I just got an email from Tom from Payn technologies, inc. (www.payntechnologies.com) and he says that the aem only needs 5 drivers to run a 3 rotor
Quote
"What we would do is run the leading spark on the back rotors in wasted spark. This can be done since the rotor timing is the same".
Now can anyone understand that he said.
I am in desperate need to get a pms for my 20 B engine for drag race. I already got microtech but was desapointed because it is street use and not race or drag use, has a 8500 rpm setup limit. for example.
Will it do spilt timing for trailing?

Bruno

 

See the thread in the 20B section - I'd stay away from this guy, as he just gave you advice that would kill your motor...



-Ted

 

Oh great, a bunch of Honda guys think that they have the 20B figured out. Well, I guess that explains the mysterious 5-channel rumor.

Why are you worried about split timing for a race car?

 

Bruno,
You should have had your MT optioned to 9,500rpm and 30psi. Any reputable dealer should have give you the correct unit. There is no debate there are more succesful racers (circuit or drag ) using MT12s on 20B's or on the street than all of the other units combined. This is a fact!! Or perhaps there are inexperienced people that will tell you different. You can control split with the MT and it is very important in a race application. I have found that the only people that disagree are those that have never done it or do not have the ability to do it. Many of us have offerred our assistance, If you already have the MT12, why dont you contact one of us and I am sure we will be able to sort out any problems you may have.
I dont intend to offend, if you really want any help it is there to be taken.
Regards-Anthony

 

Hmm, maybe the split works better for drag racing, but nobody worth beans uses it on road courses.

 

Tom was right on the money for the 20B, you only need 5 coil drivers to do the job correctly. (The factory uses wasted spark on the lead rears.

Jason.

 

Well

I guest I got the wrong unit then, I got it from atkins rotary,
how can I get the upgrade if the microtech company is in australia, and who knows their telephone number.
Regarding the AEM unit it seems to have more options that the MT, My big concern is that I dont know if I can run either the leading or trailing in wastespark mode.
if so then it will be posible to use the aem Unit.
I know that my 13b engine uses the leading as a waste spark mode, but I don know much about a 20B engine,
all I know is that the rotors are 120 degrees apart.

I will use a peripherical 20 B engine with a turbo, Now if I was to use it without a turbo I wouldnt be worrying about the trailing spark, but since I will use a turbo there has to be a split time for the trailings, as the boost goes up so does the split time,
otherwise my egt will go way to high and I will lose power.

Regards,

Bruno

Jason thank you for your advice.

 

Who are you?&nbsp Siebel?
Care to give us a reference to your (bullshit) "facts"?



-Ted

 

I'm pretty sure that Downing's 4-Rotor and all of the Spencer cars use split timing...I was looking over their head tuner's shoulder at the 24hrs. of Daytona while they were tickling the keys tuning their Motec. Thought I saw three sets of timing maps (most use a three plug setup, not two). I have a pic somewhere...have to figure out where I put it!
Michel

 

who is Jason??????????????????
you DARE ask

He designed the AEM EMS for god's sake!
and owns a bad *** FD also

 

Bruno if you need help with the Microtech
there is a discussion group up and running

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Microtechecu/

 

... which proves that you at least know more than certain people on this forum.

 

I also heard that some people are using or try to use a combination of haltech E6K + IG5,
I already have haltech in my 3er. and I am very happy with it.
Do you think that this combination will work.?
By the way electromotive and Motec is out of the question?

Thank you for the link. I am going to join right away.

 

Bruno,
Contact me on phone Australia 61394168496 and I will make sure you get what you need.
Anthony.
Evil Aviator, Mazda are worth more than beans, THeir racing department thought timing split and plug placement was that important that they added another one and switch others off dependant on load and rpm. Never assume that all of us are only drag racers or want to be measured in terms of beans. Power and efficiency are important to all forms of competition, conflicting flame fronts loose power, I do not understand how this is not easily understood.

 

I dthink that there are 16 hours difference. I will wait till afternoon to give you a call.

Regards,

Bruno

 

O.K. I had recieved some bad information from what I thought was a very reliable source. You cannot run wasted spark on the 20B, it is 120 degrees apart for each firing event. However our system will still be able to run both leading and trailing seperately. You can just assign one of the spare injector drives to act as a coil output. Sorry for the confusion. Tom had recieved his information from me. So don't blame him, Tom is an excellent tuner, and I would trust him tuning my own cars. He is definately qualified. Again sorry for the bad info.

Jason.

 

Thank you for the info Jason.
Is there a way to get in contact with somebody at aem that can really help me here, AND KNOWS THE INS AND OUTS OF THE AEM SYSTEM? AND QUOTE ME A SYSTEM,
By tom I will have to wait till the end of nex week.

Regards,

Bruno

 

I do NOT go into the 3rd gen section.&nbsp I don't recognize his nick.&nbsp I know who Jason Siebel is though.&nbsp I actually shook hands with him at SEMA '01 - I doubt he even remembers that (he probably shook a bazillion hands during the convention).

I question his "facts", cause we have one of the ONLY Cosmo manuals in the U.S. - I base all my information from this manual.&nbsp The manual states that the Cosmo 20B runs 6, discrete ingition channels.&nbsp It actually only runs two control channels per leading or trailing - actual coil signal and another toggle signal.&nbsp The toggle signal switches from three different states to toggle between front, middle, or rear rotor.&nbsp I bet 99.99% of you guys did not know this...



-Ted

 

True Ted, I'm sure Jason does not have deep knowledge
of 20B's
But I'm sure he will research it and
program a patch that will address that issue in the future....

 

Yes, I am not all that familier with 20B's, with the 120 degree firing sequence, we can run it with 6 seperately controlled coils. Bruno, you can talk to me about what you need. I can't give you pricing, Tom and I spoke today at the Sema Import autosalon about your car, and I would love to help out with it. Call me at AEM, and I can answer your questions. The only question I have ever had about the 20b is the firing sequence because I only had second hand knowledge. We can still run it with no problem.

Jason.

 

1) Their racing department is called "Mazda Motorsports" http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...0001&langId=-1
2) They thought that split timing was so important that their endurance road racing 3-rotor and 4-rotor engines long ago ditched the factory ECU and installed Motec units which fire the plug simutaneously for more horsepower.
3) The colliding flame front horror stories are long lost tales from the ancient days of carburetors.
4) I also do not understand why this is not easily understood, which is why I must assume that those who race with a timing split must either be high-boost drag racers or ignorant road racers. I still do not understand why drag racers need the split, but I don't drag race, so I will just assume that they know what they are doing.

 

Normal aspirated engines will run a higher HP running the L & T together. thats a fact.

At low RPM the engine emissions will be lower with a 15 degree split.

Now Lets say you are running 28 psi of boost and you have the L & T together.
My question to you is how accrurate is your PMS to fire the plugs together? You certanly dont what the T fire 1 or 2 degrees before L.

When ones try to get big power out of a rotary engine, more than 16 psi it is esencial to have the ignition timing at maximun allow by gasoline. If you dyno your engine at 16 psi with the L& T together you will get a higher egt reading and less hp than if have a split.

Dont you think that your turbo will last longer with a lower egt?

 

Jason,
Apparently you have completely ignored my posts back in 1/29/02 on https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=2
AND PM's in which I wanted to seriously discuss the AEM 20B compabilities.

As you FINALLY realized, one cannot wastespark a 20B because it is phased at 120deg.
Okay, I would like other answers/feedback/solution for other issues regarding the AEM's 20B capabilities:

1) Are the 6 discrete channels for the individually programmable for load and rpm timing controls? This is in regards to the controversial "live" split timing everyone is all fired up about. Not to get into a discussion of why and if "live" split timing is necessary, I would like to know if the AEM unit has this capability or not. Mazda OEM fires the 20B with the "live" split timing.

2) Since you mentioned these are 6 direct channels to fire the ignition, I can safely assume it will not fire the stock Cosmo 20B ignitors via the "double-toggle" method. This would mean this setup will require 6 single channel ignitors and coils. Are these discrete ignition channels programmable for constant duty "smart" ignitors or dwell-control "dumb" ignitors?
I'm asking this because aftermarket ignitors and ignition systems for the 20B setup will be costly, in addition to the ECU. I like to know what can work and what can't.

3) The stock 20B uses the same Crank Angle Sensor (CAS) as the FC 13B's, not the FD 13BREW's. These are fundamentally the same systems but with different trigger angles and offsets. Can the AEM unit be programmable for the different trigger angles and offsets?
If it is programmable, then doesn't it make the AEM unit one step closer to making the unit available for a FC application? (The other two major obstacles I see for the FC application is the ignition output toggle and change in ECU header for the earlier 86-88 FC's.)

In my opinion, your claim that the FD AEM unit can be configured to drive the 20B seems almost impossible because it requires a change in the ignition event timing. This is similar to saying that the AEM Honda 4cyl unit can be configured for use on the 6cyl engines.

Of course I realize the AEM standalone unit will probably drive the 20B adequately in the waste spark 6cyl mode, but it does not make the AEM unit stand out compared to other standalones on the market.

This post is not meant as a flame, but an actual inquiry of the product, for the second time. And since you/AEM chose to advertise/market/hype such a product on this forum, I feel that it is beneficial to the public to address these inquiries on this forum. Please reply to this post on this forum if possible.

PK

 

First of all, you can take the AEM 4cyl unit and run a 6 cylinder or even a 10 cylinder car with it. The only thing that makes it a 4 cylinder unit, is the calibration, and what it is wired to.

Second you can control the FC or FD with a Honda unit if you want to wire the car. OUR DEAL IS ON THE PLUG N PLAY.

Third, there is no impossibility about running a 20B ALL 6 Channels are independently controlled in software, meaning you tell it when to fire.

Fourth, the stock ignitors on the 20B do not concern me at all the software can be configured to provide the proper trigger to make it work. We run the stock ignitor on the FD with no problem, even the stock ignitor on the Supra which determines dwell on it's own. The ignitor only cares about the type of input signal it recieves, rising 5v falling 5v etc... this is all software configurable.

Jason.

 

.Ok . Do not I mean do not buy shiet from Tom .I have like 20 people that got ripped of by him and mest up there cars . I spoke with a local girl that has a fd and she got her turbos rebuild and a clutch put in by TOM .she paid like 4000 $ now that a rip of .After 4k her car still ran like shiet . So my word of advice stay away from Tom !!
Good luck !!
Dan