DRTHVDR

iTrader: (7)

^^^ There is one thing.....they don't want on grass there which is why we were moved last year. Remember you had to sit down there and direct others to the TOP.

Turbo II

iTrader: (1)

I had permission from the TVA for us to park on the grass last year. but I don't think it would be problem if we just couldn't cruise through there for pics.

Turbo II

iTrader: (1)

Phil if needed I can contact the TVA again like last year and get us permission. As long as we stay off the grass as a group run (can't do anything about someone going down there on their own over the weekend) when we pass through it wouldn't be a problem.

STREET RACING IS BAD MK

Damn now im on the fence with banning ppl. At first I was all for banning, now I'm kinda half and half. I'm going with case by case.

Turbo II

iTrader: (1)

OK, back on the thread subject. I've tossed the ban thing around in my head for hours since I was in the group the wreck happened. At first I thought one way, then read alot of good points, thought the other way... so on and so forth.

I was all for the ban to begin with, because it's not a case of only us being safe but anyone who is up there reguardless of what their driving on Saturday. Now that I think about it, it's the worst time and day of the week to be doing what we were doing in that group for anybody. What Joey did was wrong. Even though he had suspension mods and driving experience you just don't jump on the tail end of a group making one of the fastest runs without 1. Having ever driven the Dragon and 2. Not tested out how your new suspension is going to react, no matter how good a driver you are.

I had been up there since Thursday "testing out" since I had added front and rear strut bars a little over a month ago to what I had last year. In fact I was "testing" the car on the drive up there Thursday and I found I had some oversteer and then learned how to take advantage of it at the Gap doing runs before Saturday. Anyway, what I'm saying is I knew the car would be different and drove accordingly untill I had learned my car AND the road again.

I know Joey and like him but I think what bothers me most about this situation is this and I quote:

"As most of you know, I had just installed a new suspension in the Miata. Tokico Illuminas, stock springs, FCM bumpstops. Makes for a great handling great feeling car even on the stiffest settings.

I skipped out of the meet at the dam early since I was in a non-rotary car so I could drive the dragon by myself. The trip was fun but uneventful, I parked it on the other side next to the lake in the gravel and waited for the rest of the rotards. Afterwards, I got in a group to go back to the other side. I took up the rear, since I was still somewhat unfamiliar with the capabilities of the car and didn't want to slow the FD's down, even though I SHOULD be able to take the Dragon just as fast as they can.

Everything was going well, we hadn't even gotten to the hard part of the dragon yet. It is the second or third curve after the lookout, where it curves to the left, goes straight for a few feet, then curves back to the right. When I curved left, I lost traction. I got the nose pointed in the right direction again, but I was still sliding to the left side of the road, and I never regained traction. I went off the bank on the left side, and slammed into the dirt, which was more like a big pile of mulch (thank GOD.) The car was almost vertical, I had to climb out of the passenger side."

Like I said I like Joey and hate to bust on him or put a crack in our freindship but to me the section in red speaks for itself and the safety of everyone is more important than anything else.

Would banning him or anyone else do any good. I'm starting to doubt it. I doubt he will try something like this again but the threat of a ban most likey won't keep others from "loosing" it. There are plenty of speeches about be safe, don't speed, don't chase the car in front and don't cross the yellow line. I'm thinking having him or one of us speak about what happened and other issues before we take off on runs after the meet would help more than a ban.

SPOautos

The ban situation is basically irrelevant now. The purpose of the ban was because we dont want the event organizers liable for orgranizing a group of people to do something specific and someone wrecking....people that wreck werent going to be allowed the next year. The problem is that there is always going to be someone that *thinks* he can keep up with the car in front of him or brake as fast as the car in front of him and wreck. The solution to the problem is to make adjustement so there is never that type of liability in the first place. If you go to this link we have since changed the structure to be more preemptive. The EVENT will no longer organize group runs thru the gap. We are going to be at a event area all day and people can come and go and run the gap whenever they want to. If they want to get together and form groups with buddies and such thats fine, if they want to run it once or 10 times thats fine. Doesnt matter. We arent going to organize those types of high risk runs anymore so there is no need to ban anyone that wrecks. Everyone will still have just as much fun if not more fun and the Event organizers wont have to worry with the liability. Even liability aside....if I organized a group of people to go ***** to the walls on the gap and someone died I would feel partialy responsible and it would be a hard thing for me to live with. The event does not need to be organizing and supporting illegal group runs thru the gap. Not to say you cant do them...just that its not something we are going to organize.

If you havent already....go to the link and read about the new structure of the event. I think everyone will like it!


http://www.rx7forum.com/showthread.php?t=646179

Thanks!

RoughRex

HAHAHA! I just had an idea! We should start a plaque of shame! We could bring it to the event each year and put it on display so people can see who has wrecked in the past! It's like the opposite of bragging rights! The embarassment may be enough to hold some ppl back.

DarkKnightFC

I would be perfectly happy to speak if given the chance. I had thought about raising my hand when phil originally mentioned the accident last year. But I held my tounge because he had other speakers and I know that everyone wanted to get to driving anyway. Maybe I should have spoken but it wouldn't have helped he who had the accident because he wasn't there to listen.

Chris

SPOautos

Yea that a good idea. No matter if we organize anything or not we can still have something similar to our own "tree of shame" that the bikes have. It would be a testimate to the newbies. Thanks for the idea to consider.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I didn't want to mention this until I've gotten a reply from you and JKM (via PMs)..

But I have asked both of them to give a speech at the next year's event. I think its a good idea that we learn from people's mistakes and mishaps. JKM have already agree to do so.. and I guess by this post, you might be interested in this idea??

DarkKnightFC

Certainly. Thanks for the opportunity.

Chris

Fero313

iTrader: (1)

WHOO!! Chris gets to come! at least until the speech and then he is out!

anewconvert

iTrader: (1)

I'm glad banning is off the table. And I agree 100% that its in Phil's, and EVERYONES, best interest to not involve driving in the orgnaized event. Waiver or not, Phil could be liable if something happens. A waiver is only as strong as the lawyer trying to break it. Its too much chance to be taking for phil, a sponsor, or any group leaders.

The event needs to have NOTHING to do with driving. Park, eat, take pictures, chat and then end it. From that point forward it needs to be a non-event. If people want to go off on their own and drive the Dragon, thats their choice. If they want to run it solo, or have a procession, that is their choice. Putting ANY official control on a drive after the food and pics puts too many people into a liable state. Leave driving to the individual. Dont sanction it. Dont sponsor it. Dont make it at all, in any form, official.


BC

PerkyStina

Well said! I think this is a good idea. The caravan through the dragon can be a dangerous thing, for the fact that we have no control over all the other people, and following that closely together can lead to a tragic pileup of rotaries on the dragon.

I like the idea of having speeches made by willing volunteers about their past experiences at the dragon.

I think my favorite thing I learned this past event was the hand signals the motorcyclists use to communicate! That made the whole event SO much better!

I also liked how they clarified the dangers and reasons that the bikes don't pull off the road for cars to pass, since the pull off areas are gravel. Different things like this that were taught to us really helped the drives on the dragon go much more smoothly.

darthrotary

i agree about the hand signals, that was cool. came in handy when the miata guy was off the road. got signals from bikes before we came to the wreck and others and i returned the signal( tapping on the roof of the car to other bikesand cars) after the wreck. and if bikes do pull over they really try to give you good warning so they have time to slow way down to do it safely.

My5ABaby

iTrader: (7)

Personally, I think people need to be smarter about how they drive.

I hate to single them out, but ESPECIALLY teenagers. I'm 22 and remember what it's like feeling invincible. Teenagers also, in general, don't know what their cars are capable of as much as older people and ones that have owned/driven their cars for many years. You can say I'm stereotyping, and I am. But we all know what I'm saying isn't wrong.

I 1/2 setup and drove with a "slow group". I found it easy to keep up, but also still had fun doing so. For me, the fun part is pushing my car through the turns. That's what I can't do anywhere else I drive. I don't go particularly fast on the "straights" (even for my N/A) and I don't brake as hard as I could (compared to what I could do I brake very early, brake fade > me), but I still have fun in the turns. I can redline it to 90 on the interstate, but I can't go around a turn like the ones at the Dragon anywhere around town.

One problem with people comes when they try to keep up with cars/people that they know are on the edge of their limits. Sure, I could of kept up with people a lot faster than the ones I went with, but I chose not to stretch my car and my driving.

I also took into consideration that it was only my 2nd time at the Dragon. It's not a particularly complicated road. The curves are straight forward in their layout (uniform curve throughout), but I still don't know what's on the other side of every curve, so I drove accordingly.

If you REALLY want to test yourself and your car, then do it alone. It's not worth the risk to try to keep up faster people (even if you theoretically could) and people should realize that.

Another importantly thing I'd like to say is give 2 seconds. For my speeds (30-60 usually), that's really not that far so you don't feel like you're falling behind someone or going too slow. However, it gives you a safe distance when going into a corner. Granted you won't have 2 seconds of visibility while going through a turn, but at least by that time you know you don't have brake fade.

I think everyone needs to use the Miata as a learning experience (sorry to single you out again, but you fucked up and deserve it). He was lucky to go the way he did and into the bank. If it was on another turn, he would of gone straight off the side and would most likely be hospitalized or dead.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

You bring up a great point.. As me and Stephen are brain storming about this regarding going to the Dam for a group shoot or having a huge caravan thru the gap.

Any suggestions? Again, I think some of you guys are starting to see why waiver was put in place from the beginning, even though we were on the "public road".

Turbo II

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, it would be nice to be welcomed/invited back to Deals Gap year after year by the businesses, LEO and whomever not from just being on the roads but everything else we are involved in while we are there. Did that make sense or was it a rambling sentence hah!

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Greg, It makes sense to me.. I think that was another reason of me wanting to put a ban in the beginning. Its politics! Something goes wrong, someone wants to blame someone. I'm sure some of you will disagree and come up with another solution.. But its just easier to ban than go thru bunch of hoops and explaining to people why? Example, If Blunt county officer asks me what happened to the guy last year, Its simpler for me to say, "he's ban at this years event".

But as you all know, I'm working on it so I would look good and the event look good front of others... hence we now have a solution to the banning..