Wankelpowered7

Listen, i was in the green/orange Miata that was in the group with the guy that crashed. I was the 3rd car back behind FD,FC,ME,FC,FD,other MIATA and a BMW Z4.

The leader of our group was not driving crazy-wrecklessly, belive me. I drive the N.Ga mountains a lot and with many different groups of cars. This particular line was not crossing lines, pushing cars or anything like that. Speeding? Mildly, we could have been going much faster...much.

The guy who lost control did so at his own fault. No one person can be held accountable for someone attempting to "keep up". So dont blame the group or anyone else for ONE persons poor judgement.

That has to be one of the most aseenine statements you can possably make. You sir, are retarded. You are the epitome of why the rest of the US makes fun of Alabama...so please stay there next year.

Me and my girlfriend were at the Dragon as part of the whole weekend. No we were not registered with the Rotary group or any others, we just came up on that day. So what are you going to do, close down the road and take names of the people who are "supposed" to be there?? Yeah , right. Also, the guy who lost control was part of YOUR event as he also owns a 1st gen. HE WAS NOT A RANDOM JUMP-RIGHT-IN WITH THE ROTARY CROWD person. I myself was ASKED to partcipate in the final run on the basis i am a former rotary member and know several of you folks ( hi Tim benton!!! you still read SCC?? lol). And i also understand driving on such roads, and it was known. Bitching and whining that somone passed judgement is not for you to determine their punishment, thats up to the state of Tennessee. You have the control of letting who you want register in your events, but you're sure as hell can't stop people from joining you on a public road. And who are you to pass the person in questions driving skills? Personally, i don't know him, but i can't assume that he is a crappy driver because he goofed a turn. Hell, i have trophies from my drifting competitions right here... does that prove im a good road driver or that i can't **** up? We are all human and make mistakes. Who knows, you might be able to put this guy on a race track and get your *** waxed.... so don't pass judgement.

We all make mistakes. Said and done. By the way, as far as i know.... no one is focusing on the "rotary guys" were being wreckless.... some people are blowing this up beyond what it needs to be.

So because i was there in a Miata having fun, im going to be unwelcomed next year? I hope not.....

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I'll say this to this thread and the other.. It was quite harsh me to "ban" those who caused accidents or involved in an accident. By reading most of the members comments, some of you bring up great points! What I will say is this.. I'm trying to come up with a solution where I can be happy and all of you could be happy!

So, LET IT ALL OUT here and voice your opinion! Because at the end, more info I know better we will resolve this issue!

Wankelpowered7

spankle my wankle

I dont think a ban is a suitable punishment. The only way someone should be banned is by purposefully wrecking someone else on the dragon, and you cant ban someone from using the road so whats to stop them from driving with us when we go out on it. I think i read somewhere phil that you said you wouldn't let someone who got banned from going to a place that is private or rented and im not sure if you mean fontana or not but i met darknightfc this year and he is a good guy, and if he gets banned and wants to come up to a cabin me, paul, and dj rent then ill sure let him. I don't want to make you mad but how can you say someone can't come over to a cabin im paying for. Not sure this helps any but the ban just doesnt seem fair and doesnt seem practical anyways. Im curious to see your new solution though.
Seth

Agent of Chaos

Glad to see you're coming down to earth from the first message you put accross. Banning isomeone over one minor accident (even though it could of been worse like a bus load of Nuns dring by at the time) is over the top, but yes some things should be done to help prevent accidents in the future.
Requiring valid drivers licenses and proof of insurance is a very good idea for a driving event such as this at the time of registration. Also when registering, or paying for the T-Shirt and lunch (however you want to refer to it as) you should require the waiver to be signed at that time, but I'm sure you see that after this year. These at minimum should let people know before hand that this is a dangerous road and all traffic regulations are in effect, with it up to the individual to obey those regualtions or not.
Another suggestion might be to request previous track, driving course, and even past Dragon experience during registration. Specially if you plan for more organized runs in the future, you can pre-arrange groups according to skill level. A lot of work, but may be worth it.
Note: another benifit of collecting more information for grouping would be to get better action shots either through group photographers or our favorite photographer KillBoy.

Fero313

iTrader: (1)

I agree with previous others stating that the drives through the gap should not be DGRR sanctioned. As far as MRCCAL would be concerned... the dam meet, and the banquet would be it... You wouldn't have to worry about groups and such... The waiver should state such distinctions and therefor what happens on the gap itself has nothing to do with DGRR. Now that I've said that, any accidents will not make the meet's reputation any better, but one small (in the end) accident a year with no injuries isn't that bad of a record in my book. I mean how many bikes go down and get injured or die?? and maybe this isn't the best solution, but we have a year to figure some hybrid solution out, so lets get creative... but I voted no to banning, with all due respect.

anewconvert

iTrader: (1)

What guidelines wasn't he following? Or, more to the point, what guidelines wasnt he following that others in the frist group WERE following?

I guess you mised the part where the group said it was ok if he came along despite their misgivings about a miata keeping up safely. I guess that is what gave him the right to join the group.

Oh, and he pays taxes on part of the ******* road. That also gives him the right to join in at ANY point he feels like. Go rent out a track if you wnat to control who drives when and where.

Because I pay taxes in the state of north carolina to drive on NC roads, THAT is why I think its ok to drive on a public road. i dont give a damn WHO is having an organized event on that road at that time. If I pulled up to a public lot, saw a bunch of cars take off and wanted to join them on a public road, I could, and you cant do a damn thing about it.

Further he didnt act like an ***. he lost control. It happens. The fact that he aked to join the group further shows he isnt an ***. get off your high horse.

Why?! Because he made a mistake and your holier-than-thou *** didnt?!? get over yourself. his actions have nothing to do AT ALL with the part of the event that phil has any control over. The MOMENT you left fontana dam this weekend you left ALL control over the event. I dont give two ***** if Phil organized a drive. Its not in anyones control over who gets involved in the drive. If you look at the videos shot on the side of the road you will notice that it was not a steady procession of RX7's, but was in fact a couple groups here and there with LOTS of other groups mixed in. I dont care if Phil said "This is an RX7 event until we get back to the carolina side" he doesnt have the authority OR ability to make it such. The event ended the moment the group left Fontana. Period.




Im glad you have spoken for all of us. because clearly the others in here who are saying dont do banning, which if you havent noticed is the leading option in the poll, dont agree with you. I, for instance, would love to have Joey back next year. I'd like to have darknightFC back next year too. Both are real nice guys who had an accident. **** happens, move on.


I'll say it again. banning is a stupid idea. His actions has NO effect on the event at fontana dam. If he had shown up drunk, stolen food, or gotten in a fight at the dam that would be one thing, but he didnt. He acted respectfully the whole time. Accidents happen. Would you punish yourself if YOU had an accident Phil? What about you Brad. Would self impose a lifetime ban on yourself if you fucked up? You dont need to be doing 70 mph to lose control. Frankly, based on your remarks made in this thread I would guess you wouldnt. You seem like the type to cast the first stone.


BC

hus

Some of you still are not getting this. And you obviously didn't read my entire post and just picked out that one line. Anyway, why is it so hard to understand the word "participate"? All I'm saying is that Phil puts this together for the Rotary Community to all participate in but to do so in the way he ask. Not because Phil owns the Gap or is Gov. of TN. or NC but for safety and lack of confusion. But because people want to join in on things when they want without any consideration of others or what others had to go through to organize such things, it causes more confusion and an unsafe environment.

Fine, you were invited to make the drive by someone you know, and I bet that you also knew your limits and or listened to the group leader go over the precautions. Great! But what I know of the guy who wrecked is that he knew of the waiver, refused to sign it (his own choice, no biggy), didn't care to attend any of the events and was said to be by one of his own people that he came with...hot-headed and ballsy. This same person said HE WAS NOT READY FOR THE GAP. An yet he joined the fastest group. He is being singled out because of these things and the hours and hours of discussion among people of his own group and some of the rest of us.

Geez, sorry I called the guy an asshat and sorry calling anewconvert an assmunch but I still think some of you are posting about this and not knowing the full story behind it.

Oh one more thing, I don't think I ever said anything about anyone's driving skills. Anybody can wreck up there no matter how much driving time you've had. I myself had pretty bad motorcycle wreck on the dragon back in 2001. It's just about this one guy and the circumstances surrounding it and I know that you "Wanklepowered7" were in this group but you might not have known the other things at work here.

Brad

I don't think I'll keep myself in Alabama next year either but thanks for the advice

hus

I'm not speaking for everyone and not trying to. It's all matter of respecting what others went through to organize things for safety. That's all. I apologized for my name calling rant in my last post and I'll apologize again. And as the part about banning myself or Phil banning his self, that's what I made my original post about at the top of page 2. I have lost control on the Dragon on a TL1000R back in 2001 so I know about screwing up and I was acting stupid and no, nobody banned me for life...but I can only go by what I heard as a group of us were discussing this whole issue Saturday night, and like I said a few NC people that were with this guy said that he wasn't ready for the Gap and he is way to ballsy. To me that makes him irresponsible to join the fastest group whether he was invited or not.

Again, I apologize if I came across for speaking for everybody else. I would just like see people have a little more respect for what others worked so hard for and try to keep everyone safe. I didn't Saturday and I don't now believe that this guy cared about causing confusion or safety or respect when he made the decision he made. Make what you want of it.

Brad

anewconvert

iTrader: (1)

Well, thanks for the apology. Seriously, that might be the first time I have seen that on this forum.


As for the miata driver bneing hotheaded and ballsy, that wouldnt be my impression based on the few times I have driven with him before DGRR. But Im not his best friend, so i cant say with any certainty.

BC

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I just love this forum!!

Look guys! I know a lot of you are appreciative of my hard work and stated that you are and wanting to help! And I myself is appreciative of some of your support and such.

But when I come on here and when my intention is viewed as "rediculous" or "stupid", it just doesn't make me want to continue organizing it. I'm sure you all want me to be mature and understanding of your specific situation and I want you guys to try to do the same. I've spend great deal of time organizing it and I was just mearly looking for a way for people to be "safer" on the Gap. Banning and such is to give more pressure so that people will think twice about doing more danagerous stuff on the Dragon..

Obviously, now I'm looking for different route to fix this issue. Not just because some of you just like to argue about it, but also because some of you brought up pretty valid points.

What I could say now is that I'm working on a solution to this so that you guys have a freedom to do whatever you guys want to do up there. I need to make sure about few things and once everything is in plan, I will let all of you know. Also, I want some of you to understand, I do come off as a hard head but very open minded.

Please understand that Im doing this for the community and not for my personal gain. I as much as most of you on here, love the drive more than standing around looking at cars. This is why I'm bit frustrated as I didn't even get to drive the Dragon.... Instead, cleaning up **** people left at the Dam. And now listening to some of you bitch doesnt help! So, please see where I'm coming from and why I'm kind of in a pissed off mode.

My5ABaby

iTrader: (7)

I think banning is a fine idea, but not for those who screwed up this, or previous years. Grandfather clause type thing.

dbragg

iTrader: (7)

easy solution i keep posting all over this forum:

stop trying to control the driving. you be in charge of the meet and greet, lodging, the banquet, and thats it. as far as any driving goes, its all every man/woman for himself/herself. that way you drive at your own risk and no one can be held at fault.

why is this such a good idea? i got a better question, what is everyone bitching about?
the waiver, the issue with minors, banning, wrecks, wreckless driving. now, with doing this it will eliminate ALL those arguements.

why would someone need to sign a waiver to sit and hangout? you dont. if you arent trying to control the driving then its not an issue. the deal with the minors, same as above. if you arent in charge of them driving, theres absolutely no need to tell them they cant come. you cant ban someone for wrecking if you dont try to control the driving. see, this is the most obvious and easy solution. all it needs is for you to not want to control every minute of the weekend.

SPICcnmGT

This would be like going to the track, and during lunch someone shows up and just starts running for free. Well maybe not that extreme but it is kinda odd that someone would go to DGRR and do nothing but run when we had groups. Just one of those things that is kinda fishy even if their is no real reason.

I agree with this to a point that for sure the first guy shouldn't be ban, maybe maybe not on the guy this year.

The waiver's are incase someone messes up the area we meet at. It's under Phil's name, and if something is messed up by someone else then he would have to pay for it out of his pocket. It's to keep him from being liable for someone else doing something stupid.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

aws140. A lot of stuff you said is something I'm working on. But as an organizer and someone representing rotary community, I am trying my best to show that our number one goal is safety! Which means, some of the drive up there needs to be controlled to a point. Hence we had group leaders and such for the first round thru the gap. As of now, I'm leading toward drive to be seperate from the event. But still wanting to provide information so that people know that it is a public road we drive on and that they should be careful. Again, this whole banning is to deter people from going all out on the Dragon. Its not just to punish those but mainly for those to think twice before doing so. Obviously others think different and I'm trying to come up with some other method..

You do as location is either rented and under my name. If we all hung out informally at a public place, Sure no waiver is needed.

DRTHVDR

iTrader: (7)

You don't live in the real world, my friend. This country and it's liberal-pathetic-pussies who think that everyone else is responsible for their actions FORCES Phil to ask for waiver. He doesn't want to do it, he HAS to. People who have lost family in a fatal crash caused by someone who was at a friends house for a party, got drunk, and hit someone on the way home, they sued the HOST OF THE PARTY; NOT the ******* drunk who hit them.

As soon as a single dollar passes from party to party, or an individual puts their name on an event (Phil has done both) according to the idiotic lawyers in this country, that person is liable for EVERYONE that attends. It sucks but it's just the way it is. I for one support ANY decision Phil makes to protect himself.

You should be trying everything in you power to assist him in next years event instead of telling him what he can or can't do. Why don't you hold your own event? Untill then, help instead of bitching.

superfastrx7

I believe Phil would be best protected if the event involved the actual meeting at the dam, sealing the discounts at the Village, bringing in speakers to go over safety & the Banquet and that's all. That's all.

Anytime you are involved picking a group leader, determining who is allowed to drive in groups based on driving experience, type or car, condition of cars and or age for that matter.... you are then I believe too involved and god forbid something unforeseeable were to happen on the Gap then who would then be liable? The driver? The event holder? The group leader for going too fast? I believe ALL would be responsible in the court of law. I am not sure anyone here wants to be responsible for someone else's wrong doing.

I am not sure if Phil and or the event are carrying any sort of liability insurance.... Like most tracks do just for the what if. R U?

Great event, look forward to it next year but when you make your decision Phil and I am glad you are taking all of this in and being porfessional about it but ultimately you have to do the right thing for the group and while making that decision you need to focus on what is best for you too.... since you are really not making money or anything here.....

Having said all that, you just may want to consider giving all drivers a safety meeting (and making it mandatory) and then you are off the hook and all the rest of us on our own (and just hope for the best). You can then sleep well at night even if somthing went wrong.

dbragg

iTrader: (7)

drvthvdr- im giving good advice. i didnt say the waiver was a horrible idea. did you once see me bitch about the waiver? hell no. ill sign whatever waiver phil wants me to sign. im just saying if the drive isnt associated with DGRR then phil isnt liable for anything that happens there. period.

phil-- i didnt think about the dam area being rented under your name. sorry. the waiver isnt a bad idea, but its not such a big deal if the driving isnt part of the DGRR meet. im just trying to help you out here. i love DGRR. its by far my favorite car event of the year. some things got crazy this year due to it being much larger than ever before. life is about trial and error. if it doesnt work at one years event, change it for the up coming year. ill do everything in my power to insure DGRR continues. hell, if you want to call it quits, let me know.

STREET RACING IS BAD MK

I agree chris should stay and Joey is out. Maybe we should have one or two Case Officers to handle case by case problems instead of having Phil carry all the weight of the event. By officer I dont mean a cop.

jparker7

iTrader: (1)

this is one of the dumbest threds Ive ever seen on Rx7 club. Wrecks are accidents thats all. they are not on purpose.

hus

ah geez!

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Glad to hear its your favorite event! I'm working on few things right now.. I just want some of you to just be patient and give me some slack! All your ideas have been considered before and now and I think just by the votes so far, I'm leaning toward making the drive NOT part of the event. But in order to do so, I need to think of few other details. Thats what i'm working on and hopefully I'll have answers very soon!

Also, those of you who wants to help out, once the registration opens, SIGN UP ASAP!

This will help me get sponsors and coverage for the event as people wants to know who's attending and how many!

Turbo II

iTrader: (1)

Phil I still like the idea of trying to do one long caravan to the lake for pictures and video of the cars even if it's not an "official" part of the event. Maybe after we get to the lake that's where it becomes.... goodbye, good luck, you're on your own!

SPICcnmGT

^Thats not a bad idea. Instead of driving through the gap, why not about 1-2pm we drive to the dam for pictures, then everyone can go as they please at say 230-3pm.

Turbo II

iTrader: (1)

^You know that makes more sense. Cruise the lower parking lot below the dam. That's a great area for pics. Would be able to get pics from above, longer line of cars... lots of potential.