an_juan

has anyone succeeded in deciphering the stock fuel and timing map from the stock ECU? I wonder if you could hook the ECU up to a PC, and have look at the fuel and ignition points. This information would be great to transfer to an aftermarket ECU for a base map.

Styk33

Hook up a datalogger to you stock car and datalog different situations to get information. There are people that have done it, and it is not as important as you would think. If you know what you are doing you can create a map that works better with you car than the stock ECU.

skunks

i think the power fc maps should be some what close to what the stock maps are, i mean it can't be that much off can it?

Wade

iTrader: (1)

I think the PFC maps are pretty close to stock fuel wise. The timing seems to be much different though, particularly while boosting (PFC timing is much more conservative than stock appears to be).

RETed

Why?
The reason you get a stand-alone EMS is to run much better control over stock.&nbsp Stock settings are a compromise design for performance - fuel efficiency - reliablility.&nbsp Those looking for stock maps either don't have any idea where to start or have no clue how to tune a stand-alone EMS...



-Ted

an_juan

I must be stupid then to be seeking for stock map. Look at my post again, I am looking for a BASE MAP (i.e. a staring point, as you've probably done at one point). Do you even know what the stock timing value at each load point for an FD? I mean is it 30 or 33 degrees BTDC at 20% load & 2K RPM, etc.? How could one improve without knowing where the starting point is. I normally have a life and don't have time to log 4000+ posts in a little more than a year.

Evil Aviator

So what you are saying is that you don't have any idea where to start AND have no clue how to tune a stand-alone EMS. That's OK, but it's not much reason to get upset with someone who has 4000+ posts contributing to this forum.

You can't transfer the information from one ECU to another because of the differences in the aftermarket ECU's, caused mostly by the TPS and load band variances. Every aftermarket EMS that I know of already ships with a base map. You can use the timing information from the factory service manual as a baseline, and then work your way up the load bands from there. Another option is to just ask to see other people's maps using the same EMS and similar mods as your car. It's not any more complicated than that. You are going to go nuts if you try to interpolate everything from grid to grid.

RETed

Yes, I do know what a base ignition maps looks like, and NO, you will not get it from me.&nbsp I tune Haltechs for a living, and I don't give that kinda information out freely.&nbsp I know people who would KILL to have access to the stock ignition maps.&nbsp You insult me and then ask for answer?&nbsp Oh you gotta be kidding me...

Oh, BTW, I'm been laid off from work for almost the past 12 months to the day at the end of this month.&nbsp I spend most of my time in the 2nd gen section, cause FD owners like you I can't stand.



-Ted

Wade

iTrader: (1)

The Power FC default maps are very close to stock but the "Base mod" map has less timing advance ("Base stock" has more timing). Fuel wise they are almost the same as stock. You can download this stuff off of the Power FC area of this forum.

There are also dozens of Haltech E6K maps freely available on the net which are a great starting point. Just look around a little and you'll have more than enough information.

Wade

silikenrf

an_juan,

I know where you are coming from. I saw RETed post a jab at me for asking questions to increase my knowledge base...don't let it get to you. After posting 4K times, I'm sure that he is tired of us newbies trying to get the goods without paying our dues... enough said.

Cam at Pettit has a nice mod to the stock ECU that extends the fuel map past fuel cut for boost over 12lbs. His 1bar chipset runs quite nice and is surprisingly fast compared to my relatively "base mod" mapped PFC. its cheaper than the PFC, but doesn't have the bells and whistles (FC Commander display). He has an unlimited version, but I wouldn't go there. The "wks" version at 14.7lbs is serious boost.

If you can afford a PFC, a Datalogit, and a UEGO (wideband) O2 sensor, you can pretty much conquer the fuel maps. The UEGO plugs directly into the Datalogit and you can log A/F ratios against loads and develop a "personalized" map. There are some very useful maps posted which show how to convert the PFC tables into A/F ratios. To get to the timing mysteries is where a dyno helps. Always run in 4th gear to get the best data and don't change more than 2 degrees of timing at a time. (Search the single turbo forum for more info on timing split info as it appears that there are two schools of thought)

I plan to measure the A/F ratios for the Pettit and the base mod map PFC and compare. Remember that the base mod map in the PFC is really a correction to an internal map that you can't see unless you have a Datalogit.

P.S. I have done a lot of searching and eventually asked the most knowledgeable tuner that I could find to help me. Thankfully he has been EXTREMELY helpful, so I am returning the favor by passing on bits of what I have learned.

BTW, Wade really knows his stuff, he has a very thorough website which you could search around here for the link.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the stock ecus do have serial output thru the diagnostic connector, so you could hook your computer up to it.
the 2 problems
1. i dont know what its trying to output
2. i dont know if you will be able to decode it
www.16paws.com/ecu/

mike

an_juan

I want to thank those who contributed positively to my post. Here's the purpose of my querry.

I am using a stand alone computer (Wolf). Basically, my timing is about 33 BTDC at vacuum, and falls off to ~19 at 15 psi boost. I've tried higher (low 20's) before at the same boost level, and it knocked like a ****. Luckly, no damage to the engine. Don't you worry about fuel....I had plenty to play with (~11-ish A/F). I was looking to see if I've pushed the limit as far as timing, so I wanted to see what others were running. I suppose I could use a J&S knock sensor, but just bought a land cruiser so money is tight. BTW, the engine has stock port.

13BAce

Why don't you check out the Wolf forum:
http://www.wolfems.com/forum/index.php?s=

Wade

iTrader: (1)

Some approximate numbers:

ECU
RPM
TIMING BTDC

My Stock ECU/PMS piggyback with -5 degrees at max boost (15psi)
5200 5600 6000 6400 6800 7200
13 17 17 18 21 22

Power FC "Base Mod" Map (what most Power FC's ship with)
5200 5600 6000 6400 6800 7200
7 7 5 7 10 15

Power FC "Base Stock" Map (more aggressive timing, earlier PFC models)
5200 5600 6000 6400 6800 7200
13 13 12 16 18 21

(update 5/17/2002: Anthony is right, need to consider air/water temp. The above timing is for standard water and air temps of 180+ and 100-120F respectively).

Wade

Jodeny

iTrader: (3)

wade,
Do you know what split you were running with the pms??
John

Wade

iTrader: (1)

No, I don't know how much split there is with the stock ECU at full boost or with the PMS added (split would be smaller because I'm retarding leading by 5 degrees).

Wade

Anthony Rodrigues

To correctly map an ignition curve, you will need the relative timing changes from the factory ecu for RPM vs MAP vs SPLIT vs AIRTEMP vs WATERTEMP and collate these with injector firing time relative to TDC. By now your probably thinking the same thing that I did and try to work it out for yourself. A good idea is to post your set up includung turbo/boost levels/ fuel cotane/ engine type/ IC/ ECU etc... From this there maybe a user that has a similar set up to give you a base set up. Whenever I start on ignition curves I try to begin about 7deg less than where I believe it will end up and gradually build to it. Do not feel intimidated as we all were in your shoes at one stage, unfortunately we didnt have these forums to help.
Regards- Anthony