PFC. I am still considering purchasing the AEM. Even though I have the PFC and have already purchased Datalogit.

I realize that there is a sales spin in what you have said in your last couple of posts here. That's OK. But the above statement (as with all the statements about the base maps) have been vague and somewhat misleading. No base map for a couple BPUs is going to be sufficient for a big single turbo. Saying that it is as good as other ECUs could imply that this will work. Saying that there will be more AEM users overall than compared to other ECU users is misleading too, as we are talking about FD3s here. An AEM Honda/piston engine map isn't going to do us any good. So, in theory, there could be thousands of Honda users and three FD3 users. There are quite a few PFC/Haltech users on this board that have made a strong support network for the PFC/Haltech. AEM will have a FD3 support group, but it is not going to catch up to the PFC/Haltech in months.

Black680hp7

People are already "Ditching" their Haltechs, MoTecs, Speedpros, etc... Don't let the price fool you, this system wasn't invented yesterday, it has been in development for several years. There are plenty of people on this list that have seen the system on my car, and have seen it run. Ask Ari, Steve Kahn, Adam Saruwatari, Abel Ibarra, I could go on and on. I am here to answer questions and help everyone understand what this system is capable of. EFI isn't rocket science, if the fuel delivery and timing delivery is right, you WILL make power, most every system on the market is capable of that. The real question is will it give you the feedback to make proper tuning decisions. Take a look at any serious race car, and look at the datalogging equipment that is in those cars, do you think they spent thousands of dollars, and add all of that weight just to show off? Don't get me wrong the Haltech, PFC, MoTec, etc.. all do what they were designed to do, just fine. This system was designed from the ground up to do more than any system on the market, and do it better. IF you chose not to change, that is fine, I am not here to preach, I am here to answer questions, give my tuning experience, and make sure everyone understands how the features can be used.
I should mention that since I was in charge of designing the features and software of the system, I am a die hard Rotary enthusiast, every possible scenario I could think of, as well as input from several other top rotary guys, is in there. If you think you can get a "Blind map" from someone that you think is safe for your car, better think again. How many people on this list have blown their engines with their "Safe Maps", I know there are several, I have talked to several people. I can send a map out that I can guarantee would nver cause an engine to fail. Will it make power? Some. Will it make good power? No!

Sorry for being so long winded.

Jason.

Jonesboro

I posted the following response on another thread currently on the ECU Forum and I am repeating it here because it also applies to this thread.

XYPOWER Explains a lot

I think that XSPOWER has shed some needed light on the PFC that explains a lot.

Now we have an explanation why there is little or no PFC customer support from APEXi. APEXi marketed the PFC based on a business model that prevails in Japan where owners of the PFC expect to go to a commercial ECU tuner and pay for tuning services. APEXi makes money off the tuning services in addition to the selling cost of the PFC itself. This explains how APEXi establishes their MSRP for the PFC at a price to attract buyers because they expect to get additional revenues (maybe more than the purchase price of the PFC itself) from the PFC tuning. Apparently not many Japanese FD3S owners are interested in doing the ECU tuning themselves. I don't know anything about the car tuning business in Japan, but I expect that commercial ECU tuners with Power Excel are widespread in Japan, the tuning business is flourishing, and therefore APEXi's business model works very well in Japan. Consequently, APEXi does not provide PFC tuning support to PFC owners because they get revenues for PFC tuning from commercial tuners.

However, it appears that the USA (and also the Aussie) market is substantially different than the Japanese market. In the USA market many (maybe most) FD3S owners want to be able to do the tuning themselves and not go to commercial tuners. Furthermore, there is not a widespread ECU tuning industry in the USA comparable to the Japan tuning industry to support a tuning revenue based business model. Therefore, APEXi's business model works in Japan but not in the USA. I think that the fact that only XSPOWER has Power Excel reflects the state of the ECU tuning industry in the USA.

It seems to me that further evidence of the validity of the above explanation lies in the difference in the MSRP pricing strategies of the PFC versus the AEM. The PFC is predominately a Japanese product based on the Japanese market model and sells for an MSRP around $1000 US. The AEM is predominately a USA product based on the USA market model and will reported sell for an MSRP around $1750 US. APEXi expects to make up the $'s difference by receiving PFC tuning revenues, AEM doesn't expect additional revenues from tuning.

Along comes Datalogit in response to the PFC tuning market demand in Australia and the USA where the commercial ECU tuning industry isn't established to meet the demand for ECU tuning. Hence, PFC owners want/need to become tuners and the Datalogit will enable owners to meet this need. I expect that there will still be a demand for ECU tuning services in the USA for FD3S owners near commercial ECU tuners, but no where near what has been established by the Japanese model.

Finally, whether or not the Datalogit is "inferior" to Power Excel and whether or not Power Excel has hidden feature capabilities that Datalogit cannot access as XSPOWER alleged in his post will be determined by Datalogit users after it is released in February. User posts on the results of using Datalogit will be all over the Forum so interested parties will be able to make up their minds based on actual user reports and not presumptive allegations such as those by XSPOWER.